It failed?

Most economists agree that the stimulus worked. Not that that fact should stop the Koch Brothers from creating propaganda videos like this one.

Here's a WP article on a few studies: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/did-the-stimulus-work-a-review-of-the-nine-best-studies-on-the-subject/2011/08/16/gIQAThbibJ_blog.
html

Well, if it worked, then I guess we won't be needing another one anytime soon.

Right?

>> ^renatojj:

Well, if it worked, then I guess we won't be needing another one anytime soon.
Right?

Is willful ignorance like yours genetic or is it a life choice?

So from what I understand from the expert: stimulus is good, how we spent it is bad. Right idea, wrong implementation.

>> ^TheFreak:


Is willful ignorance like yours genetic or is it a life choice?
Depends, does dissenting opinion have a place in the twilight zone where you live?

Dissenting opinions and willful ignorance are not mutually exclusive (see: climate change deniers, creationists, Ron Paul supporters, etc.)

@dystopianfuturetoday There's also ignorance when presuming authority over the truth, and ruling out dissenting opinion (see: brainwashed liberals, keynesian economists, Obama supporters, etc.)

Look, I know I'm outnumbered in this predominantly liberal community, so, if you guys are going to gang up on me, could you at least try to keep it civil, and avoid the personal attacks?

My only statement here was: if it worked, we won't be needing another one anytime soon. Right?

Why would that piss anyone off?

I'm not sure that I or anyone in this room ever claimed authority over the truth.

I wish I could say the same for the Paul worshipers: http://rlv.zcache.com/ron_paul_truth_poster-r5ea8117c4f764977a3a4772589a082c5_wvg_400.jpg

And if that weren't audacious enough, Paul worshipers also astoundingly claim authority over love: http://foodforthethinkers.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/ron-paul-love.jpg

Over the years I see to remember you claiming authority over the truth yourself. Should I dig up some of those comments?

It seems that your standard for stimulus success is a perfect economy and complete employment. Are moderate gains not a success in your eyes?

@dystopianfuturetoday I really got to you, didn't I?

Yes, please intimidate me with your links and quoting, didn't work for the post above though, your links are totally bogus. This should be fun!

Let me start this off with an embarassing video of dystopianfuturetoday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Btw, I was talking about TheFreak. To me, he assumes authority over the truth for the experts that say the stimulus was a success. So I can't possibly disagree with them if I'm not being "willfully ignorant".

"Most economists" did not see the collapse coming, so why believe "most economists" know anything now?

The economic collapse was set in motion with the Free Houses for Poor People Act in the 70s, a liberal creation muscled-up during the Clinton years.

Government "guaranteed" bank loans to people who had no business owning homes, because it's "unfair" that not everyone has a house. So, half-coercion, half promising bailouts with taxpayer money.

Even in decades-old systems like Medicare, where you'd think there would be built-in watchdogs, we lose 60 billion A YEAR to fraud, waste and abuse, so how anyone sane thought a one-time scamulus would be closely monitored for fraud...

A similar Nude Eel scamulus was attempted in the 40s with little to no effect. FDR's bacon was only saved by WW2.


Government: If you think the problems are bad, wait till you see our solutions!

There is no problem that the Government cant make worse. And We are worse off now. Obama and teh Democrats pissed away the money and have nothing to show for it. Well OK we have more richer union thugs today than before.

Need to change lies to truth.

**yikes**
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Now we just need shinyblury to somehow link this discussion to Jesus, aaaaand we're done.

Wow...ren really likes to play up the victim angle and the bubble is in full effect.

trolls...they be trollin'

The Stimulus didnt work because it wasnt enough money, because too much money was already stolen, not to mention the fact that the money isnt real! (dwight shrute must support ron paul)

The thieves were rewarded. The game is too rigged.

No political party. Just ass rape of society.

Understand why it hurts now..

Guys, I'm not kidding. The sift really does seem to have a problem with the rampant trolling.

This has nothing to do with left v right. It has to do with the rampant ad-homs, strawmans, and other logical fallacies committed by various people.

All I want is some more active moderation of these comments to promote a more civil discourse. It's pretty obvious this video wasn't sifted to promote genuine discussion, just to troll up and pick a fight, not debate. It should be clear that there isn't going to be much productive discussion in this thread and very little good will come out of it.

Got some arguments to make? make them. Attack the idea, not the person, and quit playing the victim card when someone calls you out on your bs.

Seriously, look up logical fallacies if you haven't. Hell, even Conservapedia's article on logical fallacies appears accurate.

@blankfist I think you are playing a more serious game here than I am. I'm not trying to intimidate you. Just making a point and having a hearty discussion with my arch nemesis. It is kind of awesome to have an arch nemesis, just like the movies. Good clean fun.

Might as well have this conversation here too in case others want to partake....

@progressivevideo A free market is impossible, which is why one has never existed, and why you were unable to come up with any working examples. I understand the distinction, my point is that markets don't want to be truly free. Whenever there is a power vacuum, someone will fill it, which is why democracy came into being.

Let's do a little thought experiment. You support property rights, no? Do you think there should be any limits on how much property a person can own?

@dystopianfuturetoday You wrote: "A free market is impossible, which is why one has never existed, and why you were unable to come up with any working examples."

This is the definition of "free market" I believe everyone is using around here, via wikipedia.

A free market is a market where prices are determined by supply and demand. Free markets contrast with controlled markets in which prices, supply or demand is directly controlled.

So why is this "impossible?"

I think the point dystopianfuturetoday is making is that when regulation is reduced, there is ALWAYS collusion. Adam Smith understood this. "Two men of the same trade cannot meet, even for merriment and diversion, without the conversation ending in a conspiracy against the public."



The general idea is that SOME regulation is necessary to ENSURE that supply and demand are driving prices, and not guilds and cartels.

"Do you think there should be any limits on how much property a person can own?"

No, but there should be criteria in place for just how much property assholes,cunts,and douchebags may own.

Fucking shit. Thank you, Phraser!

@quantumushroom, this is why.

>> ^Bradaphraser:

I think the point dystopianfuturetoday is making is that when regulation is reduced, there is ALWAYS collusion. Adam Smith understood this. "Two men of the same trade cannot meet, even for merriment and diversion, without the conversation ending in a conspiracy against the public."

The general idea is that SOME regulation is necessary to ENSURE that supply and demand are driving prices, and not guilds and cartels.

@quantumushroom what Bradaphraser said. The industrial revolution and the antebellum south are good examples of how brutal the invisible hand can be.

Yeah, I get that. usually the left is calling for more than "some" regulation.

As the scamulus proved, collusion between government and banks is also possible.

Also, "merriment". Good word.


>> ^Bradaphraser:

I think the point dystopianfuturetoday is making is that when regulation is reduced, there is ALWAYS collusion. Adam Smith understood this. "Two men of the same trade cannot meet, even for merriment and diversion, without the conversation ending in a conspiracy against the public."

The general idea is that SOME regulation is necessary to ENSURE that supply and demand are driving prices, and not guilds and cartels.

Statist!!1! >> ^chingalera:

"Do you think there should be any limits on how much property a person can own?"
No, but there should be criteria in place for just how much property assholes,cunts,and douchebags may own.

More Adam Smith goodness: (from wikipedia)


"The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state."[118]

Moreover, in this passage Smith goes on to specify progressive, not flat, taxation:

"The rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion"[119]

"Every tax, however, is, to the person who pays it, a badge, not of slavery, but of liberty."[120]

no one except the far left fringe is against capitalism, it's unregulated capitalism that most people have a problem with.