Love and justice are indeed pitted at each other. Are you saying a parent could toss their child into a pit of flame, out of love? I really fail to see any parallel with this to parenting. A large segment of parenting is about avoiding the temporary pains of this life. The final judgment is anything but that. It isn't like parenting, at all. It is about the end of your life, be it for heaven or hell. Nothing could be more final. There are no parenting situations that come to mind, stay, a parent being on the jury for their child. If you are saying that a parent could say they love their child while also sending them to hell, I don't think that is very loving. And then, surely, "Love never fails" is false. If it is false, then there isn't much power in love, and not much use in God claiming it conquers all, as it doesn't...because people are going to hell.

To me, talking about society isn't taking it up a notch from parenting, it is taking it down a notch. I care much less about random people than my friends and family. I could kill strangers much more easily than my family members...because I love my family. I most likely wouldn't be able to kill my mother if she turned into a zombie and tried to eat me, because I love her. However, God seems to be able to throw people into a lake of fire by the millions, perhaps billions, or if the earth goes on long enough, trillions. This is an unfathomable amount of suffering. If a loving being could do this, I wouldn't want to be loved by it.

If peoples choices are binding God, he isn't a very powerful God, nor is he the God I read about in the bible. As I said, I was a 5 point Calvinist. Is God overriding Pharaoh suddenly blank from the bible now? I really disagree with the whole idea of libertarian free will. I don't think it exists, and moreover, the idea that humans who's condition is COMPLETELY based on need would have even the slightest measure of libertarian free will is preposterousness.

I completely disagree that love is a 2 way street. One of my favorite lines from Babylon 5 is, as this love sick fool lay dying, he murmured "All love is unrequited love!" Stating the dubious nature of love. That we seldom choose those who we love, but it doesn't matter how great the pain of them not returning it is, you still love them. Like I said, I don't care if my mother turned into a zombie and tried to eat me, I would love her still even though she is incapable of it. If God isn't as capable as I am to love zombies, then I don't want his love.

Then I also don't understand how all the sudden my sins are my responsibility, when the whole idea of Jesus is completely irresponsibility. As soon as you accept Jesus, the logical implications are irresponsibility. Only the damned are responsible and somehow that is supposed to be fair. Jesus died for everyone sins supposedly. He then must turn around and deny people access to salvation because they denied him. That is the same as me burring the pick axe in my mothers head as she comes for my brains. She didn't say she loved me, time to embed this in her cerebral cortex.

The entire metaphysical aspect of the bibles justice is very illogical to me. How does one inherit imperfection? Why is it so that perfect can't come from imperfect. You are making a fallacy of quantificational logic, mainly, the Existential Fallacy, or, putting the cart before the horse. I have no reason to accept these arbitrary positions. They aren't logical, therefore, I am not required to accept them.

Then the other main problem. You can't call something that wasn't a sacrifice a sacrifice. If he can't be judged, then no amount of justice was done. If I bestowed all my crimes on someone with diplomatic immunity, I hardly would say justice is done, more like avoided. He was never going to hell, he was never dying for our sins, if the payment of sins is blood and there is no blood, where is the justice?

Original sin? Once again, holding people to account for things they had no part in is of the highest level of injustice. To say everyone has sinned because one person has sinned isn't logical, it isn't something that I have to agree to. I would have to be compelled to believe so, and there is no sufficient reason to do so, not from what I read anyway.

Once again, how is what Jesus did in anyway logically connected to Adam. They were both men, ok, they both liked bacon, sure...but Jesus isn't Adam. Jesus was a God man, how is he even remotely similar in nature to be able to transfer sins onto. If that be the case, my computer...err actually, lets not use the computer. My Soda can has lead a sinless live, so to my cats...never mind they are the devil too, so to my dogs. I wish to transfer my sins on to them.

Ahh wait. I guess you said they needed to be perfect to fulfill the law . But wait, why? If you sin, are you sinning or me? If I am held to account for only my actions, how are the actions of Adam being grandfathered on to me, but not your's? Why do sins transfer sometimes and not others? Why does being perfect mean you get to abolish the law for everyone, then turn around and apply it back to them? If the law is "fulfilled in Jesus" how it is then being reapplied? Actually, the HOW isn't needed, the WHY is? Why would Jesus condemn people if he just did away with the law? Spite? Is Jesus unable to love those who don't submit to him? I love all sorts of strangers that never loved me back, am I greater than Jesus?

I also don't agree with the idea that "He Himself has never violated any of the rules he has laid down". For instance; "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy" ... "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God". Did God love the Israelites as he defines love for us? It doesn't seem so. There are countless examples of him destroying Israel because they worshiped a goat or something to that effect. God's actions nearly always conflict with the nearly perfect wording of love in 1st corth. Only Jesus comes close to living up to this letter of love via some of his actions, but others, like storming the money changers, reeks men acting like men, not Gods acting out of love.

You are also arguing points of the bible to me that I don't hold to have actually existed. The book of Job being one of them. The story of Adam and Eve seems equally unlikely. Noah seems so hard to believe that I always just pretended those parts of the bible never existed when I was a Christian. They always haunted me, though. I can't honestly believe that a Guy got a large boat and packed up a billion animals without them all eating each other and shitting themselves into sickness for 40 days. Then I am supposed to believe, yet again, that the earth was repopulated by a genetically unstable amount of people.

To me, God was never real. I always wanted him to be real. Seeing so much injustice in the world made me want some person whom "makes it all right" appealing. But there is so much wrong done in the bible, under God's command no less, that I seems unlikely as a source of hope for me any longer. How many people did God ordered slaughtered in the old testament? I have seen the number placed, if you include things Sodom and Gomorrah, the firstborn Egyptian children, and such, it is around 25 million. I haven't double check that, but it sounds like a good number to start with.

Written off God, no. Like I said, I hope not to be correct. Worthiness isn't even a question. I don't thing much of me, if you knew anything about me instead of calling me arrogant by implication. The truth is, you sound like a very young Christian. I don't mean that in a bad way, mind you. But the way you speak to me is like that of dogmatic conversation and less than thought provoking. There isn't a single word you have said that I haven't heard from a sermon somewhere, or even, one that I gave myself to others. Did I mention that I have pastored people? Did I mention that I once had a small group ministry that was very successful.

In closing, I think you are conversing AT me rather than WITH me. Or so it seems, from the rather dogmatic reply form this took. While I know as a Christian your answers must be based on some amount of bible, the bible hold very little authority over the way I think now. As such, trying to appeal to me with justifications that ONLY come from the bible, like original sin take a leap of faith, one that I have denounced. You expect me to use circular logic, which I will refuse to do anymore with myself. I did that for years already, I am not going to spend any more time on it.

I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on this. I am resolved to drop the subject, unless you want to have the final word...but I most likely wont reply. I only expect us to chase our tails. With you quoting bible philosophy to me, and me saying that isn't the way it MUST be, I need convencing...and round and round we go. I don't want to say I have heard it all, because I surely haven't, but all the logic you just hit me with is stuff I have thought about, extensively, and yet still am where I am today. I don't make a lot of money, I don't have lots of possessions, but what I DO have is literally thought years of considering my religions positions. I don't take them lightly, and I didn't care for the slight, though understandable, tone change at the end of your statements; like I was just foolishly doing this with no consideration. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am not young, not getting younger, and have and will always be thinking on this subject.

Over and out...must get more beer!

I hear eli's character from there will be blood was based on cocker.

that cat's not all that...
there should be blood and screaming after the first swipe.

List from here:

0’00 - Roxanne, Adventures of Priscilla Queen of the Desert, Gleaming the Cube, The Princess Bride, A Fish Called Wanda, Star Wars, The Wizard of Oz, Casino, Three Amigos, A Clockwork Orange

1’05 - Dolemite, Glengarry Glen Ross, Bad Santa, The Witches of Eastwick, The Big Lebowski, In Bruges, Full Metal Jacket, There Will Be Blood

2’05 - Toy Story, Casablanca, Encino Man, The Women, Predator, Army of Darkness, They Live, Uncle Buck, Big Trouble in Little China, New Jack City, Billy Madison

3’00 - Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, The Departed, Carlito’s Way, In the Loop, Glengarry Glen Ross, Stand By Me, Grosse Pointe Blank, Duck Soup, Caddyshack, Planes Trains & Automobiles

4’00 - South Park, Napoleon Dynamite, Mean Girls, The Breakfast Club, As Good as It Gets, The 6th Day, Step Brothers, O Brother Where Art Thou?, Full Metal Jacket, City Slickers, Road House, True Grit, Shot Circuit

5’00 - Raging Bull, The Usual Suspects, Snatch, Caddyshack, The Last Boy Scout, Ghostbusters, The Sandlot, As Good as It Gets

6’00 - 48 Hrs, In Bruges, Silver Streak, Glengarry Glen Ross, A Fish Called Wanda, Goodfellas, National Lampoon’s Christmas Vacation, The Mist, Trading Places

7’00 - The Warriors, Point Break, Gangs of New York, Reservoir Dogs, The Breakfast Club, The Cowboys, Full Metal Jacket, Dodgeball, Donnie Darko, Scarface, The Good the Bad and the Ugly

8’00 - Anchorman, Tropic Thunder, Sexy Beast, In the Loop, Get Shorty, Blazing Saddles, The Way of the Gun, Blade: Trinity, Clerks, The Boondock Saints, The Exorcist, What About Bob?, Weird Science

9’00 - Con Air, True Romance, In the Loop, Monty Python and the Holy Grail, Lake Placid, The Front, Gone with the Wind

You know, I can respect this reply very much. The analogy is just that, similiar but different. It is hyperbole, but along with the flag burning, as we both agree, it puts things in perpective.

The tree is a slippery slope. I find permits completely appropriate because of certain situations that may arise. Say, for example, two groups book one event. One is the skin heads, and they booked their protest to meet with the black panthers... Chances are, there will be blood...

Next is an anti-gay protest/march, right into a gay activist parade (Coupled with floats and driving drag queens in little punch buggies.) This protest by the anti-gays would be completely lawful if there were no permits yet would be disasterous.

Besides, these three proved you can hold a "protest" without a permit. Just deny it is a protest.

I respect your opinion and wish we had valid freedoms in all walks of life just like you do. However, freedom is sometimes our worst enemy. People will always f-things up to where laws have to be made...

See, freedom allows you to walk past a 15 year old girl being raped and do nothing about it (Has happened in America.) It allows you to take a picture with your cell phone of a man who has been shot while trying to protect his family (Has happened.) It allows motorists to yell at someone just run over and dying to, "Get this fucking trash off the god damn road!" Freedom is the antithesis to community, sadly... But would I live anywhere else but a "free" nation? No... I just wish we had more responsibilty towards one another.

>> ^GeeSussFreeK:
I would also not call burning a flag speech. Burning a flag has nothing to do with speech and everything to do with private property. Using speech laws to either prevent or protect it is silly. While this is a better relationship to the context of the conversation, I still find that burning a flag is super dissimilar to passing out information on the street. While burning a flag "sends a message", that is the secondary point to the real issue of burning something (FIRE!). Burning your own house down should come under the same kind of freedom of being able to destroy your own stuff. In the city, that can get a bit more complicated, and most community agreements forbid such actions (in Texas, lean laws are vvveeeeeeerrrry strong, like jail time strong).
"I fail to see how you cannot wrap your head around my argument. Rape is a force. However, rape as a protest is both protesting and using force. This is simple. Just like arson is buring the flag and free speach... There is nothing hard to understand here."
This analogies fails yet again. You can't just say "I rape you as a protest instead of rape". That isn't how things work. Rape is rape first, and whatever strange thing you want to make it second. As such, you don't NEED speech laws against rape to prevent it, it is already against the law because of force. Simply put, you can't use rape as a protest, because control over someone's body that isn't yours is not a freedom you have. In other words, you can't have rape that is a protest that isn't still criminal.
You could put the shoe on the other foot and say that all murderers are just expressing free speech...but that doesn't matter, because their other actions where illegal...case closed. I think your flag analogy is a better one, though. Even so, these couple of dudes are even more understated than even the most mild flag burning.
I think a major complication is that we have blurred the lines of what protest and speech are in all legal matters regarding them. I think your flag burring is a perfect example of that. And in post analysis I think I see the tree you are trying to climb. That since it is illegal to burn stuff like your house down, that the freedom of speech laws override that burning stuff law and make burning your flag legal. However, I think it is the opposite that is true. You can burn anything down that you want that is yours, and there are special case instances where you can't (like you are on someone elses property ect ect.)
The litmus test for most freedoms is easy. People are free to pass by, to refuse their offers. They are less obtrusive than your average commercial, billboard, or advertisement. And look to be as threatening as a basset hound with a bad hip. If you want to live in a world were people like that are criminals, fine, but I don't.

>> ^rottenseed:
Is there really an eternal battle? I didn't know about Italian Greyhounds until I read comments on this thread. I know about wippets because my family owned several generations.
>> ^mxxcon:
>> ^choggie:
^ was wondering about that mutated chihuahua....Wrong head for Italian Greyhound....unless their heads shrink as they grow, maybe it's a cross..Chihuahua/Whippet??

here we go. the eternal battle of determining if a given dog is an Italian greyhound or a whippet
i think there was less blood shed during the holy crusades than arguing italian greyhound vs whippet.

not "battle" but i've seen many threads on iggy/whippy forums arguing if a given dog is a whippet or an italian greyhound..especially if a given dog is in between of either breed's specs.

i love iggies. i think they are one of the best apartment breeds one can have.

Is there really an eternal battle? I didn't know about Italian Greyhounds until I read comments on this thread. I know about wippets because my family owned several generations.

>> ^mxxcon:
>> ^choggie:
^ was wondering about that mutated chihuahua....Wrong head for Italian Greyhound....unless their heads shrink as they grow, maybe it's a cross..Chihuahua/Whippet??

here we go. the eternal battle of determining if a given dog is an Italian greyhound or a whippet
i think there was less blood shed during the holy crusades than arguing italian greyhound vs whippet.

>> ^choggie:
^ was wondering about that mutated chihuahua....Wrong head for Italian Greyhound....unless their heads shrink as they grow, maybe it's a cross..Chihuahua/Whippet??


here we go. the eternal battle of determining if a given dog is an Italian greyhound or a whippet

i think there was less blood shed during the holy crusades than arguing italian greyhound vs whippet.

This is the awesomest thing in the history of awesome. I haven't been this excited for a movie since There Will Be Blood. This needs about ten times more votes. *promote!

1. I had an ex-boyfriend violently try to kill himself in front of me. It fucked me up and I dropped out of life for about four years. All my friends gave up on trying to get me out of my shell. As of right now, I have no physical friends aside from my family. I beat myself up about shutting everyone out so completely.

2. I also have an ex-boyfriend who is on death row and he's been there for 8 years. He killed some police officers and when they were fleeing, my friend Allen was gunned down.

3. I had a boyfriend who drowned in a lake. I don't like to call him an ex because we never broke up. He died. It's been almost ten years and I still go to his old LiveJournal and read all the entries and cry.

4. I had a terrifying experience in New Orleans when I was 16. It never showed itself to me, but made awful tapping noises all over my hotel room. Whenever I tried to wake up my parents, it would stop. I was so very very scared.. Even typing this now, I have to repress the urge to cry and turn on all my lights. I'm sweating. When I went to sleep that night, I curled against the headboard, with my back out towards the room. I woke up in the morning and took a hot shower and when I turned around, the hot water stung on my back. I looked at my back in the mirror and there were three long scratches spanning diagonally from the tops of my shoulders to my waist. Even though they had obviously bled and scabbed, there was no blood on my shirt or on the bra I had been wearing. That experience really fucked up my religious beliefs. I like to say that I'm a complete atheist, but whenever I say that, I think back to that night and I'm afraid of what an afterlife is and who or what exists in it.

5. I'm leaking breast milk all over my legs right now, but I'm ignoring the mess.

6. Mensa tried to recruit me as a little girl and it freaked me out. They sent so many letters and called to speak to me all the time. They tried to talk to me at school but I was convinced they were some kind of cult. Plus, they wanted me to spend my summer taking classes and doing homework. Crazy fuckers.

7. I had some rare kind of nerve cancer as a teenager and they cut the tumor from my chin when I was 16. The tumor and the consequent surgery left the lower part of my face numb and my lower lip a bit unresponsive. I drool on myself sometimes and when it's pointed out, I vehemently tell them I had cancer. It makes me laugh at how they scramble to apologize.

8. I used to be really into music and I've played with several bands, ranging from rock to jazz to blues to just jamming. I was really into it and I loved performing at dives and all the free beer. No one cards you when you're the band. But after my ex tried to kill himself, I fell out of that world, too. I regret that more than anything. I love music.. Now I just play for me and somehow it's not the same.

9. I play piano, clarinet, alto and soprano recorders[Hey, those are real instruments, too!], cello, violin, guitar, bass, any stringed instrument really, drum kit, hand drums, etc etc. I haven't really found an instrument I couldn't play. I like to sing a lot. My baby loves it when I sing. That pleases me greatly!! He's my number on fan.

10. I was expelled the last semester of my senior year from high school for doodling in my notebook a stick figure with a crude gun pointed at its head. It was accompanied by the sentence "I hate chemistry." The teacher walked by and saw it, seized it and dragged me to the principal. I was arrested for threatening students with a handgun. [My drawing wasn't specific, I mean, it could have been a sawed-off shotgun?? It was more of a sideways L..] I got 9 months of probation and had to get my diploma by correspondence. It was hilarious and fucked up all at the same time.

11. I had a neighbor freak out on cocaine and whatever else that guy was on. He came over and kept my roommates and I hostage and screamed at us about "sounding out" at night. He also put my roommate's Diamonda Galas CD on and played it full volume. That's what got the police there. Thank God for Diamonda's screeching voice or my other neighbor's wouldn't have called the cops. He also tried to strangle our cat. When the police finally busted down the back door, he was screaming about how he would kill us all. The cops took him to the ground and he told them he was the mayor and they would be fired. Heh.

12. I've been the victim of rape many times. I wonder sometimes if I have an aura that tells people it's ok to hurt me like that..

13. When my baby cried for almost 7 hours straight, I honestly contemplated smothering him. I feel evil because of that.

14. I had a college reading level by fourth grade and teachers would get upset that I wanted to read during recess. I read the same books as my mother and father and of course, some had "questionable" content. Whenever they confiscated one of my books, my dad would get royally pissed and scream at them over the phone. I still love to read. I read compulsively. I read all the labels of everything I buy just because. When I take a shit, if there's nothing to read, I read the back of the shampoo or whatever is close by. To my utter shame, I have read harlequin romance novels. I'll read anything within arms reach, even if it's utter shite. I really love a good book, though. Don't get me wrong!

15. I won a national short story contest for children when I was 12. The story was about a demon who disemboweled hapless victims during one cold winter night. I only really remember one part where the entrails steamed in the snow. What the fuck was wrong with those judges??

16. I talk way, way too much.

17. I have CPS involved in my life because I tested positive in my urine for marijuana when I went to the hospital to deliver my son. I hadn't smoked pot in almost six months. The CPS people call me a liar, but I'm not fucking lying. I read that pot can sometimes be detected up to 90 days after, but it had been twice that. Now I have to go to counseling twice a week for 6 months and they randomly drop by and drug test. They assess my whole house each time and write it up when I don't do the goddamn dishes. I hate CPS. Where were they when I was being abused as a child? Why didn't they care about rape and physical abuse? They ignored me when I begged for help..

18. I'm often way too candid.

19. I hold a grudge like a mother fucker. I try very very hard not to hate certain people. But I often fail.

20. I really love VideoSift. I used to be really into IRC. I have a long history of communicating and making friends over the internet. But the Sift is my favorite. I stopped for a long time and it was really hard not to come here and browse. I would find myself absent-mindedly typing the url. Oi.

21. I'm really into Facebook. It's the only way I talk to my estranged family and friends.

22. I love music, if you can't tell by the stuff I sift. Any and all types of music, except for bad music. Har har. Farhad's queue is one of my favorite places to peruse.

23. When I bare my soul to people, it never ever turns out right.

24. I tend to over-punctuate!!@!!!@1!!11!1!@!111one

25. I love to smile and be cheerful. I find humor in even the most dire of tragedies and I often get flack from that. People don't understand it, I guess.

"beaten brutly [sic]?"

I must have missed the part when the couple got curb-stomped. This was nothing more than bitch slaps and hair pulling. Come back to me when there's some blood spewing and broken noses/teeth/ribs/organs =P

^not sure encouraging him to prank his brother is a good idea... i'm not sure he would show the proper restraint. There would be blood..

Or remotes.

The Kats and their Monkey Army will fall as rain from the sky... and there will be blood.

>> ^nomino:
It looks like the German Shepard got hit a couple of times with the Samurai sword. I think that's what he's stabbing at before they take him down.


To me, it sounded like he hit something solid, the dog seemed fine shortly after and there was no blood or anything on the blade at the station.

Besides, that "sword" looks like you couldn't even cut a bloody cake with it. Probably a decorative piece of junk, though better safe than sorry.

Oh and German cops don't carry tasers as far as i know. Some states, including Hamburg, have them in their arsenal, but only special units use them.

oh my god, "there will be blood"..... eeeeewww!