This is all good fodder for discussion, but it is clear from the dishonest way in which this video was put together that the Kochs are more interested in creating a political hit piece than fostering any kind of discussion.

They claim Obama signed an executive order to kill American citizens, but they provide no context and erroneously use the plural (citizens) when in actuality it's just one guy. I'm not sure if it could have been avoided. I'm not sure how many lives it saved, if any. I'm not sure if it was a good thing or a bad thing. In context, it exists in a very debatable grey area. But we see no attempt to understand any of this in this sanctimonious sermon.

As far as NDAA, it was not a bill designed to indefinitely detain prisoners, it was, (is) an annual military budget bill. John McCain attached a rider to the 2012 NDAA that allows for indefinite detention, for reasons I don't understand, because indefinite detention was already permissible under other existing clauses. Obama asked for it to be removed, but no action was taken, and it was voted in with a veto proof majority.

As to why the court case was appealed, I don't know. It might have something to do with Obama's executive order to shut down Guantanemo and provide trials for the prisoners. Congress vetoed the order by prohibiting funds to try the prisoners, leaving them in a kind of limbo. Does this clause give him more time to shut down Gitmo and give trials to the prisoners under a new and improved congress? I don't know. The point is that while it might be fun for the Koch's to drop some provocative soundbites, they do it in a superficial way that does little to further the conversation. If you want depth, read Chris Hedges, who has written some great stuff on the subject.

You could say that Reason is being superficial on purpose to mirror the Jackson video, but none of the videos they produce ever approach any level of depth.

Beyond all that, right wing libertarianism is not a viable alternative to a consensus guy like Obama or even a complete disaster like Romney. They are at the bottom of the barrel as far as our choices go. Their backwards and luddite view of economics disqualifies them from serious consideration from anyone with even a cursory understanding of economics.

Obama has kept his promises of ending combat in Iraq, getting us a healthcare system and signing an executive order to shut down gitmo (even if congress stopped him from doing it). I'd love to elect Noam Chomsky as President, but that's not going to happen, and he probably wouldn't get much done if somehow he were miraculously elected. There are many factions in this country pushing and pulling, and frankly, I can't remember a time when regular citizens had more pull. Change is slow in a democracy.

Oh, come on. Most people in church are there as a part of tradition. I went to church for eighteen years and then when given the opportunity I ran far, far away. I hate stupid fucking American traditions that includes family gatherings at Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving all of it, its all fucking stupid, fuck it all.

But, many people find solidarity and comfort through keeping traditions, it doesn't matter if they think about or agree with the sermon because after the sermon donuts will be served. Id rather stand for the actual truth and be shoved into a police car because of it.

Really? In all seriousness, what, aside from the sex, would a 26 year old see in a 16 year old? The conversation must me maddening in its inanity.>> ^chingalera:

>> ^shang:
I like to procure underage coitus myself... but I wouldn't let my church know about it, or show off about it... I keep it in my van, down by the river.

Bad move Romeo, best to keep it in the parent's house preferably with consent...My ex was 16, I 26 when the magic happened

>> ^shang:

I like to procure underage coitus myself... but I wouldn't let my church know about it, or show off about it... I keep it in my van, down by the river.


Bad move Romeo, best to keep it in the parent's house preferably with consent...My ex was 16, I 26 when the magic happened

Tags for this video have been changed from 'jack schaaf, shaft, sermon, first baptist, hammond' to 'jack schaap, shaft, sermon, first baptist, hammond' - edited by silvercord

Apparently his sermons and writings are highly sexualized.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBOiRUMhqLI

And his was a fast growing church?

Can anyone spell... hypocrisy?

Christians have got to get a handle -- ha! -- on their sexuality. Read more Dan Savage!

This is a very ugly misconception that you seem to have. Except for several very vocal celebrities, Atheists aren't "against" religion... there certainly isn't some central creed or governing body telling us what to organize against.

What Atheists are against, in the western world, is having our government (and hence our lives) tainted by beliefs that we don't hold. In Muslim countries, there are harsh penalties (up to Death) for blasphemy... so you won't find many people speaking up. In the US, Muslims and Hindus aren't making laws to persecute us, hence why you don't hear us complaining about them.

There's no crusade to remove Religion... There's no attempt to persecute Christians, we just want the ability to go about our heathen lives in peace.

Here is a bunch of atheists who disagree with you: http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism

This is probably because the content in the video was a pseudo-intellectual, pseudo-philosophical sermon that made such astronomical leaps that it didn't need to be said.

Pretty harsh point for the people who enjoyed it. If that's true then make your case against it, since you have understood it so well as to completely dismiss it.

There wasn't an argument made for this. For some reason, you seem to believe that "the things we do in life have no meaning after we die" turns people into sociopaths... And since we're not all sociopaths, that proves that God exists. The first issue is that you assume that 'meaninglessness' leads to sociopathic behavior. Secondly, this is a textbook example of Denying the Antecedant fallacy.

Show me where anyone said this, or even implied it.

--Skipping the story--

Is this really your argument? 80% of the people you meet were raised Christian (even most of the Atheists)... This is confirmation bias... You can't say something is put there by God when Religion was preaching to them on a weekly basis. If there really were some sort of imperative planted by God... wouldn't there be far less religious wars?

Breaking news... people really do spend their entire lives 'waxing philosophically'... People do die for things that their religion has told them was wrong, but they felt was right (Anti-Gay Violence?).

That's what is called sitting in Gods lap to slap His face, or borrowing from my worldview to establish yours, and this really isn't an argument in your favor. Also, as far as sin goes, do you understand Christian theology?

This is news to me... I believe Mormons teach this, but all other denominations preach that when you accept the Holy Spirit, it moves you to do good deeds... that the good deeds aren't your own.

Revelation 22:12

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

You seem to be deliberately misunderstanding me here. I was very specifically using the definition of 'meaningless' that the speaker above uses... as in, 'meaning nothing after you die'.

But that isn't the definition he used. He applied it to past present and future.

My point exactly. The only thing that matters is that you've accepted Jesus as your Savior. NOTHING else matters... hence it is meaningless.

Where do you get the hence from? Meaning is meaning. Even if there was only one meaningful act you could ever do, it would still be meaningful. However, in the context of God, everything takes on its true meaning, attaining the purpose it was created for.

You completely ignored my point here. Except for the Mennonites, there are no other denominations (in the US) that take a hard stance against violence. None. Zero. This country is 80% Christian, and yet we've been at war for 209 of 235 years of our existence.

No ignored my point that religions don't matter, because the true church is the body of Christ. You want to blame an institution, and that's fine, but that isn't what the church is.

Let me be very clear on this: ALL CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS IN THE US ARE FALSE purely based on this one single fact (again, excluding Mennonites)... Granted, that doesn't prove that God doesn't exist... but it certainly does mean that I can't trust any US-based Christians...

I believe all denominations are false because they bring separation to the body of Christ.

What have you done to end discrimination (of ALL types)? Have you participated in any protests against wars, for Gay Marriage, for Women's Rights? Have you stood up in Church to let everyone know that you think it's wrong to discriminate against others, regardless of what they've done?

I'm against discrimination, flat out, and I would say something if I see it. I don't go to protests, no. I use my time to help people in many other ways.

I'd recommend reading up on philosophy, logical debate, and comparative religion... and finding a denomination that is above reproach. The reason Atheists always seem to have the same 'tired' arguments all the time is because we don't need to have new ones... the old arguments still come out in our favor.

I'd recommend the same to you, and the old arguments obviously are not coming out in your favor since atheism is in decline

http://www.sneps.net/RD/uploads/1-Shall%20the%20Religious%20Inherit%20the%20Earth.pdf

This is the point where most Atheists become seriously pissed... Simply stating that someone is wrong because they don't believe what you believe is not the way to have a discussion. Especially when what you believe isn't widely believed by your own fellow Christians. LCMS, Presbyterians and Seventh-Day Adventists are the only denominations that officially preach Young-Earth Creationism...

The whole point is, if it is an old earth, it doesn't make sense that Jesus would come after 198000 years of struggle. That doesn't really prove anything, but the entire point is invalidated if it is a young Earth. Do you see what I am saying? I didn't say he was wrong, I just said what I believe.

>> ^hatsix

The goal of posting this video was to spur interesting conversations on philosophical topics, but so far everyone (with an exception here and there) seems interested in discussing the same old atheist talking points and ignoring the content of the video entirely.

This is probably because the content in the video was a pseudo-intellectual, pseudo-philosophical sermon that made such astronomical leaps that it didn't need to be said.

The argument that was made, I think, is that if you're an atheist you're leading a double life. On one hand, you are committed to this relativism which makes every value judgment subjective, but on the other hand, you live as though there are absolute values and meaning.

There wasn't an argument made for this. For some reason, you seem to believe that "the things we do in life have no meaning after we die" turns people into sociopaths... And since we're not all sociopaths, that proves that God exists. The first issue is that you assume that 'meaninglessness' leads to sociopathic behavior. Secondly, this is a textbook example of Denying the Antecedant fallacy.

--Skipping the story--

The point being that while it's easy to wax philosophical about these points, no one really lives that way. We all have an idea of what is wrong, and if there is something the way it shouldn't be, then naturally there is also a way it ought to be. Where does that come from?

Is this really your argument? 80% of the people you meet were raised Christian (even most of the Atheists)... This is confirmation bias... You can't say something is put there by God when Religion was preaching to them on a weekly basis. If there really were some sort of imperative planted by God... wouldn't there be far less religious wars?

Breaking news... people really do spend their entire lives 'waxing philosophically'... People do die for things that their religion has told them was wrong, but they felt was right (Anti-Gay Violence?).

>> ^alcom:

Is is just me, or were the pews extremely quiet during this sermon?


applause? laughter? yea, it's just you.

>> ^alcom:

Is is just me, or were the pews extremely quiet during this sermon?


They're Catholics. Half of them are dozing off, and the other half believe every word coming out of their priest's mouth.

I guess it's the Gospel Church that's considered more vocal.

>> ^xxovercastxx:

>> ^alcom:
Is is just me, or were the pews extremely quiet during this sermon?

In my Catholic experiences, the congregation is expected to keep totally silent except for during specific rituals.
This doesn't look like a typical Catholic church, though: the priest is wearing short sleeves, the walls are sheetrocked, fluorescent lighting, a frickin projector. It's awfully modern looking.

>> ^alcom:

Is is just me, or were the pews extremely quiet during this sermon?


In my Catholic experiences, the congregation is expected to keep totally silent except for during specific rituals.

This doesn't look like a typical Catholic church, though: the priest is wearing short sleeves, the walls are sheetrocked, fluorescent lighting, a frickin projector. It's awfully modern looking.

Is is just me, or were the pews extremely quiet during this sermon?

The "debate" is inherently unfair because one side has to defend indefensible stupidity. As for what's on the air in "professional news outlets" (and I'm no fan of CNN), her intelligence seems to be only slightly beneath the average of Fox News' presenters. S'all fair and balanced. >> ^bobknight33:

I'm not here to defend her or the Pastors sermon content. All I'm saying if you are going to have a debate make it fair. Have equal intellectual capacities to present their ideas. As a professional news outlet they should have know not to have her on the air. >> ^Januari:


@bobknight33 You HAVE to be kidding... any interest in defending those statements yourself?... Devil's advocate even?... i mean ANY defense/excuse/rationalization/explination... anything? I'd really love to hear it. Or just consider for a moment the possibility that the comments made by this bigot and the folks who support him, reflect VERY well on the intelligence level of the person in this video. I suspect you'd have an incredibly hard time finding someone who isn't this stupid to go on camera and actually support them...
>> ^bobknight33:
What a poor interview. This should have been with someone who had the intellectual capability to have this discussion. Where was the Pastor, Deacon or such who could have properly defended, justified the statements from the sermon.

If she was to represent any one else on any other topic she would have been just as bad.

She was railroaded for the pleasure of CNN and its audience.
That's not news that abuse.

I'm not here to defend her or the Pastors sermon content. All I'm saying if you are going to have a debate make it fair. Have equal intellectual capacities to present their ideas. As a professional news outlet they should have know not to have her on the air.



>> ^Januari:




@bobknight33 You HAVE to be kidding... any interest in defending those statements yourself?... Devil's advocate even?... i mean ANY defense/excuse/rationalization/explination... anything? I'd really love to hear it. Or just consider for a moment the possibility that the comments made by this bigot and the folks who support him, reflect VERY well on the intelligence level of the person in this video. I suspect you'd have an incredibly hard time finding someone who isn't this stupid to go on camera and actually support them...
>> ^bobknight33:
What a poor interview. This should have been with someone who had the intellectual capability to have this discussion. Where was the Pastor, Deacon or such who could have properly defended, justified the statements from the sermon.

If she was to represent any one else on any other topic she would have been just as bad.

She was railroaded for the pleasure of CNN and its audience.
That's not news that abuse.