(We, the undersigned, put forth his name)

Whereas Reggie Leach was born and played
Minor hockey back in my home town
The Rifle fired his first five hundred here
Slapped his way into the NHL

(We, the undersigned, put forth his name)

Whereas some of us weren't always fair
To the Native kid on borrowed skates
Chippy Goolies and Ukrainians
In the corners with our elbows up

(We, the undersigned, put forth his name)

Whereas Reggie on a playoff run
Could make a dad go buy that new TV
Put his youngest by the window; place
The split antenna in her tiny hands

(We, the undersigned, put forth his name)

Whereas photos from the old Tribune
Of Reggie smiling with the Stanley Cup
Curled their corners, dropped off bedroom walls
Left a square of where they used to be

(We, the undersigned, put forth his name
To the Hockey Hall of Fame
We, the undersigned, put forth his name
To the Hockey Hall of Fame - therefore,
We, the undersigned, put forth his name
To the Hockey Hall of Fame)

It wasn't 'the bank's' idea any more than the Internet was Al Gore's 'idea'. Computer records were just a natural evolution. Computers came along. Magnetic card readers came along. Banks didn't 'invent' them. They just used them like everyone else to simplify their work. Secretaries didn't invent word processors, but they use them to improve performance.

And consumer convenience via electronic records is very much something that banks want to 'do for thier customers'. They can use the convenience to attract customers and profits. Obviously such a thing is helpful to them both on the back end with their records, and on the front end in attracting potential clients. If a bank is more convenient than the other guy - it gets more business. That's making something for YOUR convenience that also helps them. Nothing wrong with that.

And so what if it is 'institutionalized'? Clothing is institutional. Should you tear them all off and go around naked because you're afraid of getting ripped off by the textile industry? Food is institutional. Should you die of starvation so you don't get ripped off by farmers and grocery stores? TV is an institution. So go throw your TV out the window so you don't get brainwashed by the 'free' TV progam ads? Money is an institution too. What's your point? That we should live in a cave and never partake of any human advance in civilization just because someone else is making a profit on it?

And everything you say you 'can't do' without a credit/debit card is bologna. You can walk to your HR department right now and demand your wages as a check, and then take that check to the bank and get cash. You can buy airline, bus, and train tickets with cash. You can buy food, clothing, utilities, and every other necessity with cash. You can pay your bills by mail. You can pay rent in cash. You can buy a house with cash. A bank account HELPS in all these transactions (IE convenience). But if you walk up to a business with with a wad of legal tender they WILL accept it - I promise you. I have never once walked into a car dealership with a pile of cash to buy a car and had them turn me away. Quite the opposite. They literally drool over me, and it gives me far more power to negotiate.

All I'm saying is that the things you SAY you can't do without a bank are easily doable if you apply a little elbow grease. If you find paying a measley $5 a month so horribly offensive and crippling to your finances, then do yourself a favor and stop whining about it. Take your money and go somewhere else.

>> ^Ryjkyj:


It's really just a matter of perspective though. Compare a bee with a slug. Bees are way ahead of slugs as far as visible complexity, yet to us, they're complete idiots. Even if we do rely on them.
And humans have been around for what? Maybe fifty-thousand years? Yeah, we've done A LOT in that time. But what could we do with another fifty-thousand? What about a million? (If for some reason we overcome the astronomical probability that we'll destroy ourselves) I don't really think there's any telling what we could do.
Not to mention the fact that everyone just assumes that aliens will be some sort of humanoid or even just act human or share any of our characteristics at all. Sure, here on Earth, life is carbon-based. But then why does everybody just assume that if we encounter life, it will also be carbon based? Answer: because we can't possibly understand how it could work any other way. And not because we just assume, but because we looked and it seems impossible according to the laws of chemistry. But that doesn't mean we're right just because we can't see the answer.
What about this: math is an abstract concept like you say. But the system most of us use is based on the power of ten. The digit repeats and a new one is added at the tenth place. Could that have something to do with the amount of fingers we have? Well what if the alien in question used a system that repeated at the ninth place? Their whole system would follow different rules. What if they used a system that had an individual symbol for every number up to two-hundred fifty million, seven hundred sixty-seven thousand, eight-hundred and fifty-three? What if they were so evolved that powers didn't even make a difference and they could fill a quadratic equation with numbers that were all based in different powers?
And if they were a race (another human term) whose individual bodies consisted of different, interchangeable parts, then math would be essential to their existence. It would be as natural as eating. To a species like that, we would look like childish morons playing with our own snot. Even though we use separate, distinct powers to program computers.
And that's just assuming that our aliens only understand things as far as the three dimensions we live in. What about a fourth dimensional alien that only communicates through careful waves of sulfur emission? To us, it might just be a giant blur that smelled like shit. You know what we'd do? That's right, we'd light it on fire.


I will admit that a species that has absolutely no comparable experience with us would be a problem. There's a mad, wonderful chapter in Greg Egans Diaspora that discusses the idea of complex creatures that have evolved in multi-dimensional space. I don't recall the exact maths, but they essentially live "rotated" into extra dimensions. I'll grant they will pose a challenge.

But it's not unreasonable to assume that some life forms would have evolved on a similar ecosystem to ours. We're already comfortable in working outside base 10, and there are some smart people who are working out establishing common symbol patterns based on fundamental mathematical principles. I don't care if you can interchange your head with your elbow, or you reproduce by thought, 1+1 =2. That does not change. Same for Pythagoras' theorem, prime numbers and so on.

My overall point is that something that is smart enough to figure out all the problems of going out into space will figure out how to communicate with us.

Or more likely, simply harvest the planet for resources. They're bound to be low on food and fuel by then

>> ^spoco2:

It's funny just how much worse the falls seem in slow motion. When played back at normal speed at the end they're just 'meh, get up yah pansy' type of falls.


Interesting, because I had the exact opposite impression. In the slow-mo, I thought it really accented how well/quickly their reactions put less critical / shock absorbing body parts down to take the initial jarring contact. Hands and feet take some initial hit, then arms bent at the elbow, ass, roll to back, keep the head up.

At full speed, I noticed that I'd definitely want to be wearing wrist guards as suggested by @shponglefan.

Then again, I've never skateboarded, but I enjoy inline skating (not that I'm much good at it, hence the wrist guards). In any case, upvote to the video and comments all around for the neat discussion!

Folks, NYC is one of the most expensive places to live in the entire world. There are a ton of young, college educated, silver spoon anarchists running around that city, many of whom proudly and consciously adopt a bohemian lifestyle. This is part of the hipster/indie/underground/alternative/etc. persona and one needs that cred when you move from NYC to LA to rub your self importance in everyone's face. Or maybe Henry simply doesn't care for elitists in general, as it is he rubs elbows with people doing truly great things with their lives, like Shirin Neshat.

P.S. older folks are always disapproving of young folks ;-)

>> ^NetRunner:
I don't want the site to be tedious either! I want the rules to allow for prurient humor, us lovingly referring to each other as pigfucker in public, and for us to be able to throw an elbow or two in a passionate discussion.
But at the same time, I don't want people to have free reign to act like bullies, or just troll for trolling's sake. I think comments that contain nothing but a personal attack are bad for the community generally. I don't want to feed the people who post them to clockwork dragons, but I do think they should get some sort of feedback from some sort of authority that what they're doing isn't welcome.
And incidentally, friendly clockwork dragons are totally a part of my utopia.


But some people like trolling for trolling's sake. Nothing wrong with it, IMO. Bullying, maybe that's different, but everyone has a different perspective on what that is. I've seen firsthand what I think is bullying when you, dft and three or four other likeminded people get together to deconstruct my belief system. And more often than not those conversations turn to attacking me instead of my arguments. I'm called blankfuck, libertard and everything else.

But I'm a big boy, and I have to find ways to make peace with that or else leave the site. So, if I do think people are engaging in a super light version of the Stanford Prison Experiment, I tend to say something to them. And that tends to lighten the situation almost immediately.

I like to debate. Often I play too much and it's read as bullying, though if you knew me personally you'd know I'm a huge ball breaker but nothing inside of me is capable of sincere bullying. Not in a genuine mean way.

And it's "draconian" not "dragon". But I like the sound of a clockwork dragon utopia.

>> ^blankfist:

It works how things work in every day situations. In sexual harassment training they tell you to tell the offender that what he or she is saying offends you. After that, if they persist, then you have a grievance. Same thing would apply here, no?
Hypothetically, I call you a Nazi, you should then tell me you think that's harassment. If I persist, then you could bring your grievance to an admin, showing that you warned me. I mean, this isn't complicated stuff. It's just basic communication.

Perfect solution to the problem, IMO. Let's write it down somewhere publicly, and tell people that's how we're going to work things from now on.

>> ^blankfist:

I just don't want to see this place become so fucking tedious. It's a better site when it works more like a squabbling family than a clockwork draconian utopia.


I don't want the site to be tedious either! I want the rules to allow for prurient humor, us lovingly referring to each other as pigfucker in public, and for us to be able to throw an elbow or two in a passionate discussion.

But at the same time, I don't want people to have free reign to act like bullies, or just troll for trolling's sake. I think comments that contain nothing but a personal attack are bad for the community generally. I don't want to feed the people who post them to clockwork dragons, but I do think they should get some sort of feedback from some sort of authority that what they're doing isn't welcome.

And incidentally, friendly clockwork dragons are totally a part of my utopia.

There is a reason for five-on-one besides a lack of skill. One is so the criminal knows that while he is alone, the Law is not... Seriously, it is not a dual. Gangs maintain fear through the same tactics--unity. Second, the least amount of space the subject has, the least amount of force you have to use on him. In other words, block him off on all sides and immobilize him. On a side note, the kneeing itself may look roguish, but the reasoning behind it is sound. Pain compliance is always safer than trauma compliance. (The tazer uses a similar approach but is more prone to abuse. I.e., if I have to force you to let go of your car door, I may just break your elbow on accident, or harm your fingers or such... Kneeing, when not on the spine, does the same job.)

The one thing I will note is the bald douche who is trying to find a spot where he belongs (Which furthers your point about the five on one.) Dude, just realize that your in the way and back off...

>> ^bareboards2:

There may not have been stomping, but it looked like there was some "kneeing" going on.
I actually had a different response -- I was thinking, oh, cool, the one cop subdued the idiot using his training. And then it took five to finish the job (including the kneeing, that was mild or perhaps just my imagination)??? Really?
I'm not complaining. I just thought it was odd.


>> ^Lawdeedaw:
This is a perfect example of cops not taking it to the next level. When help arrived, he released the choke. Remember, the man reached for his gun. Cop was tiring out and that alone makes the response reasonable because of the potential to be overpowered. And there was no stomping at the end.

@MilkmanDan I guess it's hard to tell if the windows are open or not, but at the beginning where the camera pans around, you can definitely see a couple elbows hanging out of windows... There are clips on youtube that start a little earlier and you can see it even more clearly

I guess it's hard to say what his intent is, but to me it seems unlikely that he's trying to clean half of some random train... Even if he is, there are undoubtedly people inside getting wet

if someone isn't actually TRYING to hurt you, the boob is more sensitive. if someone wants to inflict pain, the delicate nerve endings in your labia and clitoris being slammed between a fist, a boot, a brick.. whatever.. and your pubic bone is horrific... but sure, an accidentally elbow to your nipple hurts like hell. >> ^Shepppard:

>> ^kymbos:
peggedbea, for the love of God stop interrupting!
Sheppard, you were telling us about the female anatomy. Pray please continue...

I'm sorry, are you trying to make fun of me for not knowing that?
I'm not a woman, nor have I ever hit one. I would assume that it hurt less because that's what I've been told, not having a vagina, that's basically all I have to go on. I've been told being hit in the boob hurts most, that's what I was going by.
Bea made a list, I'll respect it. I'm in no position to argue.

@westy he got his elbow in mid-air and fell aaaaaaaaall the way to the floor. I guess he seemed ok, because he is an athlete. But that was a rather hard double check to the chest (elbow and ground)

This does seem to have devolved to -- we oldsters have decided how it shall be. Any new folks who have new ideas aren't to be considered.

I get that it can be annoying to have worked on a set of rules for a long time, I mean really worked hard at it, and then have someone(s) come along and want to rehash stuff that you had finally settled.

I hope those of you who keep saying the same thing thing -- this is how it is, a dupe is dupe, we have written rules -- can take a second to think about how it feels on our side of the fence. Something isn't working with the rules for us, we're bright and interested and care about the Sift, eager to help make it better -- and we are met with this .... brick wall of "this is how it has been, therefore this is how it shall always be, and maybe I'll insult you a little bit in the process."

I guess this is human nature -- Old Guard versus New Guard, stick in the mud oldster versus over eager noobs who haven't been around enough to know their ass from their elbow -- every group has this dynamic. It doesn't make it any more pleasant when we all play our parts to realize we are a cliche.

I remarked to gwiz privately that I thought it interesting that he and I were the only ones who had bookmarked this Sift Talk. I thought it was because we were the most invested in change, so we wanted to follow this closely. That was a more telling observation than I realized at the time.

Talk about going elbow-deep.

^For me at least, it's his enunciation and the way he seeks favor. He's a very lazy speaker at times, slurring his vowels and consonants together. Nothing that a good voice coach and some practice under his belt can't fix; so that his T's pops and his S's don't sound like Z's, etc.

Regarding his attitude, specifically in this clip, he goes from delivering the information to "I'm going to ingratiate myself to the viewer by being funny" with the line: "We're talking cage match! Here comes the elbow!", etc. He loses the intelligent argument by trying to use an less-than-intelligent delivery and analogy. Maybe that works for some, but not me. If he's going to zing someone, then stay on target; Olbermann was good at doing that.

Oh and it's about time that some of the Right is waking up to that celebrity whore monster. Sadly, only some.

Umm Nope I don't get it. His dogs were fine...if he's got a problem with a guy being in front of him...slow the fuck down and pass after the hill. Certainly don't react with an elbow/forearm because that wasn't a slap at all.

The fact that he misrepresents the contact says to me that he's not of sound mind to judge his actions and an independent arbiter decided he was unsportsmanlike. If that's the rules of the competition then he must be held to them. It falls under "Don't Be a Dick" rules of the internet in my view.