Dose 2 from what my wife's nurse friend says causes minor to moderate flu like symptoms in some people. In most it seems to be no worse than the effects from getting the flu shot.

I can say that compared to full blown Covid, the first dose was a walk in the park. I would wager the second is still much easier than having it directly. I'll post on my profile once I see how it goes, second shot on the 29th.

Ouch. Flu shots were nothing to me. Just minor muscle pain. I wonder if we will suffer with our upcoming dose #2.

Yes, but my understanding is that the point isn't to starve the virus for hosts until it's dead, it's to slow the spread enough that hospitals aren't overrun. When they are, death rates explode, logically from 3-3.5% up to 15-20%. Of course, this plan relies on the hope that immunity is relatively full and permanent, something we don't know yet.

If people weren't morons, I would agree about parks and beaches....but they are. Even those smart enough to try and social distance in public often forget and hug goodbye, and most aren't being that smart.

The problem with sending people back is we don't have a single study on immunity. We don't know if you have full immunity after recovering from being infected, or if so how long it might last. Many other coronaviruses mutate enough that immunity is for one season at best. We need to study the virus in detail before making assumptions on life and death issues, and it's smart to err on one side of caution with stakes this high until we know. Opening up before we know is a pure gamble....the odds might be good, but the stakes are sky high.

In a near worst case scenario, it's possible that Covid19 is going to remain as dangerous as it is today for some time with reinfection possible, and that any future vaccines will need yearly changes and booster shots to be effective, like the flu shot but hopefully more effective. In that case, the best we can really do is be prepared for a constant flow of large numbers of patients and deaths. That's going to require a complete retooling and expansion of the medical system, but silver lining, it's hundreds of thousands of good paying jobs that robots can't do...yet.

TL:DW- but Pence is now claiming all the "don't worry, everything's fine, it will just go away, it's not as bad as the average flu and flu shots are protection" talk from Trump was merely optimism....so hundreds of thousands - millions of Americans will die because Trump was optimistic, and based his administration's actions on his optimistic and ignorant pie in the sky high hopes, not the reality he was being told from all sides back in 2019.
Odd, when Clinton based her actions/inactions on an optimistic estimate of the safety of our embassy based on actual intelligence reports, 99% of Republicans wanted her in prison until her public execution because her decisions cost American lives.

Who's optimism cost more American lives? To date, it's Clinton 4-Trump 5500 (expected to rise to a minimum of 100000-250000 in the coming weeks). Trump's optimism is going to be more deadly to America than 9-11, the Iraq war, and the Afghanistan war combined...10-25 times more dead by the most optimistic predictions based on 100% compliance with social distancing and no surprises.
Trump's incompetence has now risen to the level of being the deadliest man in America ever by far. If he's a wartime president like he's labeled himself, these are war crimes. String him up, string him up, string him up......

It's cheaper and works better than private insurance right now. That's good enough for me.

Let me put it to you this way, I brought my 77 year old grandma and my 90 year old aunt in for a flu shot and a checkup.

My aunt has Blue Cross and a supplemental insurance plan through her retirement but does not use medicare. Cost to her out of pocket for the visit $40 co-pay.

My grandma uses medicare. Cost to her out of pocket for the visit $0. No co-pay, nothing. Didn't open her purse.

One of those plans cost $200 a month to maintain. Guess which.

You know Bob, even though I'm 100% certain in four years we'll be telling you "we told you so", I do wish and hope you'll be right. It's really the only chance we have.

I am Canadian, and like your other trading partners, when the US economy gets the sniffles, we get the flu.

I just reeeeeeealllly hope you get your flu shots, because if the US economy gets the flu...

The one thing I'll never agree with is forced immunization, where parents would have zero choice at the birth of their child or during "pandemics" like H1N1, where vaccines did cause issues and weren't as thoroughly tested or had unexpected side-effects (1). With that said, I have no problem with schools requiring an up-to-date immunization schedule or hospitals requiring doctors and nurses to be immunized, etc.

Vaccines are important and effective but there can be risks.

I'd like to see a study performed across a broad spectrum of children, following them from infancy to pre-teen years, to assess any potential non-obvious or long-term effects that vaccinations may have. Do more aggressive schedules and combinations of vaccinations have any impact on development over the long-term (e.g. impacts on the immune system, brain development, etc?) The current evidence suggests that it is unlikely, but I'm not sure there has ever been a comprehensive study performed specifically looking for potential issues over the long-term. With each new vaccine added to the schedule, I think this becomes even more important. For example, during the H1N1 outbreak, scientists discovered that people who were vaccinated with the seasonal flu shot were more likely to become infected by H1N1, with worse symptoms; follow up studies confirmed this. There is also evidence to suggest getting the yearly flu shot can make you more susceptible to getting the flu in following years. (2)

So while vaccines are very important and effective, it's still important to ask questions and be informed (through valid research); anyone that thinks otherwise is likely an idiot.

--------------------

(1) http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/h1n1_narcolepsy_pandemrix.html

(2) http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2013/03/study-getting-flu-shot-2-years-row-may-lower-protection

We're part of the problem because we believe that people should take precautions and avoid unnecessary risks? Make no mistake, it's awful that someone stole her pictures and distributed them on the web. She's definitely the victim here. Nobody is arguing otherwise. However, making angry videos chastising the people who perpetrated these crimes is a waste of time. They knew exactly what they were doing and most certainly don't feel any remorse. Explaining the psychological impact of leaked nude pictures isn't going to convert those people into saints.

There are a lot of assholes in the world who don't care about your feelings or your rights. You should take that into account with every choice you make, such as taking nude pictures of yourself and sharing them with others on the internet. People take precautions all the time. You lock your doors, you look both ways before crossing the street, you don't carry too much cash at any given time, you stay out of dark alleys, you wear warm clothing in cold weather, you cover the seats of public toilets before using them, you wash your hands after using toilets, you get flu shots, etc. Using the internet should be treated no differently. Teaching people that sobering fact is going to be way more productive than trying to turn assholes into good people.

Misconception #8, regarding efficacy of the flu shot, is not so cut and dry:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/flu-vaccine-paradox-adds-to-public-health-debate-1.2912790

The flu vaccine may also not be as effective for the elderly:
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=486407

I have nothing against vaccinations for the more serious illnesses like polio, etc - these vaccinations are effective and important. I'm just not so quick to buy into the flu-shot.

Flu-shots, more like pussy detectors.

Your video, Why you should get a flu shot, has made it into the Top 15 New Videos listing. Congratulations on your achievement. For your contribution you have been awarded 1 Power Point.

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I think as a former Creationist (old earth creationist, the idiocy of young earth creationist stunned me, for the Earth to be 6,000-10,000 years old would require God purposely setup evidence to prove it wasn't that old, which some dismiss as "God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise") I can speak to the problem here is that Christian and right wing media reinforce certain key thoughts that keep a Christian from understanding or accepting even the basics of the theory. You can get them to understand evolution is why you need a new flu shot each year, or why pesticides stop working after a time, but they think that is a different type of evolution. The image painted in the mind of a creationist is that one day in the African plains an ape or monkey was having a baby, and rather than be an ape or monkey it was a human... and that somewhere nearby another ape/monkey had to have another human for them to mate and continue offspring... there is no understanding of the scale and time involved to get from A to Z... they think that the A to Z is the same as A to B and ignore B to Y in the evolutionary timeline. They also misuse the word evolution to apply to the big bang and abiogenesis ("see they use the biblical word Genesis too") as that is what is reinforced again and again. They are reinforced to misunderstand the word "theory" to think it is just a random guess... and make no mistake, the fact that the word theory doesn't mean a guess/idea and that evolution doesn't go from A to Z without going through B-Y first has been made clear to those who teach creationism, but they don't care, there is money to be made in deluding the church goers into holding onto the old ignorance, rather than embrace the truth... of course then you run the risk of some of them learning the truth and then going "I wonder what the hell else they lied to me about..." but most never will open their minds to the concept that even if God is real, perhaps the creation account and great flood are not literal events, but parables intended to teach a lesson...

>> ^snoozedoctor:

Sorry about your plight. Long term disability is a rare thing after recovery from influenza. You obviously ran into some bad luck and I hope that turns around for you. Actually, I don't think advocating personal responsibility is an interesting or unique position for a physician in the least. Promoting health and prevention of disease is part of our oath. With 1 out of 5 Americans still smoking and 1 out of 3 obese, we are clearly losing the battle. Sorry, but it's not my responsibility to hide the Twinkies, or the Camels and drag people to the gym. If citizens want better health outcomes from their health-care system, they should do their part. The quality of what comes out is only as good as what comes in.

>> ^kceaton1:
Yep I got hit with the same thing, the one-two punch. My side, it was sickness (swine flu, no joke), ending with long-term disability (plus surgery). That cost me my 40-50k job, but luckily I have parents that are helping me try to see through this. Otherwise, I would be a bankrupt statistic and most likely dead.
BTW, @snoozedoctor I understand your beef with "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR ONE'S OWN HEALTH", but that is a very interesting position to hold especially concerning what your oath has to say about that. I assume you're a professional in your field; perhaps you should take up that stance with doctors concerning those fields and see what you could flesh out other than: "throw'em under the bus".



Would you argue that regular check ups should be apart of your healthy life style? Perhaps a cholesterol check, yearly blood test for organ function and such?

My last blood work before insurance was over 300 dollars. Flu shot was 60 bucks at the doctor's office. Yes, people who don't insurance don't pay what they bill insurance at. Hell most of the time, the people providing these services don't know what they cost.

Now if a simple flu shot costs 60 bucks at the doctor's office, while Im there getting a check up no less. But costs 10 dollars at the drug store.......where's the disconnect?

As for exercising, Im frankly frightened that I might get hurt and it cost me more than a make in a year to get it fixed. Not to mention how long that recovery time would be and losing my job during that. At least doing stuff on the job and getting hurt means you have worker's compensation and you might be able to convince them to hold your job until you recover. But if you break your leg or pull loose a tendon while exercising you have only what you can afford to pay for. Which you don't know what it will cost until after they are done, insurance or not.

I suspect in other countries where healthcare is universal, people don't have to worry about this and they can push themselves a little. And it's in the countries best interest to make sure people exercise properly, stretch, don't over do it etc. So they probably take more care to make sure people are properly instructed on how to go about it and what they can do as they age to change up the routine and still get the needed results. You know, without having to be a professional athlete or hire a personal trainer. It's all too easy for family docs to recommend you to specialists for every last concern you have, plus they get a nice little referral kick back. It's a nice system the US has.......or not.


US workers work more hours than most countries, spend more time on the road commuting and generally have less time to live a health life as well. It's a useful thing to big businesses requiring those long hours that they provide your healthcare, because it'd be a shame if you lost your job due to not working the outrageous hours and lost that healthcare. If you untied health care from employment, people'd see how truly expensive it is and they'd be more inclined to have it reigned in and made universal. The premiums on health insurance alone would cover all of your general yearly checkups and tests and probably most of another person's for single people.

Trust me @spoco2, I read plenty of sources. And I judge the content accordingly. I don't make the mistake of confirmation bias like some people.

The "Thiomersal-free" vaccines still contain other mercury compounds. It's like the government trying to call GMOs organic.

And they are still using Thiomersal in flu shots. So it's not a non-issue, doesn't matter anyway--you're a government tool. As long as the government says it's safe, you'll gladly stick yourself intravenously with a toxin that attacks your brain. Hey, you weren't using it anyway right?