You mind if I play devil's advocate? I don't know much about his birth certificate issue aside from what I've heard from you guys on the Sift and a couple videos online, but if the rules of this so-called "social contract" dictates that the POTUS must be a naturalized citizen, is it fair to call those challenging it racist?

I don't care one way or another, mind you, but it seems a bit charged to assume it's racist. Please feel free to prove me wrong.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

It's interesting, because there is almost a perfect "control" case to test against. John McCain was born in the Panama Canal region. It would be very easy to raise a huge stink about him not being a "natural born citizen" and yet ... there has been very little.

I hypothesize this is because his "Americaness" is physically obvious. He's lily white, has a great "American" name like McCain and served his country as a fighter pilot in his youth. (instead of a community organizer in the ghettos of Chicago).

It's very difficult to prove racist subtext and motives - mainly because people know they are wrong and will not own up to them.

>> ^blankfist:

You mind if I play devil's advocate? I don't know much about his birth certificate issue aside from what I've heard from you guys on the Sift and a couple videos online, but if the rules of this so-called "social contract" dictates that the POTUS must be a naturalized citizen, is it fair to call those challenging it racist?
I don't care one way or another, mind you, but it seems a bit charged to assume it's racist. Please feel free to prove me wrong.

@dag, good point. Actually, I was out to dinner with a friend when he brought that exact same thing up. I think the difference is that McCain was in the military, and like it or not people consider that the biggest contribution to our society. I do not, but I'm also in the minority.

But all of this is irrelevant isn't it, because McCain isn't POTUS and Obama is. So, is it unfair to challenge whether someone meets the basic prerequisites for that position? After all, the social contract clearly says "them's the rules", right?

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Sure, it's fair to challenge it. But is it fair to challenge past the point of reasonable proof being presented? At that point it become irrational, and then you look at other motives for why the challenge continues.

>> ^blankfist:

@dag, good point. Actually, I was out to dinner with a friend when he brought that exact same thing up. I think the difference is that McCain was in the military, and like it or not people consider that the biggest contribution to our society. I do not, but I'm also in the minority.
But all of this is irrelevant isn't it, because McCain isn't POTUS and Obama is. So, is it unfair to challenge whether someone meets the basic prerequisites for that position? After all, the social contract clearly says "them's the rules", right?

@dag, I'll be perfectly honest, I have very little information on the whole thing, but those on the other side obviously don't feel like reasonable proof has been offered or presented.

It seems they're asking for a birth certificate, not for him to quest deep into the underground catacombs to retrieve the Ark of the Convenant. I had to show my birth certificate to get my first driver's license. What's the big deal?

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Here you go. That's the problem. A copy of his birth certificate has been issued and displayed multiple times. The Hawaii director of the State department of health has stated that it's authentic - and yet, it's still not enough. That's where the irationality comes in.

>> ^blankfist:

@dag, I'll be perfectly honest, I have very little information on the whole thing, but those on the other side obviously don't feel like reasonable proof has been offered or presented.
It seems they're asking for a birth certificate, not for him to quest deep into the underground catacombs to retrieve the Ark of the Convenant. I had to show my birth certificate to get my first driver's license. What's the big deal?

Then what are they complaining about?

@blankfist, you're right, I can't prove racism is the motive. However given what I've posted and what Dag has said, I highly suspect racism is why this issue continues to persist despite, what I would call, overwhelming evidence that he is in fact a natural citizen.

To my knowledge no other past president has had their origin of birth subjected to this much public scrutiny. Even after he has released those documents in the most official form allowed by Hawaiian law, and had officials validate the original forms, it still persists. This 'issue' first came up during the election, McCain, as Dag pointed out, despite having similar issue that could call into question his citizenship was not subject to this.

"Then what are they complaining about?"
What indeed. As I mentioned in another post, he's got a Muslim name, he's black, and he grew up in culturally diverse environments very different from what many Americans are used to. To them, this makes him unAmerican and believing he was born in Kenya validates that view. Regardless of truth, these prejudices are being used to generate support for opposing parties.

And yes, the reasons I'm giving as to why this issue persists beyond a reasonable point is speculation, but I don't think that speculation is unfounded.

@ Obama Defenders. I'll see your Dr. Fukino and raise you one Hawaiian Governor Abercrombie (details below).

Birth issue aside, it's fairly obvious by now to all and sundry His Earness is in way over his head and has no idea what he's doing. He was/is an expert at getting elected and nothing else.

My goal here is not to antagonize. I'm trudging through the muck along with many others. I would love to be proven wrong by Obamian policies resulting in low unemployment, a revived economy and the restoration of rightful respect that is America's due of friend and foe alike.

Obama doesn't believe in the goodness of America, and likely never has. Legit papers or not, the man had no business ever being president. The world is burning (as usual) and here he is, acting the wistful dope.

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Friday, January 28th, 2011
Obama’s Birth Certificate Scandal

When he announced that he would produce Barack Hussein Obama’s Hawaiian birth certificate, newly inaugurated Hawaii Governor Neil Abercrombie, a political confidant of Mr. Obama, said that the “birth certificate issue will have ‘political implications’ for the next presidential election that we simply ‘cannot have.’”

Too bad Governor Abercrombie didn’t take the time to investigate and see if there was a long-form, doctor-issued birth certificate on file for Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. anywhere in the Hawaiian birth archive before making that statement. Because his search resulted in an admission that no long-form birth certificate for Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. appears to exist in Hawaii.

Finally, those Americans who were convinced that Abercrombie was going to produce what millions of Americans have been asking for—Obama’s long-form, original, doctor-witnessed birth certificate would suddenly appear and a million “birthers” would be embarrassed. That was then. This is now.

Governor Abercrombie suggested in a published interview that the long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate for Barack Obama may not exist within the vital records maintained by the Hawaii Department of Health. Questioned by the media, he admitted that his search failed to produce the elusive birth certificate.

Either Barack Obama is a natural-born American citizen, or he is not. Either a legitimate Hawaiian birth certificate exists, or it does not.

The new Governor of Hawaii, Mr. Abercrombie, told the media that: “What bothers me is that some people who should know better are trying to use this for political reasons. Maybe I’m the only one in the country that could look you right in the eye right now and tell you, ‘I was here when that baby was born.’”

Notice that Abercrombie did not say that he saw either the Obamas, or their son, only that he was in Hawaii when Barack Hussein Obama, Jr., was born...somewhere."

Mike Evans is where I'm guessing people are getting the current governor's 'no birth certificate' statement from. Well apparently shortly after he said that Evan's claims he misspoke. In the same article, it also mentions Tim Adams who seems to have been a precursor to this statement, who says he was 'told at the time' there was no long form. Which is a big leap from there being proof there is no long form when faced with direct witness saying there was. Further, also mentioned in the article, Governor Abercrombie has backed off on his claims he can produce Obama's long form certificate because it is not allowable by Hawaiian state law.
source: http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-01-27/news/27738132_1_barack-obama-president-obama-birth-certificate

As for the first part of your response, you're more than entitled to your opinion. I think you would be better off to stick with why you think his policies and actions make him a bad president, than relying on the hearsay, misquoting and rephrasing of others on an issue that has been proven false by official sources.

I didn't realize that the whole issue was that it's illegal to release vital records. I guess that unlike our last president, Obama is actually subject to the laws of our country.

I do remember Abercrombie being rebuked because he had no legal authority to view or obtain Obama's documents.

Trump himself never says that he has 'proof' Obama is hiding something. He says the POSSIBILITY of there being no long form is there, and on that I agree with him.

As for judging Obama on his performance rather than the birther issue, that I already do 100%. His record speaks for itself, or at least reads off a Teleprompter. He done goofed and will continue to do so.




Mike Evans is where I'm guessing people are getting the current governor's 'no birth certificate' statement from. Well apparently shortly after he said that Evan's claims he misspoke. In the same article, it also mentions Tim Adams who seems to have been a precursor to this statement, who says he was 'told at the time' there was no long form. Which is a big leap from there being proof there is no long form when faced with direct witness saying there was. Further, also mentioned in the article, Governor Abercrombie has backed off on his claims he can produce Obama's long form certificate because it is not allowable by Hawaiian state law.
source: http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-01-27/news/27738132_1_barack-obama-president-obama-birth-certificate

As for the first part of your response, you're more than entitled to your opinion. I think you would be better off to stick with why you think his policies and actions make him a bad president, than relying on the hearsay, misquoting and rephrasing of others on an issue that has been proven false by official sources.