When your grasp on reality is broken, you can be convinced of any nonsense.

I wonder how this man profits from spreading this misinformation.

So you know, bob. Oil isn’t made out of dinosaurs, it’s made up mostly of decomposed diatoms, algae, zooplankton, and other microorganisms, transformed under heat and pressure.
It is a finite resource.
If we burn it all, it’s CO2 emissions alone would cause an estimated approximately 200 ft of sea level rise (and likely near total planetary extinction).

PS- shouldn’t it be “The oranges of oil falsely defined in 1892”?

Hi voodooV..sorry it took me so long to reply.

you're committing another logical fallacy here. Argument from ignorance. just because you can't think of any other reason for morality doesn't prove god did it.

The fallacy you mentioned doesn't apply. The argument isn't for Gods existence, the argument is that atheism is incoherent because it has no foundation for morality, among other reasons. Ravi asked the question, without God what are the Ontic referrants for reality?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontic

To answer your question though. Survival...pure survival is pretty much the foundation of morality. what behavior ensures a long, prosperous and happy life? That's your morality right there. And it's all based on logic and reason, not an imaginary god.

is it better to be a dick to someone or is it better to work with other people. hrm...which ensures a higher probability of success in your endeavors.

is better in the long run to help or to hurt. Which ensures a greater likelyhood that people will be willing to help YOU out when you need it.

virtually everything that we consider moral today is the evolution (gasp) of instinctual rules we've learned over the millions (not thousands) of years that ensure a longer, happier life.

What you're talking about is pragmatism, which is to say that if it works then it is the best way to do things. Yet plenty of people have led long, prosperous and happy lives by exploiting other people for their gain. That's what works for them, so why shouldn't I emulate that standard of behavior instead of being self-sacrificing? Some of the most successful people who have ever lived got there by being terrible human beings. Basically, your standard of survival isn't about what is right, but what is right for me and that is entirely arbitrary. It also is an incoherent standard for morality.

Which is why only two of your commandments still hold up as secular laws.

I forget where I learned this but even biblical morality can be traced back to rules that made sense, at the time, that ensured survival. I think it has been shown that many of the biblical rules involving not eating certain foods can be traced back to diseases or some other logical reason, but hey, we didn't have an understanding of these pesky little things called bacteria and microorganisms back then so when you ate a certain food and died, that wasn't science, it was your imaginary sky god who was angry with you.

What's really interesting about that is that Moses was educated as an Egyptian prince, which was the most advanced country in the world at the time. He would have certainly been exposed to their medical knowledge, but you won't find a shred of that in the bible. The Egyptians were doing things like applying dung to peoples wounds, whereas the Laws of Moses detailed procedures for disease control, like hand washing and quarantine procedures, as well as public sanitation, and dietary laws which prevented the spread of parasites. They were thousands of years ahead of their time; we only started washing our hands to control disease in the past 200 years.

Even your fear and hatred of homosexuality and abortion can be easily explained by survival. When your village only numbered in the hundreds or maybe thousands and simple diseases and winters wiped out LOTS of people, discouraging homosexuality and abortion is actually a pretty good idea when the survival of your species is at stake. But when you've got advanced medicine and we've got the whole food and shelter thing dealt with and our population is now 7 billion. the whole "be fruitful and multiply" thing just isn't necessary anymore. In fact, it's becoming a problem. and Once again, survival will dictate our morality. If we do nothing to combat overpopulation and resources become an issue, I guarantee you that large families will eventually have a negative stigma attached to them until the situation is resolved.

You're talking to a former agnostic who once approved of homosexuality and abortion. I am not afraid of it, and I don't hate the people doing it. This is a clash of presuppositions; if there isn't a God then I couldn't give you an absolute reason why people cannot have homosexual relationships or murder their unborn children. If we're all just glorified apes contending for limited resources, then in that paradigm it may be necessary to cull the herd. I think the appropriate response though to someone contending we should eliminate vast swaths of the human populace to save the planet is, "you first".

But God is in control and this is His planet, and since He is still creating human beings, He will provide the resources to take care of them. It's the iniquity of mankind which is limiting the resources when the truth is that we have way more than enough to take care of everyone. Take for example the fact that over 30 thousand people starve to death every day. Is that because we don't have enough food? Actually, we have more than enough food yet we waste about 1/3 of the world food supply every year. The gross world product in 2012 was over 84 trillion dollars, more than enough to feed, clothe, house and vaccinate every single person on the planet. Those people die not because there isn't enough, but because the wickedness of man.

Don't ask me though, ask an anthropologist or sociologist. They've been studying this stuff for decades. I'm sure you could even find an anthropologist/sociologist that believes in god and they'd still say the same thing. our understanding of reality changes....as does morality. no one takes seriously the old biblical rules about stoning unruly kids, working the sabbath, and wearing clothing of two types of fabric anymore. So why should we listen other outdated biblical rules that don't apply anymore. As countless others of sifters have already informed you, you have the burden of proof and you haven't met it yet.

Call me when someone discovers a disease or some other problem that arises when you mix two fabrics and we'll revisit those rules k?

God has three kinds of laws, moral civil and cermonial. The rules you're referring to were civil and ceremonial laws for Israel and not for the rest of the world. They have no application today because they were connected to the Old Covenant God had with Israel. God has a New Covenant with the whole world that doesn't include those laws. The moral laws of God do not change with time, or ever. And although we fancy ourselves as more enlightened today, the reality of the world we live in tells us that human nature hasn't changed one bit. Human nature is every bit as ugly and self serving as it always has been. If you peel back the thin veneer of civility you will find a boiling pot of iniquity.

Stop committing basic logical fallacies and you might learn this stuff for yourself You haven't ever said anything that isn't easily invalidated by a simple logical fallacy or hasn't already been debunked long ago.

It's easy to speak in generalities; if I have committed a logical fallacy, then specifically point it out. The one that you detailed earlier did not apply.

Do you watch the Atheist Experience videos Shiny? because every time I watch one of the videos and listened to the same old tired theist "arguments" over and over again. I'm always reminded of you because you just aren't saying anything new. If you're serious about understanding why your ideas just don't pan out and you're not just trolling, you should seriously watch those.

I've watched the show, and again, I was a lifelong agnostic before becoming a Christian. I was pretty far left and would have probably fit in well with the lot of you not too many years ago. So, this is all to say that I understand where you're coming from and why you think and believe the way you do, because I used to think and believe in the same ways. Your mindset isn't a mystery to me. What I've learned about it is that God has to reveal Himself to a person before they will know anything about Him. Everyone gets some revelation and it is up to them to follow it. I received the revelation that there is a God and I pursued that for many years until He revealed Himself to me through His Son Jesus Christ. He has revealed Himself to you and everyone else on this website in some form or fashion. You would be shocked to hear some of the revelation people have received and turned away from, or rationalized away later. Statistics show that 10 percent of self professing atheists pray, and that is because they are unable to within themselves completely deny the revelation that they have received. I guarantee you there are atheists on this board who wrestle with all of this but since it isn't something atheists talk about (or would admit to publicly) you would never know it, that you're all keeping a lid on the truth.

you're committing another logical fallacy here. Argument from ignorance. just because you can't think of any other reason for morality doesn't prove god did it.

To answer your question though. Survival...pure survival is pretty much the foundation of morality. what behavior ensures a long, prosperous and happy life? That's your morality right there. And it's all based on logic and reason, not an imaginary god.

is it better to be a dick to someone or is it better to work with other people. hrm...which ensures a higher probability of success in your endeavors.

is better in the long run to help or to hurt. Which ensures a greater likelyhood that people will be willing to help YOU out when you need it.

virtually everything that we consider moral today is the evolution (gasp) of instinctual rules we've learned over the millions (not thousands) of years that ensure a longer, happier life.

Which is why only two of your commandments still hold up as secular laws.

I forget where I learned this but even biblical morality can be traced back to rules that made sense, at the time, that ensured survival. I think it has been shown that many of the biblical rules involving not eating certain foods can be traced back to diseases or some other logical reason, but hey, we didn't have an understanding of these pesky little things called bacteria and microorganisms back then so when you ate a certain food and died, that wasn't science, it was your imaginary sky god who was angry with you.

Even your fear and hatred of homosexuality and abortion can be easily explained by survival. When your village only numbered in the hundreds or maybe thousands and simple diseases and winters wiped out LOTS of people, discouraging homosexuality and abortion is actually a pretty good idea when the survival of your species is at stake. But when you've got advanced medicine and we've got the whole food and shelter thing dealt with and our population is now 7 billion. the whole "be fruitful and multiply" thing just isn't necessary anymore. In fact, it's becoming a problem. and Once again, survival will dictate our morality. If we do nothing to combat overpopulation and resources become an issue, I guarantee you that large families will eventually have a negative stigma attached to them until the situation is resolved.

Don't ask me though, ask an anthropologist or sociologist. They've been studying this stuff for decades. I'm sure you could even find an anthropologist/sociologist that believes in god and they'd still say the same thing. our understanding of reality changes....as does morality. no one takes seriously the old biblical rules about stoning unruly kids, working the sabbath, and wearing clothing of two types of fabric anymore. So why should we listen other outdated biblical rules that don't apply anymore. As countless others of sifters have already informed you, you have the burden of proof and you haven't met it yet.

Call me when someone discovers a disease or some other problem that arises when you mix two fabrics and we'll revisit those rules k?

Stop committing basic logical fallacies and you might learn this stuff for yourself You haven't ever said anything that isn't easily invalidated by a simple logical fallacy or hasn't already been debunked long ago.

Do you watch the Atheist Experience videos Shiny? because every time I watch one of the videos and listened to the same old tired theist "arguments" over and over again. I'm always reminded of you because you just aren't saying anything new. If you're serious about understanding why your ideas just don't pan out and you're not just trolling, you should seriously watch those.

Acetic acid (C2H4O2) is what is most likely going to form for the extra CO2 absorption in the atmosphere into the oceans. And just like the egg here, it will dissolve the shells of microorganisms or prevent them from extracting calcium carbonate( CaCO3) from solution (ocean water)

@KnivesOut . Yes. Just as today.. living people would be a problem. Some defense against pirates would be helpful, ala Swiss Family Robinson. The island would also have to be far enough from shore that any infected half dead would turn to full zombies before arriving.. the boat ride acts as a period of quarantine.
About zombies walking along the sea floor, or floating their bloated corpses across: Don't worry, the sharks, crabs, and hagfish would get them - microorganisms are not the only decomposers out there.

Thje coolest Planets I've ever experienced in Sci-fi are the four worlds from the "The Four Lords of the Diamond" A series of four science fiction novels by author Jack L. Chalker.

"The Warden Diamond is a system of four planets, each very different from the other, ruled by their own lords, collectively called “The Four Lords of the Diamond.” Each planet of the Diamond has its own special “Warden Organism,” a symbiotic microorganism that lives within the inhabitants of the planets. However, the organisms destroy their host when he or she leaves the Warden Diamond, making the planet system the ideal prison colony for the Confederacy, a massive space empire."

The series features four books, each centering on one of the four planets of:
"Lilith: A Snake in the Grass" (Del Rey 1981, ISBN 0-345-29369-X)
"Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold" (Del Rey 1981, ISBN 0-345-31122-1)
"Charon: A Dragon at the Gate" (Del Rey 1982, ISBN 0-345-29370-3)
"Medusa: A Tiger by the Tail" (Del Rey 1983, ISBN 0-345-29372-X)


These books have repeatedly been in and out of press. I've bought them several times, then lent them out. Some of the most complex and thought out worlds I've experienced in sci-fi reading. Unfortunately, no movies were ever make. However unlikely, I am forever hopeful. ;:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Lords_of_the_Diamond

Silver definitely has some medically useful effects, but nowhere near what this guy claims. In fact most heavy metals have an anti-biotic effect (called an oligodynamic effect). The reason why silver is used is because it is the least toxic to mammals. Specifically, silver ions irreversibly damage key enzyme systems in cells and in doing so kill most microorganisms. This is why you can find bandages and medical equipment that incorporates silver.

Colloidal solutions of silver, what this guy is selling, have never demonstrated the proposed curative effects in clinical studies, and have actually resulted in toxicity in a number of cases. There is no evidence that silver does anything medically except kill things (including the people who take it in large enough doses).

>> ^Throbbin:
All that aside, has anyone investigated the potential medicinal effects of silver? Reason says there's a 99% chance this guy is nuts. But anyone who has noticed the massive attention being paid to Vitamin D recently as the Vitamin that can cure anything in the 'Professional" medical community should also understand that if someone made those claims about Vitamin D 20 years ago, they'd be labelled a snake oil salesman too.

WARNING!:

Handrail may house multiple virus strains, unicellular prokaryotic microorganisms of the class Schizomycetes and/or other contagious substances and bacteria.

DO NOT TOUCH.

Ok, so she found microorganisms that can make you sick. But in what quantities? This video doesn't say. How much of these bacteria do you have to eat before they make you sick? No mention of that either. I'd like to know how the type and quantity of microbes on lemon wedges compare with those in our home kitchens.

Even if lemon wedges do make people sick, this video is still bad. Its message is "FEAR!" But if these wedges are so bad, a more useful message would be "Bartenders should wash their hands and equipment more often."

So much for 'Sciencecentral' They don't even specify if the 17% bacteria difference between hands occurs in both left-handed and right-handed people. Of course there would be a 'difference' because you don't use your dominant hand in the same way as your other hand and therefore it is not exposed to the same surfaces. How is that surprising? women tend to have longer nails, is that a factor? what about hand creams and other chemicals women use more often than men? none of that was mentioned.

"Why do we have so many bacteria and what are they doing there?" are you serious? the human body is a paradise for microorganisms; predictably stable, warm, nutrient rich environment. The human body can harbor as much as 10000 times as many bacterial cells as human cells and he asks why are there so many species on our hands?

He did not even say which of the 150 something species found are actually harmful. There is bacteria all over the skin all the time, but only a few cause harm, and most are kept in check thanks to the skin. Many species have lived with human beings for thousands of years.
Why do you think as soon as we die and consequently, homeostasis stops, do our bodies get consumed by bacteria so quickly?

I am all for scientific news but the quality of this piece is fucking ridiculous.

Does anyone remember a few months back, some classified sample results, a hushed meeting at the White House?

I've been wondering if NASA found living microorganisms, in the ice under their probe, and were forced to keep it quiet, because of the social ramifications.

Thank you so very much, volumptuous.

For Mars to have actual microorganisms is the best birthday present I could EVER have hoped for, let alone it actually turning out to be the truth, which it seems it will. Yup, today's my birthday.

I was SURE extraterrestrial life would be found in my lifetime, just not this soon. I am overjoyed. So much so, in fact, that I sifted it:
http://www.videosift.com/video/Breaking-LIFE-ON-MARS-biologically-produced-methane

Harmless strains of E Coli are part of the normal, beneficial flora of the human gut, so it seems plausible that they're also present in the normal, beneficial flora of the human vagina.

Harmless strains [of E Coli] are part of the normal flora of the gut, and can benefit their hosts by producing vitamin K2,[3] or by preventing the establishment of pathogenic bacteria within the intestine.[4][5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_coli

Since a healthy vagina is colonized by a mutually symbiotic flora of microorganisms that protect its host from disease-causing microbes, any attempt to upset this balance [soap, douching, feminine hygiene products] may cause many undesirable outcomes, including but not limited to abnormal discharge and yeast infection. The acidity of a healthy vagina due to lactic acid secreted by symbiotic microorganisms retards the growth of many strains of dangerous microbes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagina#Sexual_health_and_hygiene

I think people should receive medical treatment based on what they believe. If someone believes that viruses and bacteria can evolve resistance to treatments, they should be treated accordingly. If someone doesn't believe that microorganisms can evolve resistance to drugs, they should be given some posey, a jar of leeches, and sent on their way.

Survival of the fittest - save the vancomycin for people who aren't going to pass rampant stupidity on to the next generation. Natural selection will let MRSA and other germs that have evolved resistance take care of the rest.

Let me say this one more time - viruses and bacteria EVOLVED into forms that are resistant to antibiotics and antivirals. Tuberculosis, staphylococcus, HIV, influenza... they have all EVOLVED resistance. By going through the process of EVOLUTION they have gained adaptations that make them more virulent and more dangerous.

Not sure how many more times I'll have to say EVOLUTION and the varying forms of the word to drive the point home.

People can believe whatever the hell they want to believe, but if they intend to be passionate about it and make a shitstorm about it that pisses everyone else off, they should at least practice what they believe. By rejecting evolution, one is essentially saying that they reject the PROVEN FACT that drug resistant strains of TB, staphylococcus, influenza, HIV, and other suberbugs exist. Why waste the effective drugs on people who don't even believe the disease they have exists?

Nice tags
Also, even if peanut butter somehow managed to generate life, it would be some microorganism that nobody would notice, and it would just get eaten. Even if *every* jar of peanut butter ever produced managed to produce some new microorganism, it's very likely that nobody would ever notice. Nobody looks at EVERY mililiter of peanut butter in a jar under a microscope.