No matter how bad the temporary pains seem, putting off the inevitable will only make the pains worse when the collapse comes. And it will come. Putting off the recession is what made the Great Depression so Great.

Somehow I don't mind so much, the government helping out the auto industry BECAUSE there are strings attached. But to allow the banks to continue to be irresponsible and unaccountable, without consequences, as they surely will be, who is to think that their behavior will really change?

Maddow's explanations make clear the discrimination that differs in between the financial class and the working class: If you are poor, and you screw up and lose all your money, you are left homeless. If you are rich, and you screw up and you lose all your money, you get free money with no strings attached.. Is that even a slap on the wrist?? Even Greenspan has pointed out that these organizations are irresponsible and unaccountable.

If a bad loan was administered, shouldn't those who granted the bad loan somehow be accountable for it? The people who end up homeless are not the bank execs who make what, thousands of bad loans, again and again? How is this fair? Where is the accountability of the institutions?

* I am beginning to increasingly believe that FIGHT CLUB GOT IT RIgHT back in 1999!

It's not a "bail out". (jesus christ)

It's a fucking loan, that is to be paid back, with interest.

But, by calling it a "bail out" you can go all Ron Paul on us, and mislead or lie. I assume you're smart enough to know this isn't just free money thrown at the auto industry (unlike the financial services sector). So, if you're smart enough to understand that, yet still never refer to it as a "loan" then I will assuming you're trying to mislead.

sad

AS funny as this is, it's complete bullshit.

This is no different than someone making a completely useless invention (see: treadmill on wheels) and when they lose their life savings because no one wants it, they get free money from the government.

Who said that other countries are doing fine? Last I heard Europe is having quite a few problems of their own.

The US automakers are a victim of poor management. I remember in a management class the professor was talking about the difference between the US companies vs other car-makers and he basically predicted exactly what is happening now. Honda and Toyota (among others) decentralized their management structure long ago, yet in the big three most decisions still have to go all the way up the chain of command. That is simply a poor way to adapt in a rapidly changing market, and that is one major reason why they are still putting their money into vehicles that people don't want.

Will injecting money into the companies make them profitable? Will they suddenly start making cars that people want? At what point do you stop delaying the inevitable with free money (it's only a loan if they can pay it back) and let a competent company fill the void?

Once again, this exploitation of disaster for corporate gain--free money for the CEOs--gives Bush the excuse he needs to use the bailout of the automakers as collateral to get the Dems. to ratify a free trade deal with Colombia... brokered by none other than our very own Rahm Emmanuel.

Just when you thought democracy couldn't get decimated any further.. or that the cynicism couldn't rise any higher... yet so typical of the way Washington seems to work, the place where all the wealthy line up at the trough to feed on the taxpayers' expense.

[Talking]
Holden Street
Dean Street
click clack, Presidents
Nostrand Ave
DP's, Orange Ave
RBG's, T-Town
Who Wanna Ride, Brooklyn
Come on, Come on

[Rapping]
Sittin' in the living room on the flo' hunger pain
got me on some migraine shit but I'ma maintain
Nigga got two or three dollars to my name
and my homies in the same boat goin' through the same thing
ready for a caper, steady plottin' for the paper
we been livin' in the dark since April
on the candle, gotta get a handle
my homie got a 25 automatic added to the gamble
nigga get the phone book look up in the yellow page
lemme tell you how we fiendin ta get paid
we gon' order take out, when we see the driver
we gon' stick the 25 up in his face, let's ride
steppin' outside like warriors into the notorious southside
one weapon to the four of us, hidin' in the corridor
til' we see the dominoes car headlights
white boy in the wrong place at the right time
soon as the car door open up he mine
we roll up quick and put the pistol to his nose
by the look on his face he probly shitted in his clothes
you know what this is a stick up
gimme the dough, from the pick up
you ran into the wrong niggas
we runnin down the block hot with these stack of boxes boxes
so we split up and met back at the apartment

Hell Yeah
yo ain't you hungry my nigga
hell yeah
you wanna get paid my nigga
hell yeah
ain't you tired of starvin' my nigga
hell yeah, (well lets ride then) hell yeah

I know a way we can get paid
you can get down but you can't be afraid
let's go to the DMV and get a ID
the name says you but the face is me
now it's yo' turn take my paperwork
like 1,2,3 let's make it work
then fill out out the credit card application
then it's gonna be about three weeks of waitin'
for American Express, Discover card
Platinum Visa Mastercard
cuz when we was boothed and shit then we was targets
now we just walk right up and say charge it
to the game we rockin' brand names
well known at department store chains
even got the boys in the crew a few thangs
Po Po never know who to true blame
store after store ya' know we kept rollin'
wait two weeks report the card stolen
repeat the cycle like a laundrymat
like a glitch in the system thats hard to catch
comin' out the mall, with the shopping bags
we can take 'em right back and get the cash
yeah, get a friend and do it again
damn right that's how we pay the rent

Hell yeah

Got to get this paper
I'm down for the caper, we steady on the grind
It's a daily struggle
We all gotta hustle, this is the way we survive
[x2]

I know a caper
we can get some government paper
ya' know food stamps, can we really do that
hell yeah right there for the takin'
fuck welfare we say reparations
Ya' know the grind
get up early get on the line and just wait
everybody on break
that's part of the game and when they call your name
Miss caseworker lemme state my claim
I'm homeless, jobless, time is hard
about hopeless, but I gotta eat regardless
no family to run to I'm 22
now tell me what the fuck am I supposed to do
my sad story made her feel close to me
I made her feel like it was in emergency
and when I came to the crib niggas couldn't believe
I came back with a big bag of groceries

Every job I ever had I had to get
on the first day I find out how to pimp the system
two steps ahead of the manager
gettin' over on the regular tax-free money out the register
and when I'm workin' late night stockin boxes
I'm creepin' their merchandises
Don't put me on dishes I'm droppin' them bitches
and takin' all day long to mop the kitchen
shit, we ain't gettin paid commission, minimum wage
modern day slave conditions
got me flippin' burgers with no power
can't even buy one off what I make in an hour
I'm not one to kiss ass for the top position
I take mine off the top like a politician
where I'm from doin' dirt is a part of livin'
I got mouths to feed dog I gotsa' get it

Hell Yeah
You down to roll my nigga
Hell Yeah
You ready to get your hands dirty my nigga
Hell Yeah
Your momma need money and thangs my nigga
Hell Yeah, Well let's ride then, Hell Yeah

If you claimin' gangsta
Then bang on the system, and show that you ready to ride
Til' we get our freedom
We got to get over, we steady on the grind
[x2]

Why do you think bad parents are such a boon to their children?

When you have a broken social paradigm, you don't just keep plugging its holes with money, you try to fix the root of the problem. Wall Street bailouts and Free Money for Morons socialised education are symptoms of the same disease.

>> ^spoco2
I'm not in a position to really state whether any of that is true, but if it is, and the Republicans have been in power for the last 8 years... then surely it'd be stupid to vote in more of the same leadership?
No? And if you're going to try to suggest that all the problems are because of a democrat being in office in the 1930s... please, respectfully... f ck off.
If your chosen part has been in power for the past 8 years and has done nothing but help your country sink into its own financial abyss, then have the bloody balls to accept that, don't pull some shit about someone 70 years ago causing the trouble now.
That's some serious blinker you have on there.


Though it sounds like quantum doesn't really understand what he's parroting, to those learned libertarians in world who understand the problem, he's actually kind of right and it's not as ridiculous as it sounds. It's entirely a matter of socialist big government policies that have been building over a long period of time, just waiting for someone highly corrupt to abuse them. Are you aware of the benevolent dictator argument? The idea that just because it's possible to have a benevolent dictatorship for a certain period of time, the costs of that system ultimately catch up to it because as long as those highly centralized powers EXIST, they WILL be abused by an eventual regime change and destroy the country. This is why we embrace constitutional limits on government and a system of inefficiency in which it is (supposed to be) extremely difficult for any political group to do this. Those limits started to get ignored at the turn of the 20th century and are almost all violated in some fashion today. It doesn't matter how convinced you are that your candidate is telling you the truth, some powers shouldn't exist. The system should not come down to who can pick the best dictator, and then being left with the consolation of "I told you so" when the people finally screw up and elect the wrong guy. Because there are actually two ways to do harm: through stupidity or through deceit. It's perfectly possible to be a well-intentioned, charismatic guy that is just plain wrong or ignorant how to best solve a problem. It's also possible for someone to promise to do one thing to get elected, and do the opposite once elected. People on this forum are educated enough to see #2. They're not seeing #1.

Bush is a highly corrupt individual, no question about it. But to restrict the debate to a choice between liberalism and neo-conservatism is to restrict the debate to socialism, because that's exactly what both of them are with minor differences. This population needs to understand libertarian principles, and fast. Because make no mistake, these socialist enablements and crises and scandals have plagued politics in general over the years and it was bound to come to a head sooner or later. We are in the late stages of socialism, there is nothing "regulatory" that can be done about something that is inherently fraudulent or corruptible. You simply have to understand that markets are merely individuals making mutually agreeable transactions with one another. Government's main functions are very simple, it is to make sure rights are not infringed with police/fire/national defense, and to provide a system of courts for recourse and the settlement of disputes. It is not to have its hands in every part of the market to regulate "greed," this is a nonsensical statement that assumes politicians with privileged power to forcibly appropriate money are not themselves greedy. This is the kind of idealist thinking that enables lobbying, corporatism, etc, and it's stunning that people haven't figured this out yet. The only way a person or a company can turn a profit, without infringing on people's rights, and without colluding with government-specific powers that they do not have (see:below), is to create a product/service that people will want to improve their lives with. That's it. It doesn't matter that the primary goal in a business venture is to make money in a truly free market, because the only way to make money in that system and keep it is to meet the demands of someone else. The EFFECT is that both parties benefit, even though the goals are both driven by self-interest. People are also very generous and are more apt to give excesses to charity under this system, charity was at its highest in America in the late 19th century. Because we didn't have inflation and we didn't have an income tax. Here is a short list of things that have brought us here and Ron Paul was the only one talking about any of them.

1. Centralized price fixing of interest rates by the Federal Reserve System: sends the wrong signals to investors to prevent politically inconvenient recessions, incentivizing massive misallocations of capital investment. Enables catastrophic insolvency, market scapegoating and further socialist interventions. This is THE root cause of the two market bubbles which are now collapsing, as well as the bubble that formed in the 20s and crashed in 29. This one spanned both Clinton and Bush presidencies, started with the easy money policies of the 90s that led to the tech stocks collapsing, then the inflation was filtered into real estate by Greenspan's 1% artificially low interest rates in 2000 (he also egged on the market for years, completely oblivious to what he was doing), and finally the inflation is coming home to roost in basic commodities. Borrowers are walking away and banks that invested heavily in the housing mania with are now left with mortgages that are nowhere near worth the price that they could actually sell the home. The housing market mania was so intense that people were buying homes to flip them to other people who were buying homes to flip them, until eventually, all that was left was speculative sellers with no one buying to LIVE in them other than idiots with bad credit who bought with no down payments.
2. An unconstitutional, non-market determined money: easily manufactured at no labor or material cost by the banking industry that controls it, transferring purchasing power from those who have to work for them to the recipients of this free money in wall street and in the government without asking the working man. Morally reprehensible and enables bailout legislation to deal with the insolvency that #1 causes.
3. Fractional Reserve Banking: government enables the banking industry to fraudelently loan out credit many times what it actually has in reserves and earn interest off of it. The effect cascades as a result of successive deposits of this phantom credit between banks and enables bank runs and extremely unstable leverage, creating an environment that all but necessitates an FDIC and central bank to be lender of last resort in the event of a run, which of course leads to the creation of #1.
3. Heavy subsidization: enables corporate lobbying for government handouts of forcibly appropriated money as an anti-competitive advantage
4. Income-taxation, a direct tax on production, very difficult to enforce without intimidation tactics, enables special tax credits as an anti-competitive advantage
5. Anti-competitive regulation: who's regulating the regulator? Idealist FDA powers to ban products from being chosen on the market have led to anti-competitive bans such as Stevia, resulting in health repercussions unbecoming of an agency that is supposed to protect it. Special legislation such as NAFTA, a 100-page "free-trade" agreement acting as a pretense to lower tariffs to get the WTO to raise tariffs
6. Nationalization of industry: enables predatory anti-competitive takeovers for the largest institutions of smaller institutions, enables government monopoly in industry financed by forcibly appropriated money.
7. Medicare, SS: Unsustainable, government run ponzi schemes purporting to be welfare measures. New investors paying old investors in real time, continually increasing tax rates to prolong solvency, continually changing rules about retirement age to prolong solvency. Trust fund anually tapped by congress to spend the excess by replacing them with government promises of future dollars (bonds). CPI-adjusted payouts, allowing government to underpay by understating real inflation.

And after listing all of this shit, it should be obvious to see why I'm so incensed by simple little quips like charliem's that get rated up: "unethical" loans. You want to talk about ethical lending? You think the government doing the things above under either party gives one bloody shit about ethics? Lending money is a gamble, it's a gamble you implictly allowed that bank to take by giving them your money to gamble with. Banks aren't a free storing house for money, they immediately take the money you give them and loan most of it out to someone else at interest, that's how they pay YOU interest for keeping it on their books when you could otherwise put your savings in a lockbox for a fee. But seeing as how people are cheap, ignorant bastards that have no idea how fraudulent the current system is, they will continue to ask politicians to coo-coo them with "ethics reform" and other nonsense that do nothing to solve the fundamental problems.

And let me make this dirt simple if I haven't already: you can't "regulate" or "oversee" these activities any more than you can "regulate" or "oversee" murder. It is fundamentally fraudulent to loan out something you don't have, price fixing of interest rates creates shortages of capital when people otherwise would save it, and an easily inflatable currency is nothing more than legalized counterfeiting for government and anyone who colludes with them. Wake up already.

>> ^charliem:
Go back to paper ballots you fucking retards.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. The problem is not electronic voting, it's the implementation.

When the army wants a whistle, they submit a 12 page spec with technical drawings, and specifications on materials used etc, if the manufacturer fails to deliver exactly what is in the spec they are in breach of contract with the government and will never get another contract again.

When the gov hands out "kinda like this" corporate welfare funding like they did to diebold, then you get this kind of crap. The government knows how to get what they want at a good price, that was just not the point of the "help america vote act".

Let me be blunt. I could set up a sourceforge project to develop the software/hardware spec for an e-voting system, using existing free software, I could get help from volunteers, and we could have a secure, working system in a couple of months.

In fact anybody worth their salt at programming/crypto could have a proof of concept mocked up in python, or bash shell script by tomorrow.

These people failed for one of three reasons:

1) they are flagrantly incompetent. (their ATM products suggest otherwise)
2) they didn't even try. (seems plausible, just take free money and run)
3) they intentionally made the system weak to allow fraud. (unfortunately also plausible)

I had a stranger come up to me once in the inner city. He started trying to establish a report, telling me where he worked, and showing me his I.D. I let him go on for about 30 seconds before I told him I didn't have any money for him (I had just given my change away not five minutes before to someone else). He got all pissed off, claiming that I stereo typed him. He claimed he was just asking for directions to the nearest gas station. I told him that I was sorry I misunderstood him, and that "everyone who comes up to me in the city and tries to be my friend ends up asking for money." (It's happened about two dozen times this year alone.) He said, "...everONE?!" as though he wanted me desperately to say every "black guy" so that -I- would fit into -his- stereo type... He was an African American, I am some kind of German/English/Irish mutt (aka 'white'). I told him that I could certainly direct him to the nearest gas station and he said, "Forget it man!"

He was full of complete B.S. No reasonable person would try to make best friends with a complete stranger before asking them for freaking DIRECTIONS to a GAS STATION. He was a racist who wanted free money.

^That would seem to be a pretty good solution. Though at the moment I don't know shit about Obama's health care system.
And I'm by no means a xenophobe. I just don't like it when my money pays someone else's benefits or salary -welfare for able bodied people and such. I realize that some people honestly can't make ends meet, hence subsidized housing and such, but anyone has to admit there are people that leech off the system.
Shit, just last Christmas Eve I saw a man buy a fucking shrimp platter with food stamps. Last time I checked, shrimp was a luxury food. One that even I can't afford willy-nilly. And I work damn hard for my food money. There's no fucking reason that someone that has government-provided money for food should be able to use it to buy luxury items that others that don't get free money can't afford.

>> ^Sarzy:
Name some. I'm being serious. Post a link to a few videos which used the requeue, which you think are crappy and don't belong on the sift.

That's a fair challenge. But I'm too lazy. More to the point, I'll concede that the requeue invocation didn't have as much to do with the less than worthy videos (as I see them) getting published as other factors.

I know I could easily list dozens of great videos which had to be requeued.

I'm sure you could, but I would disagree with the notion that they had to be requeued to get published. They could just as easily have been saved or promoted or reposted in most cases. Yes, some great videos slip through the cracks, but that's not a problem with invocations. I'd argue it's a problem with how most folks use the site and with a time-based expiration from the queue. Kronos has repeatedly made attempts to get people to look through the queue more often, as have I, in particular by using the "hide videos I've viewed" filter. Unfortunately, that filter isn't working perfectly, and viewed vids reappear after a day or two. Fix that, get people to use it, and I'd be willing to bet those cracks would close up quite a bit. Another idea I've championed is to remove the time limit on the queue entirely and replace it with a view limit. In other words, a video would only expire after, say, 15 people viewed and didn't vote for it (or downvoted it).

And I'd be willing to bet that some of your videos would be on that list, unless you've never requeued anything, which I highly doubt.

Of course I used it. If someone gives you free money, would you refuse it? I'm as susceptible to attachment (to my vids) and rank watching as anyone. But it's not the reason I'm here. And I don't think it's the reason most people are here, rottenseed's silly comment notwithstanding.

That statement is what doesn't give enough credit to the community. It assumes that folks are more worried about their "rank" and how many votes they can catch rather than the quality of the videos they share.
It's not about worrying about rank, or votes, it's about not wanting to waste slots/time on a video which probably won't make it.

I'm confused by the notion that posting a video is ever a waste. Even if it doesn't get published, you've done your part, you've shared it with the community. After that, it's up to the community to respond. Being able to requeue just gives the community more time to respond. But I think we can accomplish the same goal in better ways.

And there are a lot of good videos which are now much harder to get posted.

A voting and ranking system like this will never be perfect. I know you're not suggesting requeue will make it so, but I'm arguing that there are better ways to improve the site. Ones which will not only improve the chances of certain vids to get published, but provide an overall better user experience. Basically, it's a tradeoff situation, and I think the requeue invocation doesn't provide enough benefit to justify itself. Many of the vids you write about required several requeues, so I doubt allowing 1 or 2 requeus will help those much.

Maybe I'm a little crazy, but I think if cults like this aren't stopped completely, very early they will persist forever. Look at all the negative press Scientology has received over the decades, yet they still continue on, and are obviously much more powerful than before.

What is most bothering to me about Scientology is that up until this point, they have very successfully blinded the majority of people to the utter batshit insanity of their beliefs and actions. That kind of control over the media representing something so large is very, very subversive. Ask yourself, did you even think about Scientology before the Tom Cruise video was leaked? (Excusing the minor random bouts of 'crazy time' he experiences)

If your answer was no, think of how much TAX FREE money Scientology have made at the expense of brainwashed people. Think of all the families that have been broken up because of what this cult does to people.

Cults like this, and for example - Jehovah's Witnesses, work in much the same way. They both use reinforcement techniques, isolation from normal social life and routine.. a promise of eternal life/happiness/insert cool thing here and a strong social network + reindoctrination sessions to back it up is a pretty well refined playbook for brainwashing anyone who's down and out or just looking for answers somewhere.

^THAT is the point right there.
why are people so scared about giving up dependence on armies of idiot civil servants bathing in free money?

famous anecdote... on a visit to London last century, a soviet official asked "who is responsible for the bread supply to london?" and couldn't believe that there was NOBODY responsible, and that supplies were so plentiful. think. about. it.

that's kinda the problem, they had no capitalism and then it was dumped on them, it looked shiny, and they swallow it hook line and sinker. Their eyelashes are now 46% fatter and getting a car loan is basically free money from heaven.
A few people are making shitloads of money from people's naivety.
They even drink freaking Carlsberg instead of their superior local beer, because it comes in a fancy new bottle and costs more


In reply to your comment:
“lol? entering EU didn't help?

In reply to your comment:
“well here you can literally buy articles in the paper, without "ADVERTISEMENT" written on the top. I mean literally buy, without having to be too devious about it.

Not much history of a free press here.

In reply to your comment:
“lithuania? everywhere!”””