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Bernie Sanders slaps down Rand Paul: Health care as slavery

imstellar28 says...

I feel like I'm reading yahoo answers here.

Can you guys really not draw a distinction between personal morality, which is a choice like religion or sexuality -- and something like human rights which is a philosophical truth? A philosophical truth is something we discover via rational argument, not divine justification or statements like "of course it is, we're talking about life or death."

I want to believe that anyone can do anything they put their mind to, but I'm really starting to wonder whether there is simply an IQ minimum for being able to generate your own ideas about certain subjects.

Bernie Sanders slaps down Rand Paul: Health care as slavery

imstellar28 says...

If you think we are morally obligated to provide healthcare to people, fine, that's your opinion. Anyone can have whatever set of morals they please. If you think the government should pay for such things - hey, that's your vote to cast. But why is there the need to pretend this is a "human right" when everyone in this thread knows damn well it isn't. There is no logical or philosophical leg to stand on when making that argument. Rights are restrictions placed on social interactions between humans (no stealing, no slavery, no murder, etc.) not a guarantee for material goods or services.

If you think everyone in society should have a car, 3 meals a day, and a personal doctor feel free to start a cult or religion and get a bunch of followers who agree with you. If you are really motivated, start a business and save up enough money to feed all your neighbors and provide them with houses and healthcare -- but keep the "divine justification" for your opinions out of a philosophical argument because not only is it complete rubbish, it's intellectually dishonest.

Citing "human rights" as justification for your political opinions is as vacuous an argument as pulling out the bible and quoting scripture.

NetRunner (Member Profile)

imstellar28 says...

Your analogy isn't valid, but even if it was it doesn't really answer what I am saying. It's fine if you think people are morally obligated to feed the hungry, or you want the government tax dollars to be spent on such things, but why is there the need to call it a human right? It's misleading and intellectually dishonest.

If I have the right to be fed, then you have the obligation to feed me. If you really believe that why won't you buy me dinner?


In reply to this comment by NetRunner:
I can't provide habeas corpus or freedom of religion for the whole world either. It doesn't change my view on whether I think every human being is entitled to it.

For that matter I tend to think people have a "right to life", but nobody can abolish death, or even just murder. I think we can do a lot for starvation and sickness, and probably a lot more about murder as well, but none of these things come free.

So I ask people to willingly agree to legal arrangements that establish these things as legal rights to services, and legal obligations to taxes, at least within the region known as "the United States".

Then they call this a violation of their rights, because, you know, taxes are evil or something. At a minimum, they come up with some arbitrary meta-definition of rights that they insist should supersede my own conception of rights.

And to be frustrating, I don't have rigid rules surrounding the limits of what people's rights should be. I tend to think of it in terms of what kind of injustice it would be to deny it to someone. Denying me a Ferrari doesn't seem so unjust. Denying someone the ability to see a doctor when they're ill, even if they're a convicted murderer, doesn't seem right.

In reply to this comment by imstellar28:
Stealing is the absence of an action, which is why it is a valid human right. I'm not stealing anything from you (of my own free will) so what other action do you wish me to perform? Healthcare, or food or water for that matter, is not the absence of an action but rather material goods. If you wish to claim such things are a right (a noble goal) then you would have to ensure that you can provide those things to the 7 billion inhabitants of this planet. I wish someone could do such things but it's clearly not possible -- hence why material goods or services can never be a "human right."

NetRunner (Member Profile)

imstellar28 says...

Stealing is the absence of an action, which is why it is a valid human right. I'm not stealing anything from you (of my own free will) so what other action do you wish me to perform? Healthcare, or food or water for that matter, is not the absence of an action but rather material goods. If you wish to claim such things are a right (a noble goal) then you would have to ensure that you can provide those things to the 7 billion inhabitants of this planet. I wish someone could do such things but it's clearly not possible -- hence why material goods or services can never be a "human right."

In reply to this comment by NetRunner:
You really should try to walk through why you think this is somehow a trap for people who think healthcare is a right.

I feel like I've been stolen from because my government taxes me. Send me a trillion dollars to raise an army to overthrow them.

Don't bother with the Paypal, I won't accept your fraudulent fiat currency. Gold bars are the only form of payment I'll accept.

C'mon, cough it up, this is a matter of human rights, and you have an obligation to me that extends beyond any form of government practical ideas about how to best guarantee those rights.


In reply to this comment by imstellar28:
We aren't talking about taxes we are talking about human rights. If it is human right you have an obligation to me that extends beyond any form of government, yes?

So, do you want my PayPal address?
>> ^NetRunner:

>> ^imstellar28:
Also, I'm feeling a little under the weather today. Can you guys go ahead and send $100 my way so I can pick up some medicine at the store?

Yes, as long as what we're really talking about is me paying my taxes, and that gets used to pay for your (and my) medical bills.

Bernie Sanders slaps down Rand Paul: Health care as slavery

imstellar28 says...

RedSky, do you draw any distinction between what a person should do, and what a person is legally obligated to do?
>> ^RedSky:

How is the hypocrisy not immediately evident?
In the same speech he refers to mandatory health care as slavery and yet seems to have no qualms with either the Hippocratic oath as a principle and emergency room health care as a principle which implies the same thing.

Bernie Sanders slaps down Rand Paul: Health care as slavery

imstellar28 says...

What does starving or thirsty have to do with it? Are you suggesting only really sick people have a right to healthcare? I'm telling you right now I'm hungry and thirsty. If food and water are a right how are you not obligated to provide it to me? Adding the qualifiers "starving or thirsty" and "begging" are just ways in which your mind is dealing with the incongruity of your beliefs. If you want to be logical your statement should be:

"If a person came up to you asking for food/or water would you deny it?"

As an example, does the fact that someone has a lot of money or no money make a difference in whether it is okay to steal? If you can, please name any other "human right" in which a qualifier other than "human" applies.

>> ^EMPIRE:

>> ^imstellar28:
So... dinner and drinks on you?
>> ^EMPIRE:
"(...)you have a right to water, you have a right to food" .... huuuuhh... YEAH you do, you fucking stupid dip shit.


If a starving or thirsty person came up to you on the street begging for food and/or water would you deny it? I certainly wouldn't.

Bernie Sanders slaps down Rand Paul: Health care as slavery

imstellar28 says...

We aren't talking about taxes we are talking about human rights. If it is human right you have an obligation to me that extends beyond any form of government, yes?

So, do you want my PayPal address?
>> ^NetRunner:

>> ^imstellar28:
Also, I'm feeling a little under the weather today. Can you guys go ahead and send $100 my way so I can pick up some medicine at the store?

Yes, as long as what we're really talking about is me paying my taxes, and that gets used to pay for your (and my) medical bills.

Bernie Sanders slaps down Rand Paul: Health care as slavery

Bernie Sanders slaps down Rand Paul: Health care as slavery

TED-Filter Bubbles-Unseen Censorship on the Internet

Killing Us Softly: Advertising's Image of Women

imstellar28 says...

"Over 60 percent of U.S. adult women are overweight, according to 2007 estimates from the National Center for Health Statistics of the Center for Disease Control and Prevention."

Doesn't look like the advertising is having much of an impact, to me.

The Biggest Company You've Never Heard Of

The Biggest Company You've Never Heard Of

imstellar28 says...

@NetRunner

To boil it all down,

Facts:
Serco provides education, military, transportation, and prison infrastructure, among other things. 85% of their employees come from the public sector, and the majority of their revenue comes from taxed income.

Your position:
1. You want the government to provide (fund) the same services Serco does, so no problem (with Serco) here.
2. You also do not mind that the source of funding is taxed income, as opposed to voluntary consumerism.
3. The only thing you seem to care about is that they are a "private" company instead of a "public" company. As far as I can tell, they are only private in name. If it looks like a duck (performs "government" functions), walks like a duck (is staffed by government employees), and sounds like a duck (is funded by the government)..it's a freaking duck. The change you are proposing is merely semantics.

With the amount of business ties and lobbying they probably do, I seriously doubt putting them under Obama is going to make a lick of difference. BP, Shell, and Exxon already seem to have control over our military and I doubt Serco is any different. I'm guessing they are the same guys who bribe federal judges to send innocent kids to jail to fill their prisons.

On the contrary, my position is that:
1. Multinational corporations like Serco are almost always evil, and should probably not exist.
2. Forcing people to fund multi-billion dollar corporations is not the right way to build a better world.
3. People should be able to vote with their dollar, and keep their money in their own communities.

You are arguing against privatization, but Serco is not really a private company. Private companies are not funded by tax revenue. The Mom and Pop diner in your neighborhood, that is a private company. This is just one more way in which people get divided into two camps and waste their time arguing about things which are in reality the same position. Private vs. Public is irrelevant, it makes no difference in this situation as far as I can tell.

The real question here is what is the proper role of government, aka, what should the government be funding with taxpayer money.

The Biggest Company You've Never Heard Of

imstellar28 says...

@NetRunner

There's nothing "small" about a government which takes 30-50% of a person's income and maintains military bases in most countries on the planet. You think the answer is giving more power to elected officials, but what you keep ignoring is that the private sector is made up of the same types of people. I mean, did you not watch this video which said that 85% of Serco's employees came from the public sector? Characters in both groups have the same ambition for power and wealth, so both will make similar decisions when faced with a given situation. The details will vary from person to person but invariably individuals in both groups will vote to increase their own wealth and power, not to make the world a better place.

The monopoly on force (government) should persist only to enforce the rule of law, nothing more. Cultural development is a personal choice and as such must be left to the people because a single person (or group) should not decide the culture of a nation. And yes, I would say that roads, education, telecommunications, healthcare and the like are all cultural characteristics. They have to be because they have only existed for small portions of our history - whereas the rule of law has (conceptually) existed, unchanged, ever since the first two humans learned to communicate with each other.

"Don't fuck with my life and I won't fuck with yours"

What you are effectively suggesting is that we take the same pool of greedy assholes, and instead of dividing them into camp A and camp B, we should put them all under the same command chain (even more centralized power). Worse still, you want to give the very same corporate guys you are angry about the monopoly of force over other people! Don't the likes of Serco, Halliburton, BP, etc. cause enough humanitarian damage as it is, without an explicit license to kill?

The Biggest Company You've Never Heard Of

imstellar28 says...

@Peroxide "unchecked capitalism"

There is no such thing as unchecked capitalism unless the government gets involved and that is precisely what is happening here. It is the consumers role to provide the "checks" in capitalism.

If you disagree with a corporation like Serco, why not simply refrain from giving them your money and let them go out of business? Ah yes, because you don't have a choice in the matter - the government is taking your money and spending it how it sees fit, not how you see fit. That is the problem. We as a cultural group are not making decisions about the kind of world we want to live in, we are subcontracting it to a small majority who are choosing not to make this fleeting existence a better place for all, but rather a richer place for themselves.

Let's be honest, if you were in the same situation could we really trust you to make the right decisions? The fact is there are very few people who could trusted with such a monumental responsibility.



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