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Hi A10ANIS,

Could you please address the heart of my argument, that the principle of parsimony (occams razor) states that we should consider the theory of a Creator over the multiverse theory? Thanks.

To address some of your points:

Regarding your "fine tuner" argument; Such is the fine tuning of your "creator" that 98% of all life that has existed, is extinct. Which, apart from being incredibly incompetent and wasteful, points logically to random
selection/evolution.

It also points to a global flood which wiped out nearly all life on Earth around 4400 years ago. The speciation which occurred up until that time was lost, but new species have been created since then. The mass extinctions going on today have everything to do with human development and bad stewardship rather than any design flaw.

Also, your "a painting therefore a painter" point is a non-sequitur for if there were a "fine tuner," there would, by your own argument, have to be a creator of the fine tuner and so an inevitable regression.

We as Christians do not believe in created gods which are a delusion by definition; we believe in an eternal God who was not created. The infinite regression stops at the feet of the eternal God who has always existed. This line of reasoning is a problem not for Christians but for those who believe in the multiverse theory, because whatever the mechanism is which generates all of these Universes would be yet another Goldilocks zone, and so precisely finetuned as to be statistically impossible. You may as well posit a Creator at that point. I mean just ask yourself the same questions; what created the multiverse, what created it, etc.

No, Science has thrown off the shackles of myths and gods. Had they not, our lives would be controlled by theocratic dictators and we would still believe earth was the centre of the universe.

Interesting you would say this considering that in its infancy, pretty much all of the important discoveries were made by professing Christians. It was actually the environment of Christian Europe which nurtured science into what it is today.

Another point is, Christians don't believe in myths; Jesus Christ is not a myth, He is a real person who died for our sins and rose from the dead. He told us about who God is, because He was with God and He is God.

We no longer use the god of the gaps argument. We may never know all the answers but, just because we don't, we no longer lazily, ignorantly, insist that; "Hallelujah, God must have done it."

It is not a God of the gaps argument when the theory has greater explanatory power than what is being proposed. When even apparent fine tuning as been observed, which it has, the principle of parsimony would prefer the theory of a Creator to multiple unobserved universes.

Actually, the number of Planets discovered currently stands at over 700 (and counting) Also, they have identified some which are in fact, like ours, in the "comfort zone." Sadly the closest found so far is 21 light years away which, at approx. 147 trillion miles, is at the moment rather a problem.
Regarding your "fine tuner" argument; Such is the fine tuning of your "creator" that 98% of all life that has existed, is extinct. Which, apart from being incredibly incompetent and wasteful, points logically to random
selection/evolution. Also, your "a painting therefore a painter" point is a non-sequitur for if there were a "fine tuner," there would, by your own argument, have to be a creator of the fine tuner and so an inevitable regression. No, Science has thrown off the shackles of myths and gods. Had they not, our lives would be controlled by theocratic dictators and we would still believe earth was the centre of the universe. We no longer use the god of the gaps argument. We may never know all the answers but, just because we don't, we no longer lazily, ignorantly, insist that; "Hallelujah, God must have done it."

There is some truth in what you've said. For one, the bible says that Christians are the light of the world. Our number one responsibility is not to change the culture, but to allow God to change us so that His light, the light of Jesus Christ will shine forth from our lives and touch those around us. It is the church who retreated from the culture in the preceding decades which has allowed these forces that shape our culture today to slowly encroach on it, and eventually take over. The influence of the church on the culture is minimal because Christians have not been shining their light. Instead, it has largely taken an adversarial position and been engaged in a protracted "culture war". The real business of the kingdom of God is not shaping our culture through legislation, but by showing agape love to all those who cross our path. Jesus said that our unity and love towards one another is the evidence that He was sent by the Father:

Joh 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Likewise, our lack of love and infighting is evidence to the world that the Father did not send Jesus. Unfortunately, those who are really living for Christ do not stand out as much as those who are not. Before I knew the Lord, I didn't have any positive examples of Christians in my life. I wasn't born into religion and didn't have much exposure to the church aside from what I saw on television. Now that I have seen what is going from the inside I can say that the vast majority of the positive things that Christians do is not reported on. In my town, the churches are all working together to serve the community, despite their differences. Many have been blessed and many lives have been transformed in wonderful ways, but you'll never hear about it unless it comes by word of mouth.

So, when you say Jesus hung out with sinners, this is essentially what the church should be doing, which is not to go a building every week and shout hallelujah, but to get out there and serve your community. To form relationships with people and to meet them where they are at and what their needs may be. Yet, you couldn't really say that Jesus "hung out" with sinners. Certainly He visited with sinners and ate meals with them, because He loved them. This really bothered the pharisees who asked Jesus one day why He did that. This is what He said:

Luke 5:30 And the Pharisees and their scribes grumbled at his disciples, saying, "Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?"
Luke 5:31 And Jesus answered them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

Jesus hung out with sinners because He loved them, and because He loved them He was calling them to repentance. Jesus did teach about hell and the fear of God, in fact Jesus said more about hell than every person in the bible combined. Most of what we know about hell was spoken by the Lord. It is the reality of hell that led Jesus to the cross:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Jesus did not come to condemn, but save. He shed His innocent blood for our crimes, so that we can be forgiven and have eternal life. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ, the good news for all who are held in the bondage of sin and facing eternal separation from God.

Your video, Street artist playing Hallelujah with crystal glasses, has made it into the Top 15 New Videos listing. Congratulations on your achievement. For your contribution you have been awarded 1 Power Point.

This achievement has earned you your "Pop Star" Level 156 Badge!

Tags for this video have been changed from 'hallelujah, glass harp, crystal, glass, glasses, street artist, play' to 'Cohen, hallelujah, glass harp, crystal, glass, glasses, street artist, play' - edited by chingalera

Hallelujah! It's my upturned, button nose. That thing would even make Stalin adorable.

Hallelujah!

In reply to this comment by ChaosEngine:
>> ^lantern53:

How is R-money unelectable?
We elected a man with a muslim name, a socialist background, from an anti-semitic racist church who spent his last two years of highschool in a drug-induced haze, then hung out with unrepentant terrorists and visited 57 states, then selected a brainiac Joe Biden to be his running mate?


You know, it's times like this when mere words won't do. What's needed here.... is a southern gospel choir.

Wait a minute! What's this? Can I get an "oh yeah"!?

OOOOOHHHHHHH..... YEEEAAAAAAH

Thank you. Let us begin.

<southern gospel voice>
Ladies and gentlemen! We have before us such a man, nay, a child calling himself a man, that gives the word "retard" new meaning.

congregation: Tell it, preacher!

This so-called man has the audacity, the temerity, the something-else-ending-in-ity to speak such utter bullshit, that Glen Beck himself looks upon him and weeps for his idiocy.

congregation: Hallelujah!

Brothers and sisters! There is but one response that his inanity is worthy of.
There is but one riposte that is befitting such a childish, uneducated, dumb-ass train of what simple folk might mistake for thought.

I leave it now for the choir to preach the good words.

GOOOOOOOOO..... FUUUUUUUUUUCK.... YOOOOOOO'SEEEEELF!!
Let me hear it now...

Go fuck yourself! (yeah!)
Go fuck yourself! (Sing it loud!)
Go fuck yourself! (you moron!)
Yeaahhhh ,go fuck yourself!!! (one more time)

GOOOOOOOOO..... FUUUUUUUUUUCK.... YOOOOOOO'SEEEEELF!!



i love you

>> ^lantern53:

How is R-money unelectable?
We elected a man with a muslim name, a socialist background, from an anti-semitic racist church who spent his last two years of highschool in a drug-induced haze, then hung out with unrepentant terrorists and visited 57 states, then selected a brainiac Joe Biden to be his running mate?


You know, it's times like this when mere words won't do. What's needed here.... is a southern gospel choir.

Wait a minute! What's this? Can I get an "oh yeah"!?

OOOOOHHHHHHH..... YEEEAAAAAAH

Thank you. Let us begin.

<southern gospel voice>
Ladies and gentlemen! We have before us such a man, nay, a child calling himself a man, that gives the word "retard" new meaning.

congregation: Tell it, preacher!

This so-called man has the audacity, the temerity, the something-else-ending-in-ity to speak such utter bullshit, that Glen Beck himself looks upon him and weeps for his idiocy.

congregation: Hallelujah!

Brothers and sisters! There is but one response that his inanity is worthy of.
There is but one riposte that is befitting such a childish, uneducated, dumb-ass train of what simple folk might mistake for thought.

I leave it now for the choir to preach the good words.

GOOOOOOOOO..... FUUUUUUUUUUCK.... YOOOOOOO'SEEEEELF!!
Let me hear it now...

Go fuck yourself! (yeah!)
Go fuck yourself! (Sing it loud!)
Go fuck yourself! (you moron!)
Yeaahhhh ,go fuck yourself!!! (one more time)

GOOOOOOOOO..... FUUUUUUUUUUCK.... YOOOOOOO'SEEEEELF!!

I guess it's not quite related, but a friend of mine blasts the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's Messiah over the house intercom at 7am in the morning every Sunday to wake his family up. By the time it's done, everyone is down for breakfast.

@Fletch here is a special comment for you, but more specifically as Jesus would say it:

Fuck yeah, hallelujah, praise... ME. @Fletch my son you fucking rule, I'm SO fucking tired of this nonsensical talking bullshit. They, literally in ten minutes, put out more vomitous of shit than I spoke parables, metaphors, truth, and wisdom in a lifetime! It's fucking ridiculous! Just use the back door when you come up, use the secret password: "Kolob."! I love that password almost everyone gets it wrong, it's fantastic. Anyway, you got it!?

Alright got to go my fucking cell phone is going off at fucking 7:00 A.M.! I hate this spam shit they will all rot in a layer of hell full of bugs that just won't leave them the fuck alone. Not forever, just till they fucking GET IT!

Amen. Hallelujah.
>> ^Fletch:

>> ^shinyblurry:
>> ^Fletch:
Jesus, maybe you should talk to your dad. You've been out of the loop for a while.

I think its against the rules to downvote comments you haven't read. Am I wrong?

Who says I don't read them? I'm always up for a laugh.
That said, I haven't seen a single comment you've ever made that wasn't SPAM. As a charter, I don't want to see ads, and I long ago tired of your incessant, blathering sales pitch. Quite frankly, someone as condescending, self-righteous, arrogant, ignorant, and obnoxious as yourself is not going to win any converts, and I think you know that. Which means your continued infection of VS must be ego-driven, a false sense that you are doing "good" in your tiny little universe. Then again, the ability to lie to oneself is fundamental to buying into the whole magic-man-in-the-sky thing, so maybe you can't/refuse to understand how most of us perceive you.
When I was a child, I remember running upstairs one Christmas morning and telling my parents that I not only saw Santa last night, but I TALKED to him as well. I related our entire conversation of cookies and reindeer, how I helped him carry the 4-man toboggan that now leaned against the fireplace, and how he gave our dog, Missy, a Milk-bone. I knew I was lying, but who would ever suspect? Santa is real, right? And he's magic. Everyone knows that. I wasn't lying about Santa. He was real to me, as he must be real to everyone. Just a small fib about our interaction that no mere muggle could challenge. I was a star. I TALKED to Santa! Company would come over, and my parents would have me relate my tale to them. They ate it up.
To me, you are the me who saw Santa, a pathetic nincompoop who feels solace in the fact that science can't prove a negative (it doesn't work that way), AND you're trying to sell me microwave popcorn and beefsticks, AND you won't quit ringing my doorbell.

Hallelujah! She can walk.