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One Pissed Off Democrat in Michigan Speaks Up

snoozedoctor says...

I'm on board with this.

jwray said:

Plenty of corporations make political contributions to either party, and if you work for those corporations, you're indirectly supporting those political contributions whether you like it or not. It's the same thing with unions.

For unrelated reasons, I favor campaign finance reform such that only real homo sapiens persons (not corporate or union entities) are allowed to make political donations, up to a maximum of $200 per person.

One Pissed Off Democrat in Michigan Speaks Up

snoozedoctor says...

I've been called worse than capitalist. I do have choice, and that's where I'm privileged. Many people don't though. There are still many areas where Unions monopolize the work force such that people have no choice but to join, if they want to work in a particular manufacturing sector, or similar. I think it's pretty much a moot point anyhow. Half the States have right to work laws and others will follow. The root causes of lack of competitiveness of US manufacturing globally; escalating costs of healthcare, liability, regulatory compliance, etc. aren't being addressed. With fixed labor costs in the US, companies have 2 choices, lower labor costs (common) or raise consumer prices (uncommon). It's a conundrum, Unions or no Unions. The anti-competitive nature of Unions will make them less relevant. The model doesn't work as well when workers have a choice whether they join or not.

bareboards2 said:

@snoozedoctor asks: "You shouldn't HAVE to join. Explain why I should HAVE to join."

You clearly are a capitalist who believes in paying for what you get. To get union wages and union benefits, you HAVE TO PAY FOR IT. You don't want an union job or union benefits, then go work for the non-union shop. You have absolute free choice in the matter.

Otherwise, you would be a freeloader, right? Getting something for nothing? Can't have that now, can we?

One Pissed Off Democrat in Michigan Speaks Up

snoozedoctor says...

The other aspect of forced Union membership that bothers me is the interference it places on the individual's rights for free trade and commerce. If I want to trade 3 pigs for a wagon that my neighbor has, and we both agree it's a square deal, then we should be allowed to transact. If the neighboring farmers nix our deal, because they think their pigs are worth 2 to a wagon, then they should be the ones to go find the market that suits their estimate of value.

One Pissed Off Democrat in Michigan Speaks Up

snoozedoctor says...

The "global economy" is the wake up call everybody in the US is thus far ignoring. You aren't competing, necessarily, with the guy down the street, or the workers in another State anymore. In the modern economy the US is competing against workers who are willing to work harder for less pay. You can ride your Hostess Twinkie Union to unemployment, or you can "work for less", as the mantra goes.
"All that corporations care about is the bottom line" is another mantra I love. These aren't charities. The term "corporation" is thrown around like it doesn't represent a person, or group of persons, that are trying to advance their lot in life. It's not out of a sense of altruism that the baker bakes his bread. All that being said, workers deserve a safe workplace. That should be accomplished through legislation, and it has been.

Mordhaus said:

I cannot speak to the laws in Canada, but in the US companies are required by law to provide as safe a work environment as possible. The unions did help to put these laws into place many years ago, but the laws are there now.

In your example, you clearly show that young, untrained people are able to make almost double the amount you did up until your recent job. In addition to this, they have very good job security and benefits. This is great for them, but as you said, if you don't want to support the union due to your own beliefs, you are going to be forced to work somewhere else. It does not matter if you are more skilled or a harder worker, simply because you are unwilling to join a union.

You also lay the blanket claim that the workers benefiting from these socialistic practices are not affecting the profit of the company in anyway, nor the output to the shareholders. You do not mention the costs passed along to the consumer of the final products, but lets overlook that for a second. You do not have the figures to show that the shareholders are making millions or billions, nor do you appear to have a basic understanding of what profits a shareholder gets from the net profit of a company. Typically the main profit a shareholder gets is the value of the stock increasing, not dividends paid to them from the net profit. Stock can increase in a union-based company, but it typically does so at a slower rate than a non-union company. This can also affect the solvency of the company, as it is harder to get loans or sell more stock when it is such a slow return.

Now to go back to the point I mentioned about the passing on of costs, the people primarily subsidizing your example employees are the people buying the products that they produce. Companies prefer to pass on these costs to the consumer if they can, simply because the nature of a corporation is to show a profit. No profit or small profits lead to the situation I mentioned above with the stock price and the desirability of the stock. So customers are paying for these extra wages, and may be forced to do so for some time, UNTIL products come in from non-union companies and undercut the price. Then you have a crashing stock price and or closing of the company, all because of an anachronistic union catering to unskilled or semi-skilled employees.

The simple point is, unions provide job security that should not exist in the type of jobs they typically are involved in. They provide wages and benefits far higher than those type of jobs should generally have. This is great for the people in the union, but not so great for everyone else. Nor is it sustainable in today's global economy, because unless your government closes it's economic borders to imports, there will be another country that will do the work for FAR less and undercut your product.

One Pissed Off Democrat in Michigan Speaks Up

One Pissed Off Democrat in Michigan Speaks Up

snoozedoctor says...

And I do think it a bit fascist to not tolerate other ideologies. With mandatory membership, and the political bias of the Labor Unions, it's "if you want to work here, you're contributing to the Democratic Party."

One Pissed Off Democrat in Michigan Speaks Up

snoozedoctor says...

According to a recent WSJ article on political spending by Unions (estimated to be about $700 million in 2011), 92% went to the Democratic party. Regardless of the type of work I want to do, I should be free to work for an employer without the constraint of mandatory membership in an organization. If you WANT to join a Union, then fine, more power to you. You shouldn't HAVE to join. Explain why I should HAVE to join.

Sagemind said:

Had to down-vote that comment. Sorry.
It's, at best a completely uninformed comment, at worst, it's words meant for trollin'.

A Union is not an organization to force people to join so they can have a job.
A Union is a collective bargaining unit and a consolidation/solidarity of workers banded together to fight for fair working conditions and pay.

Members of said bargaining unit pay dues to pay for legal costs and pay strike pay incurred during a dispute. Eliminating these systems will definitely result in the degradation of workers rights and fair compensation. Corporations don't care about workers, only the bottom line.

Workers who do not pay into this system should not be benefiting from the work of the paid legal representation provided by the worker assisted unions who have fought to establish and fight for better conditions without helping to fund or pay into that system.

Please take your plight of Fascism to a fight where it has merit.

One Pissed Off Democrat in Michigan Speaks Up

Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

snoozedoctor says...

Multiple things wrong with the analysis of this story. First, this place operates efficiently because of CAPITALISM. The cheaper they provide the care, the more money the owners (docs) make. Being owners, they have, IMHO, a direct conflict of interest. The more surgery they perform, the more money they make. The notion that these private stand=a=lone surgery centers do charity care is LAUGHABLE. If you don't have money, you don't get in the door. Inner center hospitals in the US have become the dumping grounds for these standalone centers. The uninsured, the unacceptably high risk patient that the standalone facility won't touch, because it might cost them too much money. The one tenet of this story I do agree with is, people need to be responsible for more of their own bill. Personal healthcare savings accounts would be a GREAT start. The healthcare consumer needs to make that decision whether seeing a doctor for a common cold is worth the visit or not. The healthcare reform bill does nothing to fix what is really wrong with the US healthcare system. And there's plenty wrong.

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Wallace Dresses Down Gillespie Over Romney's 20% Tax Cut

snoozedoctor says...

It would be nice if politicians had the real guts to tell you exactly what they plan to do. It's like hiring a landscaper for your new house and you asking, "what's the plan?" "Well, you know, make it pretty." "How are you going to do that?" "Well, you know, put some things here and there." Anyone who has worked with a landscaper would know the folly of that trust.

Wallace Dresses Down Gillespie Over Romney's 20% Tax Cut

snoozedoctor says...

There's no doubt increased broad based spending by the middle class would help the economy. The notion that the super wealthy are "hoarders" is erroneous. They are profligate spenders, and by doing so, promote the economy. The owner of a very successful software company built a $12,000,000 home recently, that I toured. It was the epitome of excess. However, by his excess he put contractors, roofers, plumbers, masons, landscapers, etc to work, not to mention the people his own company employs. Basically, he pumped that $12,000,000 right back into the economy. As historians Will and Ariel Durant (The History of Civilization, a 10 volume work I dare anyone to get TOTALLY through, wow), noted, "Perhaps it is one secret of their power (bankers) that having studied the fluctuations of prices, they know that history is inflationary, and that money is the last thing a wise man will hoard." In the 18th century, Adam Smith coined the unintentional benefits of profligate spending by the wealthy, for his own wants and desires, the "invisible hand" that promoted the welfare of society at large. It's human nature that even when equipped with the essentials for living, they will envy the privilege of the few super wealthy among them and some wealth will be redistributed to the poor, in order to keep the peace.



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