For more information Global Peace Index

We're peaceful, motherfuckers!

Christians are more peaceful than Muslims!!! WOOT! What was the other thing? I forget now. /sarc

"Extremely accurate statistical study"? How is that determined? I'll have to look further into their methodology... it's just an odd phrase to use with statistical analysis.


Anyway, I wonder about the causality in this correlation. For instance, religious belief tends to increase in the presence of adversity (poverty, high crime rate, internal wars, etc), so it's possible that religion is at least partially propagated by those factors being measured. Perhaps a trend towards atheism is caused by stability?

Unfortunately this particular list was created in 2007, so there isn't much data from which to derive trends. It would be more informative to see how things play out over time. My guess is that declining violence/war would lead to a situation more favorable to less religion, but I don't have enough background in this area to form any real conclusions.

How DARE they suggest that God is not peaceful???

THEY MUST BE KILLED FOR THIS!

>> ^Psychologic:
"Extremely accurate statistical study"? How is that determined? I'll have to look further into their methodology... it's just an odd phrase to use with statistical analysis.

Anyway, I wonder about the causality in this correlation. For instance, religious belief tends to increase in the presence of adversity (poverty, high crime rate, internal wars, etc), so it's possible that religion is at least partially propagated by those factors being measured. Perhaps a trend towards atheism is caused by stability?
Unfortunately this particular list was created in 2007, so there isn't much data from which to derive trends. It would be more informative to see how things play out over time. My guess is that declining violence/war would lead to a situation more favorable to less religion, but I don't have enough background in this area to form any real conclusions.


I didn't like the wording of that either. Looking at the methodology they use, it would be safer to say something like "an accurate assessment of the statistics"

Norway is #2 on their Peace Index and listed as 72% atheist. A quick wiki search reveals that "According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005, 32% of Norwegian citizens responded that "they believe there is a god", whereas 47% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 17% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force"," and "Nominal religion in Norway is mostly Protestant (Evangelical-Lutheran) with 78.9% belonging to the state Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway."

Regarding Vietnam: "The majority of Vietnamese people classify themselves as non-religious, although they visit religious temples several times every year. Their everyday behaviours and attitudes are dictated by the synthesis of philosophies which can be traced from many religions, especially Mahayana Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism. Those religions have been co-existing in the country for centuries and mixed perfectly with the Vietnamese tradition of worshiping their ancestors and national heroes. That special mix explains why the people there find it hard to say exactly which religion they belong to."

I agree with Psychologic. It seems to me that widespread atheism is the result of secular government/promotion of rational values, not the other way around, considering atheism itself is merely the non-belief in the existence of a Deity/deities; nothing more, nothing less.

Interesting information nonetheless.

someone teach those guys the difference between correlation and causality.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

This.>> ^conan:
someone teach those guys the difference between correlation and causality.

>> ^Psychologic:
...Perhaps a trend towards atheism is caused by stability?

Stability allows education and freedom of speech. If you live in a society that encourages you to express yourself freely, allows you to ask (awkward) questions and gives you the ability to spot flawed, illogical or poorly reasoned answers, your immunity to religion will be much greater.

Conversely if you live in a country that actively persecutes/executes non-believers (hence a poor peace index), you'll actively shout your love of whichever god you're forced to believe in.

What a silly argument. Not only should the makers of this video learn the basic difference between correlation and causation, they should also have a history and anthropology lesson as well. The USSR, China, and North Korea were (and still are in the case of the latter two) "non-theistic," though certainly not classifiable as "peaceful."

I wonder what the correlation is between levels of violence and uncritical acceptance of mindless propaganda films...

Apparently this group lumps 'those who believe space aliens were A) God B) Invented the human race or C) Behind every conspiracy for the last 8K years' as athiests.

Btw, if you look at the list of countries on the 'athiest' list who's 'peace rating' is 1.1-1.9, ask yourself, 'Just which of these nations have an actual military that isn't laughed at by others?"

Interesting that there is also no mention on these lists of New Zealand (#1 on the "peace" scale and 55.6% Christian), Canada (#8 and 77% Christian), The Republic of Ireland (#12 and 90% Christian), Portugal (#14 and 85% Christian), Qatar (tied with Germany at #16 and 77.5% Muslim)

Yeah, beheading people for the crime of blasphemy or showing their female face in public isn't very peaceful.

I think this way of framing the relationship between religion and violence is too simple. Poorer countries have more problems (ie threats to its citizens).

Seems to me, the main driving factor is wealth. If the countries gain wealth (monetarily, intellectually, and in capital), they will become less violent - and also less religious.

>> ^Nithern:

Btw, if you look at the list of countries on the 'athiest' list who's 'peace rating' is 1.1-1.9, ask yourself, 'Just which of these nations have an actual military that isn't laughed at by others?"


Who the hell laughs at another country's military?

>> ^dr_izzybizzy:
What a silly argument. Not only should the makers of this video learn the basic difference between correlation and causation, they should also have a history and anthropology lesson as well. The USSR, China, and North Korea were (and still are in the case of the latter two) "non-theistic," though certainly not classifiable as "peaceful."
I wonder what the correlation is between levels of violence and uncritical acceptance of mindless propaganda films...


>> ^dag:
This.>> ^conan:
someone teach those guys the difference between correlation and causality.



>> ^Psychologic:
"Extremely accurate statistical study"? How is that determined? I'll have to look further into their methodology... it's just an odd phrase to use with statistical analysis.

Anyway, I wonder about the causality in this correlation. For instance, religious belief tends to increase in the presence of adversity (poverty, high crime rate, internal wars, etc), so it's possible that religion is at least partially propagated by those factors being measured. Perhaps a trend towards atheism is caused by stability?
Unfortunately this particular list was created in 2007, so there isn't much data from which to derive trends. It would be more informative to see how things play out over time. My guess is that declining violence/war would lead to a situation more favorable to less religion, but I don't have enough background in this area to form any real conclusions.


Come on people. This does not say that atheism leads to peace. It shows there is a correlation between them. Regardless of peace leading to atheism or atheism leading to peace or anything else, the correlation exists.

This correlation and causality crap is presumptions and not even applicable here.

^ I made the point that the percentage of atheists numbers they use are often exaggerated and in Vietnam's case, just false. At the very least, people that participate in regular spiritual rituals should be excluded from the "atheist" classification, right? Or can atheists be religious/spiritual too?

It's really deserving of a lies tag. Here's wiki's tally of the percentage of religious people in the most peaceful countries according to the video:

Sweden: 76% religious (23% belief in god + 53% belief in spirituality)
Vietnam: 85% identify as Buddhist
Denmark: 80% religious (31% belief in god + 49% belief in spirituality)
Norway: 79% religious (32% belief in god + 47% belief in spirituality)
Finland: 82% religious (41% belief in god + 41% belief in spirituality)
Germany: 72% religious (47% belief in god + 25% belief in spirituality)

Czech Republic's estimate of 60% atheist was accurate. The Europe numbers all come from a Eurobarometer poll in 2005.

"Spirituality" is an extremely vague concept that covers anything from belief in god to some completely non-supernatural philosophies. Loderr errs in assuming that 1. "spirituality" is mutually exclusive from belief in god (by simply adding the numbers) and 2. that "spirituality" necessarily contains a supernatural belief (or is mutually exclusive from atheism). The word has been abused so much that it is simply too vague to be useful for describing anything.

A better question is what percent of people believe in life after death. That's the main difference. Do you do right because it is right and make the most of your years, or simply follow the commands of a mythical character who may reward or punish you after death, and squander your years in expectation of infinitely more?

"I definitely believe in life after death":
USA - 55%
Norway - 31.6%
Great Britain - 26.5%
Netherlands - 26.7%

But would an ancestor-worshipping Vietnamese person identify themselves an atheist? Or a Swede that goes to the Lutheran Church of Sweden, which 72.9% of the country considers themselves a part of (despite only 23% belief in god)? The options in the Eurobarometer poll were:

-You believe there is a God.
-You believe there is some sort of spirit or life force.
-You do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force.

The third option seems to be the atheist one. The second option could technically be atheist, but not in a religious sense. Richard Dawkins and a family that leaves oranges on a plate in front of a picture of deceased relatives as an offering to their spirits can't be part of the same religious classification. When you look at atheism as a type of religion, which this video does, it has a stricter meaning than just "nonbelief in any deity," it means "nonbelief in any deity and nonparticipation in other religious classifications."

This is in the video's intro: "Utilizing the results generated from each of the ten most Islamic, Christian and Atheist nations I have compared them directly as to express the clear correlation between religion and conflict." Yet the majority atheist countries he goes on to list are in fact majority religious (except Czech Republic).

It would be interesting except that the numbers for my country are completely wrong. i am in Denmark, and it is far from 80% atheist. 80% is about the amount of people who are members of the danish church. (probably less now) but still the numbers are completely whacked.

Aside from that, I am bamboozled over the fact that our GPI is 2 out of 144. The fact is we have troops in Afghanistan and as far as our government is concerned, we our USA's lap dog. Can't speak for the other countries but from my perspective this study is not inaccurate but flat out wrong.

>> ^Lodurr:
Norway is #2 on their Peace Index and listed as 72% atheist. A quick wiki search reveals that "According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005, 32% of Norwegian citizens responded that "they believe there is a god", whereas 47% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 17% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force"," and "Nominal religion in Norway is mostly Protestant (Evangelical-Lutheran) with 78.9% belonging to the state Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway."


Regarding the membership numbers of the state Lutheran Church of Norway (and Sweden if I'm not mistaken): Most Norwegians are registered as members in the state church by default upon birth. I don't know how they can get away with it, but the government uses the excuse that everyone is free to quit their membership at any time. Only about 2% of the 78.9% registered state church members actually go to church.

Edit: ^@crillep:

The same is mostly true for Denmark as well, as I'm sure @gwiz665 can verify.

Edit:
Damn you "Load more comments"! I thought the comment I posted was lost because it fell just below the fold.

The Religion in Norway wiki also says "In 2005, a survey conducted by Gallup International in sixty-five countries indicated that Norway was the least religious country in Western Europe, with 29% counting themselves as believing in a church or deity, 26% as being atheists, and 45% not being entirely certain." Still a far cry from being majority atheist.

Hey lodurr, being a Norwegian myself I can safely tell you that Norway is definitely an atheist country. As Haldaug pointed out, extremely few people go to church and they're mostly senior citizens and therefore about to die.

"29% counting themselves as believing in a church or deity" doesn't mean shit when you think about it. Mind the question has "church or deity", that's bound to cause some confusion in stupid people (yes we have them as well). This was clearly part of a questionnaire and therefore even people who are not sure what to believe (or who are of the islamic persuasion) chose this option as it's a "safer bet" than saying they reject the possibility of there being a creator.

I can safely say my country is NOT a christian/religious nation. The people who are believers are either really old or from the religious south (yes, America, we've got that in common)

Thanks for the data Rasch. In the Gallup poll, I wouldn't go so far as to call the 45% of "not entirely certain" all religious, but neither should they all be considered atheists. The Eurobarometer poll painted a slightly different picture. While you can say that some people believing in "church" were actually atheists, there must have been people saying "not entirely certain" who still attended church services or prayed or held religious or superstitious beliefs.

I think the video is still comparing apples and oranges because an "atheist" is commonly seen as a secularist or a naturalist, while the broader sense of the definition has no such connotation. As I said, if a religious label can include both Richard Dawkins and ancestor worshippers, it's not a very meaningful label.

Denmark is basically non-religious through and through. Only the crazies are still actively believing. I assume all of Scandinavia is the same.

I'm an atheist, a scientist, and I think this is dumb.

Ah ok I found the problem. The GPI thingy seems legit, I looked at their link above. What I didn't notice at first is that their webpage has nothing to do with religion (at least no statistics I could find). It is the maker of this video who has added these religious procentages. Something you notice when you read the studies are EXTREMELY ACCURATE and the huge GPI logo over everything. Looking at the youtube comment, you can find the sources to some extent, the ones I was bamboozled by earlier appear to come from here: Adherents. My problem is the first line in this link which clearly shows exactly how these procentages were rounded up to look extremely distorted. It's reasonable considering the video was made by some random anti-religion dude on youtube, but calling it a scientific study is laughable.

>> ^rasch187:
I can safely say my country is NOT a christian/religious nation. The people who are believers are either really old or from the religious south (yes, America, we've got that in common)

Being religious in any form doesn't detract from believing in some form of spirituality that's a reality too. You can have a nation of people who are non-religious but have a strong sense of spirituality, without a defining motivator. There's a good number of people who would claim to be atheists in Canada these days, but still focus their lives on some form of spirituality.


Personally I see this entire video as bunk.

Obviously, we must say that old chestnut: corrolation does not imply causation. That is, the fact that more "peaceful" nations are generally non-religious, does not mean that this is the reason they are more peaceful.

>> ^crillep:
It would be interesting except that the numbers for my country are completely wrong. i am in Denmark, and it is far from 80% atheist. 80% is about the amount of people who are members of the danish church. (probably less now) but still the numbers are completely whacked.
Aside from that, I am bamboozled over the fact that our GPI is 2 out of 144. The fact is we have troops in Afghanistan and as far as our government is concerned, we our USA's lap dog. Can't speak for the other countries but from my perspective this study is not inaccurate but flat out wrong.


Only 700 troops, showing their token support as a peacekeeping mission to help their NATO allies.

"some sort of spirit or life force"

Those are some incredibly vague weasel words that don't necessarily include any sort of afterlife or other supernatural concept.

Ask how many people believe in an all-powerful all-knowing person who will reward or punish them for their actions. Coersion is the central flaw in most religious morality. Coercing someone to do X is by far the most effective way to reduce their intrinsic motivation to do X. So instead of doing good for its own sake, they'll do it out of fear, until they use doubts and loopholes to rationalize lapses.

As is so often the case with these things there is an assumption of cause and effect, but that's really a stupid assumption.

I would propose that it is highly likely that in many of those countries the levels of religious belief are a product of the violent society and not the other way around. Violence and disruption in places like Somalia mean that education levels are extremely low and as I think most people here know, there is a high correlation between education and atheism.

Which in turn brings up a further question, for those countries where there is a high amount of theism and violence is it the theism or the lack of education that precipitates the problems?

Perhaps education is the solution to both excessive theism and violence. Certainly telling people that religion is bad so they should stop is just a dumb idea as it would merely give more excuses to denounce atheism (they're trying to take your religious rights away! (I'm thinking of Glenn and his cohorts here)).

The majority of wars carried out by the US to date are for energy.

It's always been about money its even better when the religious get into it!