@shinyblurry says "THOSE parts of the bible are not to be taken literally!!! Silly girl!!!"

Nice ambush. If you want to drag me into a thread, don't start it off by putting words in my mouth. It's extremely amusing how you're trying to set it all up; Okay, here is my comment on the video: This is complete bullshit. Yeah I really buy that she was just this sweet innocent little girl who had to study the bible and suddenly she is making militant antitheist videos on the internet. This has to be one of the least well adjusted girls I've ever seen..maybe she should quit her day job of appearing in wells because I've rarely seen such superbly edited mockery.

Here's my response about her entirely fabricated commentary. First of all, the verses she mentioned about pregnant women were prophecy about sinful nations who routinely sacrificed their own children to baal, among other things. God never ordered anyone to rip open pregnant women. That's completely false.

Here is a verse about slavery she missed:

"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death."

The idea of slavery in those days was far different than our modern version. In ancient Israel, people who couldn't provide for themselves or their families were sometimes sold into slavery so they wouldn't die of exposure or starvation. That person would receive housing and food in exchange for labor.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The bible teaches equality for all people, which was a new idea at the time. Anyone following the bible wouldn't have kept a slave. And if you want to talk about slavery, there has never been an abolitionist movement outside of the Christian west. Freeing slaves seems to have been a uniquely Christian virtue. So much for atheism saving the world. All of this hyperbole about slaves, where people are trying to play this bible gotcha-game shows a complete lack of understanding of the history and the cultures of the time, or what is actually in the bible in the first place. All in all, pretty damn pathetic.

ah @shinyblurry , always ready to rip a new one for whoever dares criticize your holey book (even when that person is a child who seems to have more knowledge thereof than yourself... or maybe especially because of it?)

I suggest you take a page from her book and consult the skeptic's annotated Bible (as she obviously has).

While you're defending the atrocities condoned/ordered by Yahweh, perhaps you might like to tell us what you think of the justification your fellow apologist W. L. Craig offers (for God's orders to kill men, women and children) in the link below?

>> ^hpqp:

William Lane Craig is a KING of the sophisticated theology that people like Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and so on just don't get. My favourite example so far is how he explains the morality behind the brutal massacres of children in the Bible, and argues ever so convincingly that the true victims are the poor murderers, who must have been simply traumatised doing God's bidding.
Read and learn, amoral heathens!

Guys, you are talking to a brick wall. If you are enjoying watching the logic bounce off, then by all means continue. Just remember you will never get him to budge an inch, much less change his mind. Remember, in his eyes, this intelligent young woman is "one of the least well adjusted girls I've ever seen". He also has no problem with anyone who doesn't worship his god spending eternity in hell. Because that is what well adjusted means to him.

@hpqp This "child" is acting as a mouthpiece for militant atheism..I love her story.. "i go to camp every summer with hiking and ponies..but I have to read the bible (HUFF, FROWN)..yeah like we had to read about Jesus or whatever (twirls hair)..then I was like..what about the OT??!?!? Then I read "some" of it..lol..give me a break..then she rips out the most contentious passages in scripture and goes on a little mocking rant about how great science is. It's so utterly contrived that I'm surprised even you are dense enough to buy it.

I negated this drivel, even though you dragged me in for an ambush, just to mock and smear me, and make me have to refute a faked testimony from a 14 year old malcontent. That's all you're getting out of me. And you call me a troll.

>> ^MaxWilder:
Guys, you are talking to a brick wall. If you are enjoying watching the logic bounce off, then by all means continue. Just remember you will never get him to budge an inch, much less change his mind. Remember, in his eyes, this intelligent young woman is "one of the least well adjusted girls I've ever seen". He also has no problem with anyone who doesn't worship his god spending eternity in hell. Because that is what well adjusted means to him.


she's about as well adjusted as gogo from Kill Bill. And you're missing the point, entirely. The only people who go to hell are the ones who deserve to be there. No one is going to be in hell going "hey, you've got the wrong guy!" If you end up there, its entirely your fault, and nothing I can do or say will change that.

@shinyblurry says: "If you end up there, its entirely your fault."

Pray tell, what human misdeed merits eternal torture (from a so-called benevolent deity)?

I think your confusing me with someone else. I had no intention of you commenting, or even seeing this video. Also: skirt the question much (about Craig's argument)?

>> ^shinyblurry:

@<a rel="nofollow" href="http://religion.videosift.com/member/hpqp" title="member since July 25th, 2009" class="profilelink">hpqp This "child" is acting as a mouthpiece for militant atheism..I love her story.. "i go to camp every summer with hiking and ponies..but I have to read the bible (HUFF, FROWN)..yeah like we had to read about Jesus or whatever (twirls hair)..then I was like..what about the OT??!?!? Then I read "some" of it..lol..give me a break..then she rips out the most contentious passages in scripture and goes on a little mocking rant about how great science is. It's so utterly contrived that I'm surprised even you are dense enough to buy it.
I negated this drivel, even though you dragged me in for an ambush, just to mock and smear me, and make me have to refute a faked testimony from a 14 year old malcontent. That's all you're getting out of me. And you call me a troll.

>> ^shinyblurry:

>> ^MaxWilder:
Guys, you are talking to a brick wall. If you are enjoying watching the logic bounce off, then by all means continue. Just remember you will never get him to budge an inch, much less change his mind. Remember, in his eyes, this intelligent young woman is "one of the least well adjusted girls I've ever seen". He also has no problem with anyone who doesn't worship his god spending eternity in hell. Because that is what well adjusted means to him.

she's about as well adjusted as gogo from Kill Bill. And you're missing the point, entirely. The only people who go to hell are the ones who deserve to be there. No one is going to be in hell going "hey, you've got the wrong guy!" If you end up there, its entirely your fault, and nothing I can do or say will change that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9iIKn1Bl6c

You are seriously comparing this girl to a raging psychopathic murderer? Because she sees the bible stories for the myths that they are? Man, you are fucked in the head.

And don't mince words about your beliefs about entering heaven. You either get down on your knees and worship the invisible, unprovable fascist dictator, or you spend eternity in hell. Because he loves you, and that's what you deserve even if you lived your entire life as a good, honest, loving, caring, giving person. Well, it's your own fault, right?

I think it's an apt comparison. There's spmething in her sneering commentary that reminds me of her. This isn't a girl who is disillusioned about the bible, this is someone who hates God. For all you idiots know she could be a satanist. There are quite a few satanists who put out this kind of commentary to smear God, knowing full well He exists..but just playing to the religious beliefs of secular humanists.

Hell is for sinners who won't turn from their sins. You don't seem to care where you're going so I don't why you are acting so outraged. You don't want to spend an eternity with God; He'd be giving you what you want..eternal seperation from Him. And when it does happen you won't be able to act surprised or claim no one tried to warn you either.

>> ^MaxWilder:
>> ^shinyblurry:
>> ^MaxWilder:
Guys, you are talking to a brick wall. If you are enjoying watching the logic bounce off, then by all means continue. Just remember you will never get him to budge an inch, much less change his mind. Remember, in his eyes, this intelligent young woman is "one of the least well adjusted girls I've ever seen". He also has no problem with anyone who doesn't worship his god spending eternity in hell. Because that is what well adjusted means to him.

she's about as well adjusted as gogo from Kill Bill. And you're missing the point, entirely. The only people who go to hell are the ones who deserve to be there. No one is going to be in hell going "hey, you've got the wrong guy!" If you end up there, its entirely your fault, and nothing I can do or say will change that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9iIKn1Bl6c
You are seriously comparing this girl to a raging psychopathic murderer? Because she sees the bible stories for the myths that they are? Man, you are fucked in the head.
And don't mince words about your beliefs about entering heaven. You either get down on your knees and worship the invisible, unprovable fascist dictator, or you spend eternity in hell. Because he loves you, and that's what you deserve even if you lived your entire life as a good, honest, loving, caring, giving person. Well, it's your own fault, right?

>> ^shinyblurry:

I think it's an apt comparison. There's spmething in her sneering commentary that reminds me of her. This isn't a girl who is disillusioned about the bible, this is someone who hates God. For all you idiots know she could be a satanist. There are quite a few satanists who put out this kind of commentary to smear God, knowing full well He exists..but just playing to the religious beliefs of secular humanists.
Hell is for sinners who won't turn from their sins. You don't seem to care where you're going so I don't why you are acting so outraged. You don't want to spend an eternity with God; He'd be giving you what you want..eternal seperation from Him. And when it does happen you won't be able to act surprised or claim no one tried to warn you either.


I also hate Zeus. And Shiva. And Woden. Oh, no wait, I don't hate them, because I don't believe in them. If, however, there were Woden worshippers who kept getting in my face about how I couldn't go to Valhalla unless I did as I was told, I might start getting a little pissed at them. Not their god. But how could I fail to believe in him? I mean, we named a day of the week after the guy!

How can you deny that Woden exists, Shiny! Do you skip directly from Tuesday to Thursday? You're just a Woden hater! Come back to Woden before it is too late! You can still have a seat in Valhalla! If you don't, then when you die you will be left out to shiver in the cold before the gates, never to be warm and welcomed! And you will have nobody to blame because you have been warned!

“Wôld, Wôld, Wôld”!
Heaven’s giant knows what happens,
Looking down from heaven,
Providing full jugs and sheaves.
Many a plant grows in the woods.
He is not born and grows not old.
“Wôld, Wôld, Wôld”!

I don't agree with craig on many of his views, so why should I have to defend him? I'll speak to my own views, thanks. Although I appreciate craigs philosophical arguments, I don't particularly agree with his theology. I'm not going to defend the views of every theist in the world. If you want to play guilt by association, I've got plenty to work with..we can start with stalin and pol pot if you like.


>> ^hpqp:
ah @<A rel="nofollow" class=profilelink title="member since January 21st, 2011" href="http://religion.videosift.com/member/shinyblurry">shinyblurry , always ready to rip a new one for whoever dares criticize your holey book (even when that person is a child who seems to have more knowledge thereof than yourself... or maybe especially because of it?)
I suggest you take a page from her book and consult the skeptic's annotated Bible (as she obviously has).
While you're defending the atrocities condoned/ordered by Yahweh, perhaps you might like to tell us what you think of the justification your fellow apologist W. L. Craig offers (for God's orders to kill men, women and children) in the link below?
>> ^hpqp:
William Lane Craig is a KING of the sophisticated theology that people like Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and so on just don't get. My favourite example so far is how he explains the morality behind the brutal massacres of children in the Bible, and argues ever so convincingly that the true victims are the poor murderers, who must have been simply traumatised doing God's bidding.
Read and learn, amoral heathens!

Do you have an actual argument, or what? Creation could ultimately only come from a single source; it makes logical sense there is only one God. A true God is a being whom was not created by anyone else, for which whom no one is a God to Him. Humanity has worshipped many Gods, but it doesn't mean there isn't one God. Humanity has worshipped, the sun, the earth, clay, stone, wood, themselves, money, power, sex..there are a million different things that are a god to people. Still has no bearing on the argument there is only one God. And if there is, then you will answer to Him one day.

>> ^MaxWilder:
>> ^shinyblurry:
I think it's an apt comparison. There's spmething in her sneering commentary that reminds me of her. This isn't a girl who is disillusioned about the bible, this is someone who hates God. For all you idiots know she could be a satanist. There are quite a few satanists who put out this kind of commentary to smear God, knowing full well He exists..but just playing to the religious beliefs of secular humanists.
Hell is for sinners who won't turn from their sins. You don't seem to care where you're going so I don't why you are acting so outraged. You don't want to spend an eternity with God; He'd be giving you what you want..eternal seperation from Him. And when it does happen you won't be able to act surprised or claim no one tried to warn you either.

I also hate Zeus. And Shiva. And Woden. Oh, no wait, I don't hate them, because I don't believe in them. If, however, there were Woden worshippers who kept getting in my face about how I couldn't go to Valhalla unless I did as I was told, I might start getting a little pissed at them. Not their god. But how could I fail to believe in him? I mean, we named a day of the week after the guy!
How can you deny that Woden exists, Shiny! Do you skip directly from Tuesday to Thursday? You're just a Woden hater! Come back to Woden before it is too late! You can still have a seat in Valhalla! If you don't, then when you die you will be left out to shiver in the cold before the gates, never to be warm and welcomed! And you will have nobody to blame because you have been warned!
“Wôld, Wôld, Wôld”!
Heaven’s giant knows what happens,
Looking down from heaven,
Providing full jugs and sheaves.
Many a plant grows in the woods.
He is not born and grows not old.
“Wôld, Wôld, Wôld”!

>> ^shinyblurry:

Do you have an actual argument, or what? Creation could ultimately only come from a single source; it makes logical sense there is only one God. A true God is a being whom was not created by anyone else, for which whom no one is a God to Him. Humanity has worshipped many Gods, but it doesn't mean there isn't one God. Humanity has worshipped, the sun, the earth, clay, stone, wood, themselves, money, power, sex..there are a million different things that are a god to people. Still has no bearing on the argument there is only one God. And if there is, then you will answer to Him one day.


The argument is that you have no more evidence for your "one true God" than anyone else has or had for their gods. The fact that you can't see that confounds me.

We both agree that the Universe exists. We both agree that the current state of the Universe had to start at some point. But there is currently no real evidence for what caused the Universe to begin, or what was going on before that.

You take that shared human ignorance and act like it is evidence for the truth of your Bible. That's nonsense. There is no more validity to your claim than anyone else's myths. The age of a book does not make it any more true. The points at which it matches history do not add merit to the points at which it diverges from history. We know for a fact that there are things created in the world today that are made by groups of people working as a team, so there's no reason to believe that the universe itself wasn't created by a combination of many forces. There is absolutely nothing tying the existence of the universe to the Bible. Except for the single solitary fact that there are people like you who want to pretend there is.

So let me clarify my earlier post. If there were Woden worshipers who came around your neighborhood knocking on doors, preaching about the rewards of Valhalla, would that annoy you? If they were trying like crazy to get their Woden worship into school lessons, would that bother you? If they led chants praising their warrior ancestors before city council meetings, do you think that might make you question their ability to run a city? Or a state? Or the federal government?

And if you started talking about how stupid they are, they would say "You hate Woden and just want to live your life of luxury without taking up the sword to fight like a warrior! You are lazy!"

And you would say, "That's not true, I just don't believe Woden exists!"

I don't think I could make it any clearer. Atheists don't hate God. We just don't believe your God is any more real than any other god that humans have made up. If we were living in Iran then we would be saying we don't believe in Allah, and we would be pointing out the dumb stuff in the Quran. Would you accuse us of hating Allah? If we lived in India we might be pointing out the stupid beliefs of Hinduism. Would you accuse us of hating those gods? But we happen to live in an area that is predominantly Christian. And when we point out the dumb things in the bible, you feel perfectly justified in calling us Satanists. What is wrong with you? We're not "fighting for the other side", we don't believe the fight is happening at all!

And one of the biggest reasons why I don't believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, omni-loving God like yours is because you still think that this being could possibly be fighting something! What??? Do you even know what those words mean?

Anyway, I know that I'm just yelling into an abyss and that you won't really respond to what I'm saying. You are entirely consumed by the mind disease that is "magical thinking", and nothing I say will ever make a dent in that. Even when it's advice on how to argue your own side better, like "Don't call atheists Satanists, because you will just reveal yourself as a nutjob."

@shinyblurry Ahhh! I love it! You start off with "Don't put words in my mouth" then proceed to rattle off those same words ideas about how she shouldn't read that part, she should read this other part of the bible.

Science be praised! Hypothesis confirmed! Your behavior is becoming ever more predictable :-D

Again, just because people worship other Gods doesn't mean there isn't one God. If there is only one God it means there is only one truth.. I've already stated that logically, there could only ever be one God. The only being that could be rightly called a God is the one who was not created by anyone else, the one to whom which no one is a God to Him. I happen to believe that God is the judeo-christian God. Most of the gods that you're talking about never claimed to create the Universe. If you want to be fair, you can only compare the Gods who have made that claim.

My argument has always ever been that God will reveal Himself to you if you seek Him out. I can only point in the direction of the Savior, I cannot argue anyone into a faith they don't have. It's obvious you don't really know anything about the bible, or even comparative religion. Mostly it seems you're parroting the popular atheist talking points. What I mean to say is that your viewpoint is not very sophisticated; to the point where it is hard to take you seriously.

You argued for spiritual atheists in another thread, which I think is hilarious, but it seems to indicate that perhaps you're aware of a spiritual reality. If so, what do you think the source of the spirit could possibly be?

As far as satanism goes, I have witnessed first hand satanists pretending to be atheists or christians, smearing God for the purpose of confounding peoples beliefs, or even sitting around in christian chat rooms casting spells on people. There are the kind of things you're not aware of because you give no credence to any of it.

If you care to give an argument that isn't based on hyperbole, I might actually engage you. Otherwise, you're just making yourself look foolish, even if the ignoramouses on this site happen to agree with you. Any objective person who has studied this at length would find your conclusions childish at best.

1. You have "stated" that there can be only one God, but you have not put any logic into it. Things are created by individuals, by teams of individuals, and by natural forces without any outside assistance. There is no reason to believe that the universe could only have been created by a single force, much less a single conscious entity. It is an unknown, and you don't have a shred of evidence or logic to indicate otherwise.

2. As I have already explained here and here, I was raised a Christian. I went to church. I did as I was told. I prayed for strength and guidance. And when my natural curiosity began to reveal the flaws in Christianity and the Bible, I prayed about it quite a bit. Over the course of many years. I got no response. God never revealed himself to me. So you can shove that "God will reveal Himself to you if you seek Him out" crap. It simply isn't true. You may think that God has revealed himself to you, but as far as I know that was a total hallucination brought on by some sort of temporary brain trauma. Unless the same thing happens to me, there is absolutely no reason for me to trust your word on the matter.

3. As far as spirituality in atheists goes, there is a huge spectrum. I can only speak for myself. I often find myself wishing for some sort of insight or revelation about the nature of the universe. But for the most part I am ok with not knowing. I understand that nobody really knows, and that comforts me a little. I still hope that there is something more to life after we die, but there's no way of knowing until after it's over, and I'm not going to waste my life hoping that there's something better afterward. So yeah, occasionally I still find myself in a "prayer-like" moment, hoping that there is some force out there that may help me solve a problem I'm facing. Then I get over it and start working on the task myself. Even if there was some sort of "miracle" that fixed what I was thinking about, that wouldn't mean it was Jesus! Again, there would still be no link between what I experience and the Bible, unless like you I had a hallucination about Jesus revealing the secrets behind the curtain. Heck, even if that happened I'd probably assume I had a brain injury and go see a doctor about it as soon as possible.

By the way, your little jabs like "It's obvious you don't really know anything about the bible, or even comparative religion." and "your viewpoint is not very sophisticated" are called Ad Hominem attacks. They fail to make any point. I know I occasionally will throw in an insult when I'm feeling weak, so I don't take it personally. Just be clear that you are dodging my points without answering them whenever you dismiss them like that. To quote you, "you're just making yourself look foolish", "childish at best", and "not very sophisticated". Sheesh, this coming from a guy who seriously thinks satanists on a website are throwing spells around. Holy crap. Keep it up man, you are making my case for me.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

Interesting discussion. I would like to see more in the way of an intellectual defense of the bible. Unfortunately I don't think it's possible - but I would like to be proven wrong.

An intellectual defense of the bible is like a fraction that reduces and reduces and then eventually becomes the unfactorable "faith" and "personal revelation".

@shinyblurry

So your answers to my questions are:

1) Unrepenting "sin" merits eternal torture, as does not wanting to spend eternity with God.

Not only is "sin" an arbitrary concept (I hope you don't eat seafood, or at least repent for it!), but your God sure sounds like a psychopathic husband: "love and worship me, do what I say, and we can live happy ever after! But dare consider me violent, capricious or simply immoral, just you dare leave me and I'll hunt you down and torture you! It'll be what you wanted, since you didn't want to be with me in our perfect love relationship!"


2) Craig choked on his foot trying to rationalize one of the Bible's atrocities, so I'm not touching that.

Fine, I didn't ask you to defend his argumentation, only to comment on it. Follow up question: how would you justify God's orders to kill every living thing (except the virgin girls, those are for sex slaves)?

1. The logic is simple; The only true God could be the being that no one else created. If a God was created by something else, then he wouldnt be a God. This points to one true God.

The Universe had an absolute beginning, including all matter energy time and space. Therefore this points to a reality beyond the Universe, a transcendent non physical immaterial reality beyond space and time. This points to a supernatural cause.

How could something come from nothing? Only nothing can come from nothing. Therefore there had always had to have been something for there to be anything. This points to an eternal cause.

The Universe appears to be designed. The are dozens of physical constants which, if altered even slighty, would result in a lifeless Universe.

Two good examples:

Imagine a ruler 14 billion light years wide, which is the length of the Universe. It's divided into one inch increments, which is the range of settings for the strength of gravity. It just happens to be set in just the right place for life. If you move the setting one inch life to any other setting as compared to the length of the ruler, life becomes basically impossible.

The cosmological constant is finetuned to 1:1 with 53 zeros behind it. It has been compared to throwing a dart at the earth from orbit and hitting a bullseyes 1 trillion trillionth of an inch.

Taken together, their level of fine tuning is to a precision of 1 in one hundred million trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion. Which is like one atom out of the entire universe.

That's just the periphery of it..

2. Sounds like you were a pretty terrible Christian..you did as you were told and prayed a lot. lol. This a Christian does not make. The total actual knowledge you seem to have about Gods will, or what is in the bible, could probably fit on the head of a pin with room to spare. You ever stop to think that you never saw God because didn't have any real faith to begin with? Sounds like your parents didn't understand their own faith, therefore raised you in ignorance..you became worldly..and tada, you're an atheist. For the record, every ex-christian atheist I meet never knows shit about the bible..they're also usually ex-catholic.

3. It's not really your fault..you're just totally disillusioned. I wasn't raised Christian so I was never disappointed by it. I made an informed decision to become a Christian after God showed me definitively He is the God of the bible. Otherwise I would just be a theist.
Because you used to be a Christian, it's in Gods hands if He wants you back. Nothing I say to you is going to make any difference what so ever. All I can tell you is that I'll pray that God has mercy on you, though with comments like "non-existant facist dictator" I can tell you you aren't helping your case.


>> ^MaxWilder:
1. You have "stated" that there can be only one God, but you have not put any logic into it. Things are created by individuals, by teams of individuals, and by natural forces without any outside assistance. There is no reason to believe that the universe could only have been created by a single force, much less a single conscious entity. It is an unknown, and you don't have a shred of evidence or logic to indicate otherwise.
2. As I have already explained here and here, I was raised a Christian. I went to church. I did as I was told. I prayed for strength and guidance. And when my natural curiosity began to reveal the flaws in Christianity and the Bible, I prayed about it quite a bit. Over the course of many years. I got no response. God never revealed himself to me. So you can shove that "God will reveal Himself to you if you seek Him out" crap. It simply isn't true. You may think that God has revealed himself to you, but as far as I know that was a total hallucination brought on by some sort of temporary brain trauma. Unless the same thing happens to me, there is absolutely no reason for me to trust your word on the matter.
3. As far as spirituality in atheists goes, there is a huge spectrum. I can only speak for myself. I often find myself wishing for some sort of insight or revelation about the nature of the universe. But for the most part I am ok with not knowing. I understand that nobody really knows, and that comforts me a little. I still hope that there is something more to life after we die, but there's no way of knowing until after it's over, and I'm not going to waste my life hoping that there's something better afterward. So yeah, occasionally I still find myself in a "prayer-like" moment, hoping that there is some force out there that may help me solve a problem I'm facing. Then I get over it and start working on the task myself. Even if there was some sort of "miracle" that fixed what I was thinking about, that wouldn't mean it was Jesus! Again, there would still be no link between what I experience and the Bible, unless like you I had a hallucination about Jesus revealing the secrets behind the curtain. Heck, even if that happened I'd probably assume I had a brain injury and go see a doctor about it as soon as possible.
By the way, your little jabs like "It's obvious you don't really know anything about the bible, or even comparative religion." and "your viewpoint is not very sophisticated" are called Ad Hominem attacks. They fail to make any point. I know I occasionally will throw in an insult when I'm feeling weak, so I don't take it personally. Just be clear that you are dodging my points without answering them whenever you dismiss them like that. To quote you, "you're just making yourself look foolish", "childish at best", and "not very sophisticated". Sheesh, this coming from a guy who seriously thinks satanists on a website are throwing spells around. Holy crap. Keep it up man, you are making my case for me.

It's simple. There isn't going to be any sin in Heaven. Therefore, if you don't turn from your sin you are unfit. You're going to live forever, the question is where. Everyone has a fair chance to choose it or reject it. Your mistake is you look at everyone else and say, what about this guy or that guy, thinking someone slipped through the cracks, not knowing the power of God. He knows all of His children, He hasn't forgotten about any of them. It's not Gods unwillingness to give someone eternal life, it's their unwillingness to change. You place limits on God because of your limited ability to comprehend Him. It's not about other people or what their opportunity is, it's about you. Like I said, sinners aren't going. It's up to you if you want to change that. The door is open and always has been.

I'm also done playing the bible gotchya game. If you want to have an actual debate on civilized terms, I'll engage you. I've already answered enough of this bullshit. God is sovereign and can adjudicate His creation as He pleases. He destroyed the entire world in a flood, and that's everyone on the planet except for 8 people or so, and I don't think He was wrong. I believe the verse that said:

6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the land, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6:6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man in the land, and He was grieved in His heart.
6:7 And the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."

I look at the world today and I don't find that hard to believe. Personally, if I was God I probably would have blown this fucking planet up a long time ago. I would have started over immediately after Adam and Eve messed up and made robots instead. But im just a flawed human being. God is perfect and will bring this to the best possible conclusion. He didn't have to continue on with humanity and its insanity, but He did because He loves us. You'd have to be a loving God to put up with this wicked, ignorant generation.




>> ^hpqp:
@<A rel="nofollow" class=profilelink title="member since January 21st, 2011" href="http://religion.videosift.com/member/shinyblurry">shinyblurry
So your answers to my questions are:
1) Unrepenting "sin" merits eternal torture, as does not wanting to spend eternity with God.
Not only is "sin" an arbitrary concept (I hope you don't eat seafood, or at least repent for it!), but your God sure sounds like a psychopathic husband: "love and worship me, do what I say, and we can live happy ever after! But dare consider me violent, capricious or simply immoral, just you dare leave me and I'll hunt you down and torture you! It'll be what you wanted, since you didn't want to be with me in our perfect love relationship!"
2) Craig choked on his foot trying to rationalize one of the Bible's atrocities, so I'm not touching that.
Fine, I didn't ask you to defend his argumentation, only to comment on it. Follow up question: how would you justify God's orders to kill every living thing (except the virgin girls, those are for sex slaves)?

^to sum you up: "if my Sky-Dicktator says it's okay, it's okay, whether it be mass genocide or eternal torture!"

Another clear example of why religious beliefs should be kept as far away from positions of power as possible.

>> ^shinyblurry:


The Universe had an absolute beginning, including all matter energy time and space.

@shinyblurry

As loathe as I am to continue debating with you I will quipple with you on one point that I think you are likely wrong on. The universe is likely infinite, that is to say it has no end, and thus, no beginning either. If it had no beginning, then it never was created. Therefore, since it never was created and has always existed, there is no creator to be had, and thus, no god.

Want to prove me wrong? Find evidence that the universe is finite (you cant) or you can continue to quote a 2000 year old book. You could also try to prove that infinity doesn't exist I suppose (think the highest number and the lowest number OH SNAP THERE IS NO LOWEST/HIGHEST NUMBER BC INFINITY EXISTS [albeit as a value since it would be impossible to measure])

>> ^JiggaJonson:
>> ^shinyblurry:
The Universe had an absolute beginning, including all matter energy time and space.

@<A rel="nofollow" class=profilelink title="member since January 21st, 2011" href="http://videosift.com/member/shinyblurry">shinyblurry
As loathe as I am to continue debating with you I will quipple with you on one point that I think you are likely wrong on. The universe is likely infinite, that is to say it has no end, and thus, no beginning either. If it had no beginning, then it never was created. Therefore, since it never was created and has always existed, there is no creator to be had, and thus, no god.
Want to prove me wrong? Find evidence that the universe is finite (you cant) or you can continue to quote a 2000 year old book. You could also try to prove that infinity doesn't exist I suppose (think the highest number and the lowest number OH SNAP THERE IS NO LOWEST/HIGHEST NUMBER BC INFINITY EXISTS [albeit as a value since it would be impossible to measure])


lol..wow..yes you should stop trying to debate with me, I agree..

From your site:

How Old is the Universe?
Until recently, astronomers estimated that the Big Bang occurred between 12 and 14 billion years ago. To put this in perspective, the Solar System is thought to be 4.5 billion years old and humans have existed as a genus for only a few million years. Astronomers estimate the age of the universe in two ways: 1) by looking for the oldest stars; and 2) by measuring the rate of expansion of the universe and extrapolating back to the Big Bang; just as crime detectives can trace the origin of a bullet from the holes in a wall.

So basically you just proved yourself wrong. You see the big bang theory is pretty much universally accepted in modern cosmology. Almost everyone agrees the Universe has a beginning..how could you not know that? This shows your startling amount of ignorance..you just did a little search and clicked on the first thing that seemed to agree with you, and didn't even bother to read it! If you had you would have seen that it actually disagreed you. hahahahaha

>> ^shinyblurry:

Sounds like you were a pretty terrible Christian..you did as you were told and prayed a lot. lol. This a Christian does not make. The total actual knowledge you seem to have about Gods will, or what is in the bible, could probably fit on the head of a pin with room to spare. You ever stop to think that you never saw God because didn't have any real faith to begin with? Sounds like your parents didn't understand their own faith, therefore raised you in ignorance..you became worldly..and tada, you're an atheist. For the record, every ex-christian atheist I meet never knows shit about the bible..they're also usually ex-catholic.


So, I believed in God, I went to Church, I did Bible studies, I prayed for strength and guidance... and from this you can tell I was a bad Christian? With bad parents?

What happened to "Seek out God and he will reveal Himself to you"?

I guess the only answer I'm going to get is if I guess what you really mean. If God doesn't reveal Himself to you it's because you are a bad person. And you are doing religion wrong. And your faith isn't real. Nyah nyah nyah!

That is what we call the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. I invalidated your claim, and you have nothing of value to respond with, so you lash out with ad hominem attacks against me and my family, who you know absolutely nothing about.

So say what you really mean. You don't mean "Seek out God." You mean "Give your whole life, mind body and spirit, over to something you have absolutely no reason to believe exists, and MAYBE if you believe hard enough you will start to see things which kinda make it look like He might be real."

Or maybe, at that point your brain will be broken and you will start to get confirmation bias towards what you want to believe. It's especially helpful to surround yourself with people who are constantly talking about experiencing God on a daily basis. Seems to me that's about a million trillion trillion trillion times more likely.

What I mean is that I don't really believe you. I've spoken to many atheists who claimed to be ex christians but then myteriously didn't seem to know anything about it, like you. I've had atheists tell me they were ex pastors but didn't know any verses. It's a common trick from dishonest people to have that talking point. My point still stands. Just saying you prayed a lot doesn't make you a Christian. What makes you a Christian is understanding what Christ said and following it. The scotsman fallacy doesn't apply. You can think you're a Christian and not be a christian. Mormons think they're christians..so do Jehovahs witnesses, doesn't make it true. Unless you're doing what Christ said, you are not a Christian. Ironically, the atheist who coined the fallacy convered to deism shortly after. So even if you had the label of Christian you weren't doing what Christ said, nor did you understand it. Some people become Christians for social reasons..the bible says those people are borrowing the name at a price, which they will have to repay.

>> ^MaxWilder:
>> ^shinyblurry:
Sounds like you were a pretty terrible Christian..you did as you were told and prayed a lot. lol. This a Christian does not make. The total actual knowledge you seem to have about Gods will, or what is in the bible, could probably fit on the head of a pin with room to spare. You ever stop to think that you never saw God because didn't have any real faith to begin with? Sounds like your parents didn't understand their own faith, therefore raised you in ignorance..you became worldly..and tada, you're an atheist. For the record, every ex-christian atheist I meet never knows shit about the bible..they're also usually ex-catholic.

So, I believed in God, I went to Church, I did Bible studies, I prayed for strength and guidance... and from this you can tell I was a bad Christian? With bad parents?
What happened to "Seek out God and he will reveal Himself to you"?
I guess the only answer I'm going to get is if I guess what you really mean. If God doesn't reveal Himself to you it's because you are a bad person. And you are doing religion wrong. And your faith isn't real. Nyah nyah nyah!
That is what we call the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. I invalidated your claim, and you have nothing of value to respond with, so you lash out with ad hominem attacks against me and my family, who you know absolutely nothing about.
So say what you really mean. You don't mean "Seek out God." You mean "Give your whole life, mind body and spirit, over to something you have absolutely no reason to believe exists, and MAYBE if you believe hard enough you will start to see things which kinda make it look like He might be real."
Or maybe, at that point your brain will be broken and you will start to get confirmation bias towards what you want to believe. It's especially helpful to surround yourself with people who are constantly talking about experiencing God on a daily basis. Seems to me that's about a million trillion trillion trillion times more likely.

>> ^shinyblurry:

What I mean is that I don't really believe you. I've spoken to many atheists who claimed to be ex christians but then myteriously didn't seem to know anything about it, like you. I've had atheists tell me they were ex pastors but didn't know any verses. It's a common trick from dishonest people to have that talking point. My point still stands.

So you won't take me seriously until I've passed some sort of Bible quiz?

Well, then, we're even. Because there is no way in hell I'm going to believe you really talked to Jesus and he told you all the secrets of the universe in person.

And I simply will never understand why you encourage people to believe without a shred of evidence the exact thing that you didn't believe until it was "proven" to you by the man Himself! If God wants me to believe, He can show me the same way He showed you. Until then, you are nothing to me but a hallucinating, logic-defying, Bible-thumping nutjob.

Glad we got that cleared up.

@shinyblurry
You're not factoring in differing views in science. From that same site:
"There are a number of other observations that are suggestive of the need for a cosmological constant. For example, if the cosmological constant today comprises most of the energy density of the universe, then the extrapolated age of the universe is much larger than it would be without such a term, which helps avoid the dilemma that the extrapolated age of the universe is younger than some of the oldest stars we observe!"

We can't go back in time to make precise measurements and observations to say that the big bang itself was the very beginning of the universe. "What was going on before the big bang," is what I would ask. You can't say with certainty the the universe had a beginning with the big bang and it's very presumptuous for you to assume that I should believe in god based on an idea that we will always be uncertain of. That's not to say, exactly, that I don't think the universe followed the big bang theory. Instead, I would argue that there was a similar "big compression" that preceded the expansion, and the expansion is the only thing we can measure because it's all we're left with. I'll dig up theory if you like; though dont make me waste my time if you can't be dissuaded though.

p.s. I worry you may be delusional based on all the posts I'm reading. Repent! Reason! and perhaps you can save yourself.

That's what you're arguing for huh? how quickly your position changes..how about you just admit you are out of your league and don't know what the hell you are talking about.

>> ^JiggaJonson:
@<A rel="nofollow" class=profilelink title="member since January 21st, 2011" href="http://videosift.com/member/shinyblurry">shinyblurry
You're not factoring in differing views in science. From that same site:
"There are a number of other observations that are suggestive of the need for a cosmological constant. For example, if the cosmological constant today comprises most of the energy density of the universe, then the extrapolated age of the universe is much larger than it would be without such a term, which helps avoid the dilemma that the extrapolated age of the universe is younger than some of the oldest stars we observe!"
We can't go back in time to make precise measurements and observations to say that the big bang itself was the very beginning of the universe. "What was going on before the big bang," is what I would ask. You can't say with certainty the the universe had a beginning with the big bang and it's very presumptuous for you to assume that I should believe in god based on an idea that we will always be uncertain of. That's not to say, exactly, that I don't think the universe followed the big bang theory. Instead, I would argue that there was a similar "big compression" that preceded the expansion, and the expansion is the only thing we can measure because it's all we're left with. I'll dig up theory if you like; though dont make me waste my time if you can't be dissuaded though.
p.s. I worry you may be delusional based on all the posts I'm reading. Repent! Reason! and perhaps you can save yourself.

I didn't change my position, I merely refined it. I still believe the universe goes on for bi-directionally fourth dimensionally (that is, goes on without end, both forwards and backwards, in time) for infinity and thus had no beginning (and thus no creator). While you're right, and I will certainly concede that this is not anything close to my area of expertise, I am good at studying and understanding the abstract and literal language of academic papers (something people take for granted when I tell them I'm an English major) and I feel like my rudimentary understanding of the theories and what I've read allows me to make up my own mind on the subject thank you very much.

Am I a physicist? cosmologist? Certainly not. But I'm intelligent enough to understand the concepts without needing to take up a doctorate on the subject.

And you have some balls to ask me to admit that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Here's one for you, how can you prove that your own religious experiences are not the product of some brainwave fluctuations that YOU don't fully understand? Case in point, these people all left feeling like they had a religious experience, when in fact there was basically just a magnet on their head. >> ^shinyblurry:
That's what you're arguing for huh? how quickly your position changes..how about you just admit you are out of your league and don't know what the hell you are talking about.