Those activists aren't looking quite so innocent now are they?

Granted, this would never have happened if Israel didn't storm the ship in the first place... but come on, beating them with rods and throwing one overboard? wtf - who does that?

/\ Well, no one did that. Its lies and propaganda. He was thrown onto the lower deck according to the full video (and papers like the LA Times http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-israel-clash-20100601,0,5498294,full.story ).

"At least one soldier was thrown from the top deck of the boat to the lower deck by activists, according the commando and video released by the military. Some soldiers jumped into the water to escape, the commando said."

Keep in mind this is released by Israeli authorities to bolster their PR positions while they hold all the confiscated footage and the hundreds of members of the flotilla. Kidnapping. Where is the film of them killing civillians? They jammed all communications to prevent an alternative narrative getting out, and again from theb LA Times:

"After the raid, Israel's navy escorted the six vessels in the flotilla to the Israeli port of Ashdod, where the government had set up tents to accommodate the activists. Protesters were offered the choice of flying home immediately or facing arrest and imprisonment. By Monday evening, most were opting to be arrested, officials said, with as many as 600 activists from 40 nations still being held.

The Israeli military did not permit any of the detained passengers to speak to reporters or communicate with family members. The passengers include members of the European Parliament, journalists and artists.

No information had been released about the identities of those killed. Several dozen activists were being treated in Israeli hospitals."

Have to say I'm glad to see pirates/kidnappers getting the same treatment they've inflicted on others.

Edit: I regret upvoting this

fuck you assholes for spreading IDF propaganda.

You are literally releasing and spreading a military edited video.

Anyways, the people on that ship did appear to use slingshots and marbles and sticks and pipes against a fucking billion dollar military who illegally boarded their vessel 90 miles off the coast.

If somali pirates boarded a boat with guns and shot people would you be sticking up for them? THIS IS EXACTLY THE SAME THING. Illegal pirates with guns taking over a vessel in neutral waters.

Few points:

- @joedirt: The attack occurred 65km (~40 miles) off the coast, not 90 miles. Source.

- While a nation's territorial waters extend for 20km off the coast, what's called International Waters starts some 200 nautical miles off the coast. Source.

- Neither Israel nor Turkey are signatories to the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. Source.

- At 0:53 in the video, you can clearly see one of the soldiers holding a paint-ball gun. This makes me believe their claims that those guns were their main weapons, and their sidearms were there only as a last resort in case of a threat to their lives.

- The Somali pirate analogy is a bad one. This wasn't a ship sailing by on it's way to Egypt. It was headed directly to break a military blockade. It was warned repeatedly that it would be stopped. They were offered to bring in their supplies overland into Gaza (Yes, they were. I didn't believe this at first either. Source) and they still went for the provocation.

------------------------

I'm not excusing the deaths in any way. They are 100% Israel's fault. We incurred that blame when we set foot on those ships. That being said, I do believe the soldiers fired only because they feared for their lives, mostly because of this video. My issue is with them being there in the firstplace.

What I'm saying is, please stick to the facts and leave the legal claims to lawyers.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

If your ship is boarded in international waters by armed intruders - do you not have a right to defend yourself? It seems to me that's what these people were doing. The IDF are trespassing.

There is NO excuse for a modern military to fire on civilians! Especially in a situation like this. Israel acted in it's typical violent and childish manner.

Also, I'm not sure what the source of this video is, but it doesn't seem to mesh very well with the other Russian News clips.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

IMO, this title should be changed to something like "Passengers defend themselves from IDF boarding party".

Meh, I'm getting to the point where the whole region seems to be populated by 5 year olds who cannot talk to each other to resolve anything. All fighting over some shitty patch of desert declared "holy" by religious interests.

I think back to Gandhi and wonder about the feasibility of non-violent protest in a world where everyone else resorts to violence.

I feel like videos need a "push" button... a non-upvote-non-downvote. Abstain, or something like that.

I don't think it should be taken so out of context. These activists knew what boat they were on - that is one carrying aid into Palestine. They knew there was an Israeli blockade. They would have assumed Israel would do *something* rather than just let it sail on through their blockade.

So when they boarded the ship via boats and helicopters, in full military gear, no doubt identifying themselves as Israeli military... well my point is, I'm sure it was pretty clear to the activists, who was boarding them. They knew who they were attacking with poles and knives. Did they then expect the Israeli shoulders to brush that kind of reaction off? No, of course they are going to use force.

Just to be clear - I'm not endorsing this at all. The boarding should never have happened in the first place. But if I was on a boat, being boarded by a military force via boats and helicopters, the last thing I would do is pick a bloody fight with them. The difference between me and them though is that all these activists are staunch anti-Israel demonstrators. They would have been up for that fight.

Here, here. There's been a few videos like that recently, where I object to the content and want to down-vote it. (i.e. a woman getting hit by a guy for not giving him her number), but also upvote it to make sure it's seen and raises awareness. Tricky.
>> ^ponceleon:

I feel like videos need a "push" button... a non-upvote-non-downvote. Abstain, or something like that.

You don't have to agree with the video to upvote - I think all the Fox News clips show that.

>> ^Hybrid:

Here, here. There's been a few videos like that recently, where I object to the content and want to down-vote it. (i.e. a woman getting hit by a guy for not giving him her number), but also upvote it to make sure it's seen and raises awareness. Tricky.
>> ^ponceleon:
I feel like videos need a "push" button... a non-upvote-non-downvote. Abstain, or something like that.

Oh look - the Israel military attacks a vessel in international waters and goes all crybaby when they aren't allowed to do it. How typical.

First of all, I never said "international waters" because the Mediterranean is not.

Secondly if there is "paint ball" guns, then you are an idiot if you think the military carries paint ball guns used by children. These are military weapons used often in Iraq and other places because the "paint balls" contain chemical weapons. These are know as less lethal crowd control weapons.

These marines illegal boarded a vessel with many many fully automatic assault weapons and shot people. Anyone trying to point to a paint ball gun like it justifies piracy and murder is really pathetic and sadly trying to justify murder by these Israelis.

What if these people were afraid and were turning back? How would you know considering they were miles from the shoreline. The truth is that Israel should have waited until this ship was in THEIR waters and violating some law or justifiable reason to board a boat and kill people.

But they were cowards and wanted to do this at night instead of waiting until they were 22 or 11 miles or whatever and it was daylight and maybe even the media could see this.

Sure, these "activists" probably should have expected to be boarded. In fact, they knew about this boarding. For some reason some people on the boats tried to defend themselves. Does that justify shooting them?

How do you know the marines weren't going to murder everyone on the ship and steal the boat? How would anyone even think that wasn't a possibility? I mean what rational reasonable navy of a modern country can't just come alongside a ship during the daylight hours and say "turn back". They have a naval blockade.. Why not use it?

Just wanted to point out what a deceiver you are.

The actual quote.
"The flotilla was attacked in international waters, 65km off the Gaza coast."

You use that article as a "source" but then pretend it wasn't international water.

BBC says 40 miles (64 km). Also BBC says international waters.
So it doesn't really matter what Israel signed. The rest of the entire western countries and UN recognize fucking laws unlike Israel. Also Israel's claim to territorial waters is NOT 65km. So really, you are wrong.


>>^demon_ix:

Few points:
- joedirt: The attack occurred 65km (~40 miles) off the coast, not 90 miles. Source.
- While a nation's territorial waters extend for 20km off the coast, what's called International Waters starts some 200 nautical miles off the coast. Source.
- Neither Israel nor Turkey are signatories to the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea.

I never said a paintball gun justifies piracy. And this wasn't piracy.

I used the Al-Jazeera article as a source, and then I went looking for the actual definition of the phrase "International waters", because it was thrown around all the time, and I had no idea what it meant. Wikipedia is as neutral a source as there is, IMO.

I never claimed Israel's territorial waters extend 65km off their shores. I merely questioned what "International waters" actually are.

Of course the paintball pellets weren't loaded with paint. This isn't a game. But if you're suggesting tear-gas is a chemical weapon, then every girl in college around here is armed with unconventional weapons. Take that Geneva.

-------------------------------------------

Let me say this again. I was, and am, AGAINST the military operation in it's entirety. I wish the IDF would have just let the ships pass and bring their supplies into Gaza. I really don't see the harm in that, and now that the Rafah crossing is open, it's all moot.

I do, however, believe those soldiers fired ONLY after feeling their lives were threatened. I base that on this video and on the recently released recording of the boarding force itself.

This mess is entirely Israel's fault. I'm not denying it. I'm stating it clearly.

But, please, stick to the fucking facts. Is that too much to ask?

>> ^Hybrid:
They knew who they were attacking with poles and knives. Did they then expect the Israeli shoulders to brush that kind of reaction off?



Flotilla members are saying the Israelis fired warning shots on the boat, and when the boat refused to stop, started shooting at the boat, before the boarding seen in this video took place. Whether that's true or not I have no way of knowing, but if it is, then you can see how they would fear being shot if they simply let themselves be boarded. Not that I think it's realistic to expect to beat a heavily armed military force with what amounts to sticks and stones, but when people get riled up, they don't think very well. Maybe the Israelis didn't fire first at all - point is, these videos prove very little. Need more context.

downvote for the psyops.

Yeah stick to facts....

"But an Israeli Defense official said only marines were capable of the takeover 120 km (75 miles) in the choppy Mediterranean"

So, yeah. And yes, the pepper balls they used are a chemical weapon. So is CN gas. Would you like me to google "facts" for you. You keep taking basic concepts and disputing them.

Yes. Yes, it is. Your mother is a prostitute..

>> ^demon_ix:

But, please, stick to the fucking facts. Is that too much to ask?

>> ^vaporlock:
There is NO excuse for a modern military to fire on civilians! Especially in a situation like this. Israel acted in it's typical violent and childish manner.
Also, I'm not sure what the source of this video is, but it doesn't seem to mesh very well with the other Russian News clips.


Of course when any one picks up knives and pipes, it goes without saying that they cannot be classified as civies. Even in defense of their own lives! That is the differnce between civies and others... You want sympathy---die for your cause without a weapon! Unless, of course, I could meet your family on the sidewalk carrying a implement of death and threaten them with it, use it on them, and tell the police "these are international sidewalks, and they had some CS foam!" (Yes, that last part was silly )

Of course I could not do that without being shot by the police... Or the military. You call them civies, everyone else calls them guerillas...

@joedirt. But what you do have to admit is this. All sides lie and spread propaganda that is completely distorted. Israel does not have a blockade on shifty tactics and you simply choose the side you want based on the information you are fed. Both sides are simply vying for power and deserve the pain they inflict upon one another.

Russia shows the flotilla bringing flowers and good hope... and only weapons of kindness. Israel shows them bringing knives and pipes... Which side to believe? Hrm. Neither for me!

Oh, and the definition of something and its practical use are two different things... CS is hardly "less lethal" (Since I, and millions of sevice men and women, have been sprayed with CS multiple times, and heck, I am allergic to it, the proof is pretty well known. Neither is pepper spray or pepper balls.) You have to be a pussy to argue that those weapons, when used in the open, are worse than a spray of bullets...

*Note, I did not argue who was right or wrong in this case so don't bring me into this debate.