"The fundamentals of the workers are the strongest working fundamentals of every worker. United States has workers who are the fundamentals and they work fundamentally stronger than any other worker on the planet. I don't know why senator Obama hates our workers, and that is a fundamental difference between us and the economy of the workers in this country, and in the workers of America.

I spent five and a half YEARS not being able to work, fundamentally." - John McCain

So what is he talking about?

What
A
Load
Of
Shit.

It will be devastating if America doesn't get this election right.

actually the "fundamentals" of an economy is the consumer, you f*cking senile worm.

I learned from sports...It's all about the fundamentals

Thankfully McCain has Palin. She knows a lot about fundamentalism.

The American economy is the greatest best economy God has ever given man on the face of the earth.

A vote for McCain with all the trouble he brings indicates Obama would do an even worse job. Part of the reason the American economy is on hold is knowing if Obamarx makes it in, people stand to lose even more to taxation.

The best either candidate could do is leave things alone. While the liberal history books claim Hoover did nothing, he in fact tried tampering with the economy and hastened the plunge into Depression. Then socialist FDR's "New Deal" prolonged the Depression and set the stage for the glorious welfare state/federal leviathan we have today.

Regulation should be like a glove on the steering wheel of a car going 200mph, a very light but necessary touch. Unfortunately, it will take a revolution (with guns) to shake away the complicated nightmare scribbled on the Etch-A-Sketch of modern government.

Ayn Rand once said that there should be a separation of business and state for the exact same reasons that there is a separation of church and state. I laughed at that in the 80's... now not so much.

>> ^quantumushroom:
A vote for McCain with all the trouble he brings indicates Obama would do an even worse job.


FAIL

The invisible hand has just fisted you.

Oh no, when I said the economy was fine, I meant the workers. Why do I have to explain this? You people are so dumb.

"...and if Senator Obama or anybody else wants to disagree with that, that's fine."

You're so crafty, Johnny. I think that raping children is wrong, but if John McCain wants to disagree with that, that's fine.

Oh, and LOL @ 3:30.

This is an example of "damage control" - contact all the stations to reiterate what you meant or what your advisers spin it into.

>> Obama would do an even worse job. Part of the reason the American economy
>> is on hold is knowing if Obamarx makes it in, people stand to lose even
>> more to taxation.

The taxation is the the problem. The problem is who you are taxing... In Obama he wants to raise the tax to the top 10% and lower the tax for the rest. Mc Dogle here wants to raise the tax for everyone. So you want less tax for you then vote Obama.

McCain wants to raise the tax for everyone? I don't know where you're getting your information but it's wrong.

Try again.


>> ^nickreal03:
>> Obama would do an even worse job. Part of the reason the American economy
>> is on hold is knowing if Obamarx makes it in, people stand to lose even
>> more to taxation.
The taxation is the the problem. The problem is who you are taxing... In Obama he wants to raise the tax to the top 10% and lower the tax for the rest. Mc Dogle here wants to raise the tax for everyone. So you want less tax for you then vote Obama.

When I first watched this I *thought* I heard him say "an excess of greed and corruption" at some point. I wondered if he meant that there are acceptable levels of greed and corruption. On re-watching he said "excess and greed and corruption" - the words all must have blurred together for some inexplicable reason the first time through.

>> ^volumptuous:
>> ^quantumushroom:
A vote for McCain with all the trouble he brings indicates Obama would do an even worse job.

FAIL
The invisible hand has just fisted you.


are you quoting adam smith? cause that would be pretty awesome

>> ^quantumushroom:
The best either candidate could do is leave things alone. While the liberal history books claim Hoover did nothing, he in fact tried tampering with the economy and hastened the plunge into Depression. Then socialist FDR's "New Deal" prolonged the Depression and set the stage for the glorious welfare state/federal leviathan we have today.

this is absolutely, 100% true, and displays exactly why Obama might actually be the "greater of two evils". McCains war will last the next 4-8 years, but Obama's socialist policies are likely to persit until the country undergoes revolution/insolvency/invasion.

of course, if you don't believe in evil at all--vote for a third party!

>> ^deedub81:
McCain wants to raise the tax for everyone? I don't know where you're getting your information but it's wrong.


We're actually getting it from his party's platform and his personal economic policies (which have brought us to todays unthinkably horrid situation).

Where are you getting it from, LGF?

charisma score 0
puppet score 10

Well, Deedub81 is right, McCain won't raise taxes, but nickreal is right also, Obama gives more tax relief to more people. Both candidates want to cut taxes, and according to MANY tax professionals, both of them are doomed to failure. The problem is that we've got this huge fucking war going on, but the people who wanted the war (i.e. those who voted for Bush) don't want to pay for it.

Obama's plan gives the most tax relief at the lowest, gradually offering less relief, until you start making over $250k, when the taxes start going up.

McCain offers tax cuts across the board, but he offers the smallest relief to those making the least, and the most benefit to those making the most. For someone who thinks the fundementals of the american economy is the average joe worker, he certainly isn't going to be doing any favors for them.

Now, I'm not endorsing either plan. I think that the government needs to raise taxes until it can have a balanced budget, and once we're no longer in other countries pockets, start downsizing itself.

Unfortunately, after the extreme of Phil Gramm's deregulation and Cheney wrapping up our tax dollars and giving it to Haliburton and the oil companies, we REQUIRE a very strong democratic economic agenda. Its not the perfect form of government, and I really hope it doesn't last for long (I would have voted Libertarian till they nominated Bob Barr).

Your homework, children, is to read an actual analysis of the plans, rather than spouting off whatever Hannity or Matthews tell you to be upset about. I'd recommend starting with the excerpt from this analysis to get you in the mood:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/url.cfm?ID=411749


>> ^deedub81:
McCain wants to raise the tax for everyone? I don't know where you're getting your information but it's wrong.
Try again.

>> ^nickreal03:
>> Obama would do an even worse job. Part of the reason the American economy
>> is on hold is knowing if Obamarx makes it in, people stand to lose even
>> more to taxation.
The taxation is the the problem. The problem is who you are taxing... In Obama he wants to raise the tax to the top 10% and lower the tax for the rest. Mc Dogle here wants to raise the tax for everyone. So you want less tax for you then vote Obama.

>> ^hatsix:
...McCain won't raise taxes


Yes he will.

His plan will, for the first time ever in this country, make your health care premiums a taxable income.

>> ^volumptuous:

Yes he will.
His plan will, for the first time ever in this country, make your health care premiums a taxable income.


It's true, they become taxable, and he gives you a tax credit for $2500 or $5000. For 99.9% of people who receive insurance from their work, this is way more than enough. Our local (Premera) Blue Cross insurance offers a family 80/20, $500 deduct, $8000 Max OOP plan for $452 per month. If a family were to go directly to Premera, they could get this plan and get a tax credit for this. BUT, that family would have been taxed anyways. The new taxable item is the premiums that you pay from work, but considering that his plan completely covers a very comprehensive plan without *any* group rate, I have no problem believing that it will pay for a vast majority of americans' employer-provided plans. (My premiums are $70/month, for a plan very similar to the mentioned plan)

Here's the kicker. McCains plan is a TAX CREDIT. The previous system you purchased with pre-tax dollars, but you still paid outright. In the new system, people who HAD been paying their employer $450/month for insurance will now pay $450 taxed dollars (about $585 of pre-tax dollars). They'll end up spending $5000 ($7000 pre-tax dollars), but get a $5000 tax credit ($7000 pre-tax dollars). In order to actually have to pay more for insurance than you were before, you'd have to be paying $15000/year.



Now, personally, I like Obama's plan better, but saying that McCain is raising taxes because of this is rather disingenuous. The only people whose taxes will be raised are those getting insurance from their current employer and paying more than $1250/month... A quick survey of people on my IM list says they all pay less than $200/month for group-rate health care. The change from today is that citizens who purchase their health care independently get a tax break as well.

Look, I'm voting for Obama, I want him to win, but spouting off Mathews talking points makes it sound like you're terribly ill-informed. Now granted, *you* may end up getting taxed more, but most will not. I really like Obama's state-sponsored health care better, but either one will bring much-needed relief to those living paycheck-to-paycheck. Obama soundly trounces McCains' tax relief for those making under $40k, and is still reasonably better for those making less than $85. Neither tax plan is sustainable, and both will have to raise taxes if they EVER hope to have a balanced budget.

>> ^hatsix:... but spouting off Mathews talking points makes it sound like you're terribly ill-informed.


Uhhh, that's a pretty insulting statement there champ.

And you're still wrong.

McCain's tax credit quickly becomes an increase because it grows only at the rate of inflation (%2) while tax subsidies keep up with health insurance premiums at about %7 per year. This creates an average of over $3,000.00 per year increase immediately. (These numbers are from the Congressional Budget Office, not Chris fucking Matthews, thankyewverymuch)

By 2018 most households would be paying around $25,000.00 per year while McCain's credit would cover only %28 of that cost (again, based on CBO projections, not Chris Matthews)


This is all without even getting into pre-existing conditions, seniors, or discounted premiums negotiated through group plans.


p.s: I don't get my info from TV talking heads. I like places like the Kaiser Family Foundation, Factcheck, CBO's website, and CAPAF:
http://www.kff.org/insurance/7672/sections/ehbs07-6-3.cfm


so nyaaah

Did anyone feel like there were a few lines that he seemed really tense like either he was about to cry or just explode ?

I'm waiting for post-election and McCain dumps the party does his mea culpa for getting sucked in to this laughable race.

You two!... it sounds like your on the same bloody side and still won't stop fighting...

And i agree Asynch... but he always looks like that to me... like he is trying REALLY hard to remember what it was he was supposed to say... he'd come off so much better if he losened up a little...

Of course... then we get... Ba Ba Ba Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran... so maybe not...

>> ^volumptuous:
so nyaaah


This is the first time I've actually seen documentation to follow up that claim, at first glance, it seems you're right, and I look forward to being completely wrong about McCain's plan.

;-)

both candidantes want larger government. this means increased spending, larger budgets. this leaves you with two options:

1. go into debt
2. increase taxes

unless a candidate is saying "i want to cut programs" he does not want to cut taxes.

^ I think the entire tax argument is false.

The vast majority of Americans aren't necessarily pissed about how much they pay in taxes, rather where that money goes.(overstating, but follow me here)

I watched a great documentary about taxes, and when the question was asked to the "man on the street":
"Would you spend more in taxes to make sure every child had health insurance?" - Everyone, Dem/Repub/etc answered an emphatic "Yes".

Same with: "Would you spend more in taxes if every child in the country had a decent education?" - Again, the answer is "Yes".

The problem is that our money goes to exactly the places we don't want it to go. Funding corrupt politicians, massively bloated defense spending. Subsidies to corporate industries who don't need our help. Paying interest on loans from foreign governments due to our own govt's shite job of trying to balance anything... And worst offender; Slaughter of innocent people in faraway lands.


I think the only solution is for us to pay a little less in taxes, but to ensure that our tax money goes to bettering our country, and the common good. The libertarians can go get their own state (take Texas, please!) where they can do their "I got mine, fuck you" game to eachother.

^when you add federal and state income taxes, sales tax, gas tax, property tax, etc. it ends up being about 60% of the average american's income.

You are okay with losing 60% of your income to government?

Heres something to make you think:

1. What are the top 5 goods/services you feel have the highest quality/lowest price?
2. What are the top 5 goods/services you feel have the lowest quality/highest price?

*money

Adding video to channels (Money) - requested by MycroftHomlz.