What the hell

I think the Ray Rice one was taken a bit out of context. In that clip she's not directly referring to Rice. Just saying in general that if you hit someone, regardless of gender you can't expect to not be hit back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2ntfQ3u2Mo

The context was talking about the Ray Rice incident. By saying that you can expect to get hit back if you hit someone, she's defending Rice's actions.

Oh god she is stupid! I never suspected.

I'm sure that with a research team combing through everything a person has ever said, you'd easily be able to find 10 (...thousand) instances of them saying "stupid" things, or defending the indefensible. I know it would work on me.

Doesn't mean that they haven't had time to revise their opinion.

In context with the surrounding conversation im sure many of these, if not most of these quotes don't sound unreasonable.

I don't disagree that the concept of if you hit someone they can / could hit back. I do think that a professional athlete hitting an assumedly not very physical person is way out of line. Ideally neither hits and if they do they are both guilty of assault. Another thought in this area is that people trained in martial arts usually don't use them unless it's a last resort.

Well, this explains ( insert feeble attempted joke about "Ted Danson wearing black face" here).

Right. The point is:
She's still a shitty people for defending terrible, indefensible actions up until there was absolutely no denying it..

Like.. who the hell still "needs to reserve judgement" of a serial date-rapist with 50+ identical accusations against them..

even after it's revealed they've already admitted to drugging women in order to have sex with them?!

Cosby was (still is, even) a personal hero or idol to a whole lot of people. I think we're all tempted to put the blinders on and be *very* reluctant to accept any accusations of wrongdoing against people that we look up to like that.

Michael Jackson, OJ Simpson, Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds ... all got a hefty dose of benefit of the doubt from their fans way past the time that more clearheaded people started thinking "there might be something going on there".

I don't think that makes Whoopi a stupid or shitty person. Just a fallible person that *wants* to believe the best about people that she has respect for.

...And one more thing that I think is interesting:

In many cases, even if it is 100% proven that somebody did some very bad things, I don't personally think that should (necessarily) negate our respect for the good things they did.

Michael Jackson may have been a serial pedo, which is pretty damning in general. BUT, *that* doesn't make his music bad, or make people who like his music bad.

Cosby almost certainly did drug and have sex with a whole bunch of women, without their consent. That is a very shitty thing to do. But it doesn't make his impact on comedy any less real. It doesn't make The Cosby Show a shitty TV program, that I/we should feel ashamed of having enjoyed.

OJ Simpson almost certainly got away with murder. I think that makes him a scumbag, but I can accept that many people think/thought of him as "OJ Simpson, running back, actor, announcer, etc." rather than "OJ Simpson, murderer". And even though I personally dislike the notion that he got away with killing people, I can watch video of him playing football and appreciate his undeniable talent, or watch him in The Naked Gun and still chuckle.


Sports figures like Barry Bonds and Lance Armstrong are a different story, at least for me personally. Even though doping or using steroids isn't even remotely comparable to the objective badness of pedophilia, rape, or murder ... those two guys were respected specifically for their sports accomplishments, which they "cheated" to obtain. For me personally at least, that completely invalidates those accomplishments, which were pretty much the only reasons to look up to them. In the meantime, I might think that OJ is a terrible human being, but at least I can still respect what he did on the football field.

Maybe that is a weird distinction to make, but it makes sense to me, anyway.

..what the actual fuck.. @_@..

Your justification to defense of heinous behavior is..
"but at least he was funny or 'naturally' talented"?!

That is batshit crazy logic. (and waaay creepier considering your username and avatar)

Firstly:
You could literally make this argument about every awful person/thing on the planet.

"ISIS? They're not ALL bad. They support the local economy"

"Jim Jones of Jonestown Massacre? He helped a lot of people find happiness and acceptance. "

"Sure the Atlantic Slave Trade was bad. But think of all the great civil rights leaders that.. um.. we wouldn't have had.. to have had.. otherwise.."


Secondly:
Awful shit is just awful!
And should ALWAYS overshadow any "good" accomplishments a person does.

Disgrace, dishonor, shame, scorn, condemnation, disdain are all words that represent an idea for a reason.

If society doesn't distinguish and stigmatize shitty people & their supporters.. it validates and normalizes their actions & behavior.

You're effectively arguing that as long as someone does at least ONE noteworthy or impressive accomplishment..

Society should still admire them to a degree.. or at least not solely define them by.. their overwhelmingly disgusting, fundamentally wrong behavior.



Again.. @_@ wtaf??!?

@GenjiKilpatrick
i don't think thats what milkman was getting at.
not the way i read his post.

i think we can agree that we can appreciate someones accomplishments while,at the very same time,condemn them for abhorrent behavior.

i think woody allen is a gross,lecherous douche nozzle,but he has created some of the most poignant and satirical movies ..ever.

one does not negate the other because they are entirely different points to ponder.

ray lewis was one of the most intense,aggressive and prolific middle linebackers in NFL history....and a murderer.

now you are totally within your rights to conflate the person with their accomplishments and hold to the opinion that anything improper,heinous,illegal negates/overshadows anything positive.

but lets be clear,that is an argument of conflation,based on distinctions.

milkman is addressing each item separately,and judging accordingly based on his own morality.

Meh.. fair enough.

I simply feel that Whoopi is yet another example of the elite insular "golden wall of silence" - so to speak - that allows..

Again, not only rich - powerful - famous individuals to maintain ample amounts of respect..

But literally get away with murder. While maintaining their extreme profitability.

I highly doubt that most people - @MilkmanDan included - would come to the defense of/give a pass to a mere pleb under the same circumstances.

"You know, commons criminals have accomplishments too"

meh.. it's just a weird frustrating intersectional topic i guess

point taken

I wouldn't come to the defense of anyone who did actual terrible things like murder, etc. I just think that it is confusing and illogical to follow the common "for the sake of PC-ness" path of assuming that if any one person did some terribly evil or wrong thing, then *everything* that they ever did must by extension be evil and wrong.

I also agree with this aspect in particular of your other post:
"Awful shit is just awful!
And should ALWAYS overshadow any "good" accomplishments a person does."

With regards to how society at large, governments, etc. treat them -- absolutely. Those murderers etc. should be locked up and/or treated exactly like we would treat a "mere pleb" in the same circumstances. It is very frustrating that that is often NOT the case at all. Athletes, actors, and other stars get away with no punishment or slap on the wrist punishment for stuff WAY too often (which I think happens partly because of their idol status and partly because of $$$, two massive weaknesses in our criminal justice system).

...BUT, I still think that we can (should?) value and acknowledge the individual positive things that a person (any person) has accomplished, while at the same time condemning them for the bad stuff. I'm not religious at all, but I guess I can steal the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin" and have it be pretty close to what I'm looking for.

I've seen the video, I know what the context is. She's speaking in general.