Skeeve, to me this statement is evidence that your perception of sex has been warped (possibly by porn?): "If his wife wont do these things with him then that is her problem, not his and definitely not porn's fault."

I don't know what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that women should consent to doing whatever a man wants to do in the bedroom? Couples have to compromise about sex as with anything else. He is saying that he can't be satisfied without doing these things, and that IS porn's fault, not his wife's.

"...a marriage in which the partners don't agree on matters of sex is a marriage that shouldn't last. This is something that had been known for thousands of years by nearly every civilization... until Christianity started forcing itself into the bedroom."

What does this even mean? And what's up the whole part about Christianity? How does that make any sense whatsoever? Christianity ruined sex or something?

If a couple can't agree on matters of sex, it's just like everything else in a relationship. They have to work it out. I agree that sex is extremely important for healthy relationships, but it isn't the MOST important thing. I know a lady who was sexually abused as a child. She remained a virgin until after her marriage. The couple soon realized that her sexual abuse had seriously undermined her ability to have a good sexual relationship. He loved her, so they went to counselors and therapy and they worked it out. They've been married for over 30 years now.

In my culture, porn is discouraged. Believe it or not, many men and women don't use it. Also, many people are virgins when they get married. Sex is kind of amazing in that if you're attracted to someone, it usually works just fine. It's as if people have been having sex for thousands of years! It's almost like it's a natural thing that people do, even without porn! It's amazing!

To me it seems obvious that if you use porn and need to fantasize about other women to perform, sex in general isn't going to be as satisfying or as intimate. I would venture to say that most people who use porn think that fantasizing about someone other than your partner is normal, even necessary. And, actually, it may be more common than not. This is the result of a diseased, confused society. It's emotional infidelity. It is neither natural nor necessary. Porn makes thousands of women feel inadequate. When guys don't use porn, their sexual partner (and perhaps some useful ideas on how to keep your sex life exciting) is all that they need for a good sex life. It worked that way for thousands of years.

So, Pinky, I read those articles and they completely cemented my opinion for me, thank you.

I didn't disagree that pornography is addictive, just that it is psychological and not to be compared with real physically dependent addictions. Just as you said, "the panelists themselves acknowledged, there is no consensus among mental health professionals about the dangers of porn or the use of the term 'pornography addiction.'"

I also love the generalizations in these: "people who use pornography feel dead inside" right... how about: "Pornography does damage because it encourages people to make their home in shallow relationships," I know that one is bogus.

This quote is my favorite: By the time Nick Samuels had reached his mid-20s, it was altering his view of what he wanted from a sexual relationship. ‘I used to watch porn with one of my girlfriends, and I started to want to try things I'd seen in the films.’ Married for 15 years, he admits he has carried the same sexual expectations into the marital bedroom. ‘There's been real friction over this: my wife simply isn't that kind of person. And it's only now, after all these years, that I'm beginning to move on from it. Porn is like alcoholism: it clings to you like a leech.’

If his wife wont do these things with him then that is her problem, not his and definitely not porn's fault. My girlfriend and I love to watch porn together. Part of the fun is trying new things out and it keeps the sex interesting. Sex is an intensely important part of a relationship, and a marriage in which the partners don't agree on matters of sex is a marriage that shouldn't last. This is something that had been known for thousands of years by nearly every civilization... until Christianity started forcing itself into the bedroom.

As for your personal experiences, they are what they are, but a few examples of porn addiction cannot make for a suitable base for a consensus. Consider how many people are users of pornography and compare that with the number of people who have a serious problem and you will no doubt find that there are much more important issues to worry about (including America's obesity - a point which I stand by).

Anyway, I am done with this discussion as neither of us will sway the other. I'll just leave you with one more fact. The only concerted efforts to stop pornography (not including the obviously harmful child pornography), whether in the US or worldwide, have come from religious groups or feminist groups. No one else wants pornography to end.

Well, I looked up some stuff for you.

"Mary Anne Layden, co-director of the Sexual Trauma and Psychopathology Program at the University of Pennsylvania's Center for Cognitive Therapy, called porn the 'most concerning thing to psychological health that I know of existing today.'

'The internet is a perfect drug delivery system because you are anonymous, aroused and have role models for these behaviors,' Layden said. 'To have drug pumped into your house 24/7, free, and children know how to use it better than grown-ups know how to use it -- it's a perfect delivery system if we want to have a whole generation of young addicts who will never have the drug out of their mind.'

Pornography addicts have a more difficult time recovering from their addiction than cocaine addicts, since coke users can get the drug out of their system, but pornographic images stay in the brain forever, Layden said.'"

This woman's opinion is rather extreme, but to an extent I agree with her, based on things that I've seen.

I didn't say that porn addiction is worse than alcoholism. I compared it to nicotine addiction. I admit, my assertion was based on purely subjective personal opinion. I have known several people who have overcome a nicotine addiction with no lasting physical or psychological affects. On the other hand, I have known people who have tried to beat a porn habit and either failed or are still tempted, even years later. A very good friend of mine married a guy who lied to her about his porn habit. She found out about it and went through some serious trauma. He bawled like a baby when she told him that she was emotionally incapable of having sex with him unless he quit the habit. He tried and failed to quit and the marriage ended. I know no less that three other guys who quit using pornography for personal reasons. Two of them, years later, expressed to me how difficult it was to quit. At times it felt impossible. And they are both still tempted. I have another friend who is manic depressive and he says that he can't get over his emotional dependency on porn, though he has been trying for years. One guy I talked to compared porn addiction to "chasing the dragon," a phrase that is used in reference to heroine. Another guy said that porn images still haunt him.

I admit that experts can't agree on whether or not porn is "addictive." Most of them agree, on the other hand, that it is a compulsion, habit-forming, and that the effects are lasting.

Skeeve, you said that my "pizza consumption (or at least some people's) does hurt people besides you... America is dying at continually younger ages of early onset heart disease, diabetes, etc., largely thanks to unhealthy diets. I guarantee you that fatty foods are not only physically responsible for more deaths in America than porn but also lead to more psychological problems in the people who develop negative body image thanks to that bad nutrition."

I started writing a response, but then I realized that it isn't worth my time to try and explain why your porn vs. pizza comparison is bogus.

As far as I know, the majority of female porn actors don't experience such psychological scarring. Infact it's one of the very few industries out there in which women are paid much more than men.

"Most, if not all of the scientific studies undertaken to document the effects of porn on society demonstrate various social benefits directly attributable to its availability. Drastically lower rates of sex crimes is one benefit that has been enjoyed in Sweden, Denmark, and Japan, as the porn studies listed below demonstrate."

http://solomonsrefuge.com/PornStudies.htm

^Very interesting site.

Like it or not, porn saves lives.

I have read Richard Clarke's book. It was good.
He was one of the few whitehouse staffers that wasn't replaced when bush took office (and he served other presidents before clinton as well).

Most remarkable comment about the day of Sept 11th was that Condi Rice's reaction was near panic to the point where she became completely useless at her job.

I also liked his remark about how Bill Clinton was always up late reading books (no, not porn mags) and always read every major paper each morning. And George W. Bush was always in bed around 9pm. (I guess the latter relied more on prayer for guidance, than on information).

awesome. art. not. porn.

Dupe: http://www.videosift.com/video/Not-porn

its definently not porn. and its not offensive.
its retarded and pointless, but not porn.

Return this video! It's not porn. It's not offensive. It's just boobies. Who cares? It's marked NSFW. If you don't like it, don't vote on it.

>> ^K0MMIE:
If this gives you wood, you need to go outside and try and meet girls.
This does NOT hurt the sift, it just hurts your pussy sensibilities. Again, let the sift police itself through votes.


I could not of said it better. Fully dressed people talking is not porn. This shit is hilarious and people need to lighten up. Merry Christmas.

Too many young girls post videos to youtube that walk the line between porn and not porn. They just need to jump the fence and start using youporn.

I'm home alone and have nothing better to do than respond to this thread, because a lot of the comments in here still bother me. So... here goes nothing.

>> ^MarineGunrock:
>> The video in question (Dita) is an act of grace a beauty, not a vivid depiction of sex. The act is designed to be something that one merely watches, from which they are detached and it is forever that way. It is a solo act meant to please for the sake of a good show.


WRONG! There is absolutely nothing graceful or beautiful about that (or her, really). See my comment on the performance in a minute.


Dirty books, on the other hand, are of a couple's acts in the bedroom, written to suck the reader into the characters words and actions, even letting them place themselves into the character's shoes. The book is more about being a part of the act, making the reader imagine (through ample use of details and adjectives) every part of sex. It's porn you read, and not watch, though I will say it is not disgusting or objectifying as real porn.


You know why women love romance novels? Because we can imagine it's our significant other doing everything the protagonist in the novel is. Generally it's a scene that plays out in our minds with the characters, not us (women). But even if we were picturing ourselves in that mental scene, it would be with our significant other. Because really, the sex scenes in romance novels are a lot more exciting than ones in real life. If we got enough romance, we wouldn't need to read romance novels. There's nothing disgusting or objectifying about getting a little inspiration. It's erotica - not porn.


My question to you is this: How can you tell the internet in one comment that "Even I can appreciate burlesque" but in the next, tell the internet that it's not acceptable for men with significant others to watch it, if only for art of the performance?


Burlesque is an art, but that's not burlesque. That's a terrible, terrible striptease. You haven't seen any of the great old burlesque. It originated as a sort of comedy show. Gypsy Rose Lee (who, by the way, the Warner Brothers movie "Gypsy" is about. I guarantee you Dita is not burlesque if Warner Bros. did a burlesque movie) and Sally Rand (not quite as good, I don't think, but still notable, and the woman who originated the fan dance). Do you see any comedy in Dita's "work?" I didn't think so. It used to be a complete one-act comedy show, not a two-minute, poorly-done dance where you end up in nothing but nipple pasties and a g-string. Look up some of the Bettie Page stuff on here.

P.S. "Even I can appreciate burlesque" means I like some, but not this [Dita]. For someone who admits they've only seen two clips of burlesque, how dare you confront me on something like that? Look up the history of burlesque. Maybe watch someone other than Dita von Teese. It's like someone saying they don't like a particular artist, or a particular period in art history. It doesn't mean I dislike every painting ever made, or that no one should look at art anymore because I decided I don't like it. Burlesque has never been about the ability to strip down from a dress to pasties and a g-string in less than 20 seconds. There's nothing burlesque about her act - it's a striptease, pure and simple.


I hold that burlesque is only that; an art. I personally don't get any arousal from it, not does it raise any carnal desires within myself. Hell, I've only seen two instances of it, both here on the sift. The female body, with all it's curves, is designed to flow like water in almost all directions. Combined with graceful movements and a dynamic act, it is a thing of grace and beauty.


Oh please. You just admitted yourself you've only ever seen two instances of burlesque. How can you possibly go on about how graceful it is, and how it's such a glorious artform, when you've seen two "dances," both by the same woman?

>> ^MarineGunrock:
As I looked around, I saw (obviously) many women in bikinis. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing bad about bikinis, but it got me thinking about the whole "objectification" thing. If women, as a whole, don't want to be objectified, why wear such a reveling swim suit when there are plenty of good looking alternatives? [edit] What I'm saying it that it opens them up to it.
And for that matter, why put make up on?


1) You've heard it before, but it obviously bears repeating - Women don't dress up for men. They dress up for other women. I shouldn't have to think every morning when I get dressed, "If I see someone with a penis today, will he say something lewd if I'm wearing this? Might someone possibly get excited?" I dress for other women. Would they think I'm attractive? Intimidating? Smart? Chic? If I wanted to dress to attract attention from men, I'd walk around in a bikini top and shorts. But I don't.

2) Just because women wear revealing clothing doesn't mean they're inviting you to look. I lost 20 pounds and bought myself a bikini, because I felt good about my body again. I regained so much self-confidence just by owning it, and that I was no longer embarrassed or felt fat walking around in one. That doesn't mean I wear it just to attract attention, or in the hopes that guys compliment me. I wouldn't take a compliment seriously if I was wearing a bikini anyway - I know my boobs are all you were looking at.

Maybe I wear makeup because I want to feel pretty, or I got a pimple this morning, or I have a sunburn and my skin tone is uneven. Why should it matter?

Dupe
http://www.videosift.com/search?q=not+porn

A foreign language channel? Theres this german clip I wanted to post...
it's not porn, honestly...

Nothing in those "myths" can really be proven, because they are generalized ideas about a personal issue. That being said, I'd still like to answer them.

1. The issue is not whether or not porn cultivates a good relationship; it shouldn't need to do that. In some circumstances it could possibly add to a relationship, but that depends on the mentality of the people involved. In any event, if porn is a crutch for your relationship, the relationship has been over for a long time.

2. I don't know who watches porn for the aesthetics, but they need serious mental help if they do.

3. This is an extremely flimsy premise upon which to judge a subject. I'm not sure what negative means in this context, because porn affects people just as differently as a painting in a museum. I may just be a moral relativist, but I don't see how anybody could clearly outline this objectively.

4. Some of them do, and some of them don't. If a woman has a low IQ and double-D tits, maybe she likes the idea of driving her sports car to her mansion after a day of fucking on film, instead of busing tables at a diner for her apartment rent. I know I can't blame her. And the part about men respecting them...most of the porn stars probably don't care one bit. Maybe some of them are stronger than that, and don't need a man's respect to feel justified. Maybe some porn stars are strong feminists.

5. Once again, this is grasping for ideas outside of the necessary framework of a relationship. If a man has thoughts of being unfaithful, porn is not going to satisfy those urges. That's like saying I want to cheat on my math test, but instead I'll just watch a video of someone cheating on a math test. Not the same thing in the slightest degree. Cheating men cheat, regardless of the circumstances.

6. As if women are seduced into the line of work, only to find out they were horribly wrong and now have no hope of escape from this torturous prison of sexual slavery? Change the word "women" to "men", and this "myth" sounds ludicrous. Actually, it sounds ludicrous anyway. Oh, and what does the word "valuable" mean? How do we value value?

7. Just a regurgitation of number 5.

8. Who cares if women are empowered by porn? I'm a man and I've never felt empowered by my line of work. I've felt demeaned and enslaved, hollow and used. But never empowered.

9. Some people do, and that is their choice. It's also their choice to go to the ER after being unable to retrieve an object from an orifice. Porn is a fantasy, unless it's applied to real life. Just like a movie where a man interrupts the wedding of his one true love to steal her away from the heartless man she is about to marry. In reality, that gets you arrested for stalking. so yes, porn is a fantasy. But we must watch how we translate it into reality. If two consenting adults choose to do indescribable things to each other, that's their fun. And if one of them feels uncomfortable doing something, it is the other's responsibility to understand their need and find a solution that is equitable for both parties involved. No means no.

On a personal note, I don't really have a view of porn, either for or against. It serves a purpose for many people, and that is their deal, not mine.