ouch. and this is used on people?

I don't think you'll be able to get cluster bombs banned. They serve a very specific role in warfare. Cluster bombs are used to bomb airfields. The intent of a cluster bomb is to do a little bit of damage to as many aircraft and to make as many holes in the runways as possible. It is much harder to repair dozens and dozens of small holes on a runway then it is to repair a single large one.

Mines on the other hand, are designed to deter people from entering areas for fear of death. This can be accomplished in many ways, even with just the threat of mines. Like when people get signs outside their house saying they have an alarm system, when in fact, they do not. Nobody really wants to chance it. Mines are basically antiquated weapons of a different era of warfare.

Cluster bombs = war crimes in my book.

It's a "people bomb" in as much as it helps to immobilize people where they are dropped.

Cluster bombs also have a tendency to kill children, who mistake them for new toys.

Wow rougy you are pissed off tonight ... I don't even want to get in your way lol.

I'm not sure what to make of the "people bomb" thing. We do want to immobilize the enemy when we are at war.
But really, cluster bombs are not war crimes. They're weapons. Sometimes weapons in war kill innocent civilians. I'm not saying this is OK but it's just a fact. They shouldn't be looked at as land mines. Think of it as a dumb bomb that was dropped in WWII but didn't go off. Is that a war crime? No. It sucks. It should never happen but it does.

I can tell you they put a tremendous amount of technology, (R&D cash that most countries wouldn't bother with) into the devices to prevent it from happening, but nothing is perfect. I'm personally proud of the smart weapons and great lengths the US and others have gone to in ensuring minimal civilian casualties.

Generally, explosives should not be tumbled in a cement mixer. And who knows, really, how long this thing was bounced around in there? Maybe we're seeing the last minute of a 2 hour mix. 2 days? There's no way to know. They clearly had every intention of filming a detonation.

>> ^burdturgler:
Generally, explosives should not be tumbled in a cement mixer. And who knows, really, how long this thing was bounced around in there? Maybe we're seeing the last minute of a 2 hour mix. 2 days? There's no way to know. They clearly had every intention of filming a detonation.


Generally, powerful explosives shouldn't be put into small, toy sized packages and dropped in areas where children can find them. And who knows how long the child will play with the explosive? 2 hours? 2 days? There's no way to know. Until it explodes.

you make it sound like there are gi joe dolls that are packed with explosives. parents in areas that are likely to have live explosives littered about should educate their children. I learned not to cross the street, i'm sure you could learn not to pick up bomblets.

Exactly. The term "CLUSTER" means more than one of these were deployed. According to this post (of which I don't even believe the numbers) 90% of them detonated. That's a lot of shit getting blown up. Do you know if you are in that area? Do you let your children pick up things in that area? Even geico cavemen would know .... ohhh explody things there .... that bad.
Look, I agree it's tragic that any innocent civilian should suffer from war. And personally I don't make a distinction between man, woman or child. No innocent should suffer. But, trying to label it as if we planted toys that blow kids up is beyond stupid and completely uninformed. It's the exact opposite of reality.

I don't think these devices should be used either. When you drop a single bomb there is a chance it might not explode. When you drop a bomb with hundreds of little bombs in it there is a larger chance that you'll have something left over. Anyone that is not worried about this clearly doesn't ever worry or think about people that have no choice but to try to make a living in a war zone. Leaving behind millions of bomblets isn't a good way make civilians happy after you leave and try to rebuild relations in the future.

What do you know about these bombs? Exactly what is their rate of failure? What is their yield when they detonate? What precision do you expect from war? Are you objecting to war in general or just these weapons? Look, no one wants any innocent to die. But if we are in a war than we have to destroy the enemy. That means we have to drop fucking bombs to destroy their tanks, planes, infrastructure, communications etc. That's reality. We are using the most state of the art weapons platforms on Earth to ensure minimal civilian casualties. No other country on this planet goes to such great lengths to make sure that the people we kill are actually the enemy. None. This isn't about agreeing with Iraq or any of that shit. Those guys there don't have the luxury of that shit. They are in a war. They're fighting for their lives. These are the weapons we use. Their enemies are the ones to use improvised explosives that look like dolls etc. All of our ordinance is labeled and marked in international symbols. Don't blame us for using bombs in a war zone.
Making statements about "leaving behind millions of bomblets" is complete bullshit. It's just not reality. Not even close.

I'm not condoning cluster bombs, but seriously:

"A cluster bomblet is more likely to be found by a child than a cement mixer."

I've never seen a cluster bomb, but I have seen several cement mixers. I think they took their own sentence out of context.

Won't somebody please think of the cement mixers?!

I remember seeing footage of cluster bombs hanging in trees in iraqi subrubs back in the first US push.

I wish I had a photographic memory, and could reccount the amount of unexploded bomblets around the world. I remember it was eyeopening

I don't know about this civilian casualty minimalization thing... Bombing a target of some degree of priority appears to take precedence over the nearby civilians next to it. Not to mention the alleged mistargeting where innocents have been killed (I call bullshit on that one: they just didn't want to look like they were sacrificing innocents to get to a target. A J-DAM doesn't just fucking miss.).

Also, there probably is something to these complaints about cluster bombs. A lot of people have been pushing against their use, and it's said that when used for anti-personnel purposes, the results can be rather chaotic to innocents nearby.

People talking about how only idiots could misidentify cluster bombs obviously aren't thinking very clearly. These countries are generally third world type countries (at least outside the seats of power), so it's not exactly like the families have a lot of money to buy toys for their children. If the kids don't have a good football, it's entirely possible they'll use a cylindrical object as a substitute, and if nothing else it looks like it makes a good can for a game of kick the can. Kids don't tell their parents what they're playing with most of the time, and parents in a third-world area might not even realize that there will be unexploded bombs after some country or other has just finished bombing the sh*t out of them.

That was a perfectly good cement mixer!

Cluster bombs are saturation weapons. There's no pinpoint strike involved here, and no way to tell yourself, "Well, we hit the target and ONLY the target". These things kill everything in their area. Rather than banning the complete use of these weapons, I'd be happy just to hear they weren't using them indiscriminately near population centers.

wish I could promote, worthy worthy cause

If you see a whole bunch shit blown up, don't go there. If you are stupid enough to go there, don't pick up things. If the kids don't know that then the parents sure as hell should. If you live in war zone where things are getting blown up and you don't know where you're kids are and if what the fuck their doing is safe or not...
I'm starting to think this should be *.eia

>> ^thain:
People talking about how only idiots could misidentify cluster bombs obviously aren't thinking very clearly. These countries are generally third world type countries (at least outside the seats of power), so it's not exactly like the families have a lot of money to buy toys for their children. If the kids don't have a good football, it's entirely possible they'll use a cylindrical object as a substitute, and if nothing else it looks like it makes a good can for a game of kick the can. Kids don't tell their parents what they're playing with most of the time, and parents in a third-world area might not even realize that there will be unexploded bombs after some country or other has just finished bombing the sh t out of them.

what is this fail-safe self destruct?; that the bomb should explode? Is the bomb in the video a picked-up bomblet? I can't imagine it falling from 20k feet and not blowing up, then some kid picking it up and kicking it and blowing his leg off. I'd really like more details. it's obvious that bombs aren't really made to be THAT safe.

Cluster Bombs = War Crimes.

It disgusts me how cavalier Americans can be in regards to innocent life.

Linking Al-Jazeera youtube clips really doesn't mean shit to me. Sorry.
Back to this video, which is what the conversation should be about, it is fucking stupid to presume that if a bomb is "safe" it can be tumbled in a cement mixer for an indefinite amount of time. It is obvious they were intending to detonate it. Do you think someone just walked by a cement mixer with a bomb in it and then turned the camera on? It's a purposeful detonation. The video is intentionally misleading. They are not land mines.

Let's say the failure rate is true. (which it isn't) 10% is laying on the ground undetonated. If you look at the cluster bomb detonations in the video you linked, tell me, would you allow your children to go anywhere near that area? It's not like 90% of the bomblets explode in one spot and the other 10% are placed in some other location.

And I wasn't cavalier about the loss of innocent life at all. I said several times that it is tragic. But I see you have a habit of reading things the way you want to see them.

Go look up Textron, sensor fuzed weapons, and clean battlefield.

The US sold cluster bombs to Israel but made them agree not to use them in civilian areas. Israel apparently violated the agreement in response to Hezbollah rockets raining on northern Israel. CNN clip

My view is that it's better to be safe than sorry with this stuff, but you can definitely go overboard with it. Common sense plays an enormous part in one's own safety.

However, one thing to consider (and is something I haven't seen anyone else mention) is TIME. After what could be decades lodged in the ground, the casings on these weapons may deteriorate to the point that the international warning markings are illegible. Also by that time, you are potentially generations removed from anyone who remembers the exact parts of the land that were bombed. At that point, these types of weapons become the most dangerous to civilians.

Of course, notice how many qualifying phrases I had to use there: "may", "could be", "potentially". TIME is very unpredictable. And I reckon this was more of a problem with WWII era weapons than weapons of today.

It's probably just coincidence, but there's something vaguely human about the way the cement mixer falls over. I wonder if there's a possibility that was intentional.

Here's an idea: how about instead of trying to ban cluster bombs, we encourage them to find ways to lower the failure rate?

Ugh. Not a one of you has first hand knowledge of these things. I wonder if anyone here does?

OH, THAT'S RIGHT!
1st of all, this is an Israeli-made bomblet. Not American. So all of you can redirect your anger there.

Secondly, American forces do EVERYTHING in their power to reduce and eliminate collateral damage. We fired about %15 of all the fire missions we received because higher command would not clear them due to being too close to civilian structures.

Thirdly, American cluster bomblets are equipped with self-detonation timers.

The two I have worked with are the RAAMS and the ADAMS systems.

ADAMS: Area Denial Artillery Munition System - Anti personnel clusters.

These 155mm projectiles detonate by a nose-mounted fuze that ignites a propellant expulsion charge, forcing off the baseplate (bottom of the round) so that the projectile's contents are ejected. The 155 mm M692 and M731 ADAM both carry 36 wedge-shaped anti-personnel mines. The M692 (shell body marked ADAM-L) carries 36 M67 mines with a factory-set self-destruct time of 'more than 24 hours'. The M731 (shell body marked ADAM-S) carries 36 M72 mines with a factory-set self-destruct time of 'less than 24 hours'. When the mines reach the ground, seven tripline sensors are released after a 60 second delay, and the detonators are armed to function at any small disturbance. When the mine detonates, a liquid propellant surrounding the explosive warhead is ignited. This breaks up the wedge-shaped body and hurls the spherical warhead upwards. A delay mechanism in the warhead allows it to reach a predetermined height before the contents are detonated to scatter hundreds of high-velocity anti-personnel fragments in all directions.
Cross-section image

RAAMS: Remote Anti Armor Munitions System\
Deployed the same way as the ADAMS, only they are tripped via electromagnetic sensors and there are 9 to a shell.
Cross-section image

I want to upvote because I love explosions, but I want to downvote for other stupid shit this video and commenters are saying.

[redacted]

[redacted]

The Pentagon videos would lead you to believe that modern weapons are "surgical". I wouldn't call them fair and unbalanced in this matter.

What's different about the wars after the Vietnam war? Take a moment and search the web.
*Hint* Military controlling what the media sees in the war zone.

>> ^burdturgler:
Linking Al-Jazeera youtube clips really doesn't mean shit to me. Sorry.
What's so wrong about Al Jazeera? They seem to be one of the lesser biased news networks nowadays. That clip rougy posted seems very objective.

"We are using the most state of the art weapons platforms on Earth to ensure minimal civilian casualties."

I think you are confusing military efficiency for military compassion.

on what authority does anyone here determine what methods are "humane" to kill other humans?

you think this bomb is going to hurt any less than stray bullets richoeting through the internal organs of innocent bystandards? how about the guy who gets shot in the nuts and knees? thousands of small children die every day in "humane" attacks yet you are worried about some percentage that (in)voluntarily pick up bomblets?

in my book, american philosophy is a crime against humanity. at least cluster bombs don't make the choice to kill people.

>> ^ReverendTed:
Here's an idea: how about instead of trying to ban cluster bombs, we encourage them to find ways to lower the failure rate?


how about we find ways to stop forcing our diseased beliefs on other countries by invading and murdering its populace?

This is what happens when you tell children not to touch something.

>> ^rougy:
Cluster Bombs = War Crimes.
It disgusts me how cavalier Americans can be in regards to innocent life.


it disgusts me how much you want warfare to be pretty and nice

at the request of MarineGunrock:

I mean every time you take a dump are you disappointed with what came out? Of course not! Are you disgusted or appalled to some degree? Probaby. Why you might ask? It's human waste! It wasnt meant to be a glorious, shining, relic that you want to hang on the mantle. It's meant to flush down the damn toilet. But you wouldnt want Americans (or humans to be more vague) to stop shitting would you?

So please, please stop trying to make war out to be synonymous with the Smurfs.

It's war. It's disgusting, it's violent, it's detestable, it's unfriendly, and it's not fair. It's not designed or intended to be anything but. If you dont like it, eat a dick. It's not changing

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Cement mixer is belong to construction machinery, during work its drum is rotated by a drive unit. There is a loading chute located at the top of the mixer. The ingredients to be mixed are funneled into the drum by way of the chute.