I meant to answer the 2nd part of your comment too... I have spent my entire life ignoring food fads For instance, I ate butter and cheese when it was considered madness to do so, and still do now that everyone else has caught up to the fact that margarine isn't really that much better (if at all, depending on type) and that a little cheese won't hurt either. I ate normal seasonal fruit (apples, oranges, strawberries etc.) when goji berries were all the rage, and still do now that people have pointed out that superfoods aren't really that different from normal ones

Perhaps I haven't totally ignored the fads, since I seem to recall some of them, but I have tried not to drastically change my diet in response to them.

One of my work colleagues bought in to a "liver cleansing" diet, and spent a whole week eating nothing but apples! I don't think that is a good idea at all, and I think that afterwards he pretty much agreed with me (and never wanted to see another apple).

Rise, Bugman, rise! Cleanse the world of its human pests! (Great supervillain origin story)

My faith in the American (republican) people from this point on will forever be tarnished beyond repair.
(last straw factor)

Those that are not Republicans, I sympathies with your malaise and lack of fight to expel this monolith of tyranny that strives to push the average man down and subjugate you for their own benefit. I urge you to rise up and fight that power that enslaves you, laughs at you and sucks you dry.

You are the only ones who can rise up against this virus of humanity that has taken hold. It's your rights, your country. If you want to be a patriot, then fight for your country. Fight from within and fight to cleanse your own system before looking outside your borders for a fight.

You owe it to yourselves - you own it to all of us.

Edit: Sorry to have ranted - the neurons fired and I just went with it.

>> ^jmzero:

I agree with Jack, Return of the King needed about a half hour cut off the end (or, alternatively, they needed to cleanse the shire).


TBF, more the fault of the books than the movies.

I agree with Jack, Return of the King needed about a half hour cut off the end (or, alternatively, they needed to cleanse the shire).

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Does coffee exacerbate ulcers? - maybe that's my problem. I need to stop using espresso for intimate cleansing in the shower. >> ^kymbos:

More seriously, I had a mouth ulcer the other week, and went off hot drinks and alcohol for over a week. It was hell. I had my first return coffee this morning, which may explain the above inane post.

"Tear my eyes out Father, or send Satan up for some cleansing!"

I'm not at all a scholar of the bible. I've read parts, I've been to
Sunday school before i was confirmed (age 14) and I have at times had
fun reading it.

Well, I would encourage you to try to understand it. Every conversation I've ever had with an atheist about the bible either brings up the same five things from the old testament or their doubts about who wrote the bible..and that's it. I've never actually spoken to an atheist, and I've spoken to many atheists, who even understood the basics. I think that if you're going to criticize something, you should at least try to understand it at a basic level..maybe that's just me. Although, the lack of understanding matches what the bible says, that the truth is spiritually discerned. Without the Holy Spirit, the atheist is going to find it fairly impossible to comprehend.

Arguing from authority is not a strong argument. Just because "the
intellectual scholarship" is much greater than I understand, doesn't
change what the book says. And since new evidence is not uncovered, it
is what it is, you are forced to "interpret new evidence" and that's
not the way the world works.

What you, and many others try to imply, is that what is the bible is simplistic, and for people without any intellectual standards. The truth is that what is in the bible is complex, and it takes a real intellect (supplanted with godly wisdom) to be able to understand it. The intellectual scholarship is vast because the bible is inexaustible. It functions as a cogent whole, and address all the deep questions that human beings have. It is not simple by any stretch of the imagination.

1) Personal evidence cannot be verified. What things were revealed to
you before you ever read or understood them? How were they revealed,
what was revealed, how did you later understand them / where did you
read them?

I would like to understand your thought process, which is why I ask.

Is it possible that you already had a forgone conclusion when you read
X, and therefore you interpreted X the way you wanted?

God had revealed to me through signs that He is a triune God, and that He has a Messiah, someone whose job it is to save the world. So when I finally read the bible, those signs are what initially confirmed it to be true. I didn't have any foregone conclusions about the bible before I read it. I had no actual idea what Christianity was all about.

What happened? How has your life improved, what did you do before,
what do you do now? How can you tell that it happened supernaturally?
Is there any difference from that to just having a profound change of
heart. If you are talking about addiction, it is possible to fill the
void of that addiction with other things - some people exchange
cigarettes with food, why not religion/faith? Does your faith take up
as much of your time as "the unhealthy things" you did before?

Before I became a Christian I was a theist, and before I was a theist I was an agnostic. When I became a theist my bad behavior didn't change. I was like Enoch, in that I believed that none of the religions were true, or that all of them just had pieces of who God is. I believed in a God that loved you the way you are and didn't particularly enforce any kind of behavior upon you, as long as your heart was in the right place. I would think that God, knowing me intimately, and knowing my good intentions, was very understanding if I did something which was out of line. Of course God is very patient with all of us, but the point is that I had plenty of faith in God at the time, and spent my time thinking about Him and pursuing the truth. The difference is that once I accepted Jesus into my heart as my Lord and Savior, everything changed.

It was only when I became a Christian that my behavior changed, and much of that practically overnight. When you're born again, you are spiritually cleansed and start out with a blank slate. You become like new. I had addictions, depression, anger, pain, sadness, and other issues that left me in short order. Some of those things I never thought I would give up, some of them I never wanted to give up, but I immediately lost the desire for them. It was a change of heart; God gave me a new one. It was supernatural because as I said, I didn't do any work. People spend their entire lives in therapy or counseling and spend tens of thousands of dollars or more to get rid of just some of these problems, and often don't see any results. I lost almost all of my baggage in just a few short months.

3) Not really. It only accounts for a visual interpretation of how men act. The writers of it has observed how people act and guessed at reasons why that is. Some are close to reality, some are way off. Which human behaviors does it predict? How and where does it describe in finite detail how those behaviors are created? I'm looking for actual citations here, because this is complete news to me.

It predicts all kinds of human behaviors by describing the mechanisms which motivate them to act. It shows the fundemental dichotomy of the heart of man. As an example:

James 3:3-10

When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.

With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

and

Matthew 12:34

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

and

Matthew 15:19-20

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

4) I disagree. It describes a point of view. The morality of the God of the bible is hardly any good morality. We have an ingrown moral compass, I can agree on that, it's been naturally selected against because it helped our ancestors to survive and procreate. "His moral law" is atrocious, if the bible is any indicator.

If everyone followed the morality that Jesus taught us, this planet would be as close to a utopia it could possibly get. He taught us to love one another, to forgive as a rule, to do good to even those who hate you, to help everyone in need, and to follow the moral law. Your idea of Gods morality being atrocious is plainly false. The passages that you feel are atrocious have an explanation, its just whether you want to hear them or not. As far as natural selection goes, all it cares about is passing on its genes. That is the only criteria for success. This doesn't explain noble behavior in the least, such as sacrificing your life for someone else. That's a bad way to pass on your genes.

5) Which prophecies have been fulfilled? You don't think Israel chose their currency based on the bible instead? Which captivities have been prophecied down to the year and where in the bible?

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/552/


6) This is hardly uncontested. There are parts of the bible that seem to be true, but because some of it is true, does not mean that all of it is. http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/982front.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history#Historical_accuracy_of_biblical_stories

It's positive evidence in the bibles favor when it is verified by archaelogical evidence. There are many things in the bible that historians denied were true in the bible, like the hittite civilization, until archaelogy proved the bible correct.

7) Citation needed. Saying that the universe has a beginning is hardly proof of anything. That's the easy way to say it, anyone apart from earlier theories said that, so of course they did it in there too. In actuality the bible claims that God is eternal, which there is no basis for.

These claims are just claims, there is no basis for saying them in the bible. Blood clotting could be found by trial and error back then, ocean currents can to a great extent be measured by fishermen even back then. Scientists who believed in an eternal universe have since changed their mind, when evidence discredited the theory. It's all about being able to back up your claims. the bible just claims.

This guy discovered and mapped the ocean currents, and he did so being inspired by psalm 8, which is the one that mentions the "paths of the seas"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Fontaine_Maury

Abraham didn't learn from trial and error. They were doing circumcisions on the 8th day from the beginning.

You must think something is eternal, unless you believe something came from nothing. So your problem isn't really with eternal things, just an eternal person.

Here is a list of them

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/scientific_facts_in_the_bible.html

8 ) How did you experience the holy spirit?

It's really impossible quite impossible to describe since it effects every level of your being at the same time, but experientially you could say it's like going from 110 to 220v. It's like you lived all your life being covered in filth and suddenly you're washed off and sparkling clean. It's like being remade into something brand new.

>> ^gwiz665

New Millenium Cyanide Christ

I'M A CARNAL, ORGANIC ANAGRAM. HUMAN FLESH INSTEAD OF WRITTEN LETTERS.
I REARRANGE MY PATHETIC TISSUE. I INCISE. I REPLACE. I'M REFORMED.
I ERADICATE THE FAKE PRE-PRESENT ME. ELEVATE ME TO A HIGHER HUMAN FORM.
THE CHARACTERS I AM, MADE INTO A WORD COMPLETE, THEN I'LL BE THE NEW NORM.

SELF INFLICTED FRACTURES. I REPLACE MY BONES WITH BARS;
ALUMINUM BLEEDING OXIDE; THE DRUG OF GODS INTO MY POUNDING VEINS

(A HUMAN PUZZLE FOR ALL TO SCORN. NO FACE. NO BACK. DIRECTIONLESS.
MY SCARRED EDITION I'LL DISPLAY; THE ORGANIC WORD FOR NOTHINGNESS)

MY RECEIVING EYES EXCHANGED WITH FUSES; BLINDNESS INDUCED TO PREVENT DESTRUCTION.
CERAMIC BLADES IMPLANTED PAST MY RIBS TO SAVE ME FROM THE DUES OF INHALATION.
I TEAR MY WORLDLY USELESS SKIN. STAPLES TO PIN IT OVER MY EARS.
NON-RECEPTIVE OF UNGODLY SOUNDS - I DISABLE THE AUDIO-GENERATORS OF FEAR.

HEXAGONAL BOLTS TO FILL MY MOUTH, SHARPENED TO DEPLETE THE CREATOR OF ALL VIOLENCE;
WITHOUT SPEECH THERE WILL BE NO DECEIT

(MY FEET I CRUSH. THE FLESH I CUT AWAY, SO AS TO NOT PRODUCE THE SOUND OF THEIR PRESENCE ON ROTTEN GROUND)

BAPTIZED IN VITRIOLIC ACID. A FINAL TOUCH. A SMOOTHING OF FEATURES.
COMPLETION OF THE GREATEST ART; TO CAST THE GODLY CREATURES.
HUMANS, ONCE ASTRAY; MADE DIVINE. STRIPPED OF CONGENITAL FLAWS.
WE'RE INCANDESCENT REVELATIONS IN A WORLD OF DARKENED FORMS.

(CONFIDE IN MY NEW AGE DOGMA. SWALLOW THE INDOCTRINATION. YOU'LL COME TO LOVE IT HERE,
THE SUICIDAL ATMOSPHERE. LET ME INTO YOUR COMMON MIND. I'LL PLANT MY THOUGHTS INTO ITS SOIL.
WALK AMONG US SELF-MADE GODS, DEIFIED THROUGH THE PAINS OF SELF TORTURE)

DISCIPLES, COME JOIN WITH ME TO SAVE A FAILED HUMANITY. FOLLOW THE GOD OF CYANIDE INTO THE NEW ETERNITY.
BEHOLD; A SACRIFICIAL RASE A CLEANSING WORSHIPPING OF PAIN.
THE NEW MILLENIUM CHRIST HERE TO REDEEM ALL FROM LIES

(I'VE COME TO SAVE YOU ALL. I'VE COME TO LIGHT YOUR WAY)

>> ^obscenesimian:

Yes yes. Kurds, hmmmmmm let me think
oh yes they were abused by turks throughout history but most notably during the the 1890's 1920's 1930's and on up to the 70's and 80's. Ironically, Kurds also were one of the primary agents used by the Turks in the deportations and massacre Armenians before and during world war 1.
Those Kurds.
Who were also abused by Saddam. All part of a long chain of ethnic cleansing, genocide and nationalist violence caused in a large part by religion and creed as well as tribal identity throughout the balkans and the ottoman empire and what became the palestinian mandate.
Which Hitchens thought we should wade into because science and atheism will put right through warfare that which religion and warfare could not put right.
Hitchens got so much so wrong so many times, but he sounded soooo good doing it.
>> ^bcglorf:
>> ^spoco2:
>> ^kceaton1:
Goodbye Chris. Some of his most profound moments for me came when he actually screwed up and was wrong! It would often lead to other talks and dialogs between the people he had erred against and himself and in some occasions Christopher would merely present them and allow the other person to put the matter straight. He could be friends with these people and often was.
It showed me that he had within himself the ability to be very humble and that to him the truth WAS paramount! For that and much more I will remember him always.
He had it within himself to be the best of us all.

His about face on waterboarding after being waterboarded was the point that I started paying attention to him.

His about face on Saddam era Iraq stood out more in my mind. After being a champion of the anti-war movement in the first Gulf war he went and spent time with the Iraqi Kurds. He came back vehement in his conviction that America's worst crime in Iraq was in essence listening to him in the first place and not pushing into Baghdad and removing Saddam the first time.



Or more simply, Saddam was so horrific and brutal a monster that Iraqis and the region as a whole are better off for his removal.

Yes yes. Kurds, hmmmmmm let me think

oh yes they were abused by turks throughout history but most notably during the the 1890's 1920's 1930's and on up to the 70's and 80's. Ironically, Kurds also were one of the primary agents used by the Turks in the deportations and massacre Armenians before and during world war 1.

Those Kurds.

Who were also abused by Saddam. All part of a long chain of ethnic cleansing, genocide and nationalist violence caused in a large part by religion and creed as well as tribal identity throughout the balkans and the ottoman empire and what became the palestinian mandate.

Which Hitchens thought we should wade into because science and atheism will put right through warfare that which religion and warfare could not put right.

Hitchens got so much so wrong so many times, but he sounded soooo good doing it.

>> ^bcglorf:

>> ^spoco2:
>> ^kceaton1:
Goodbye Chris. Some of his most profound moments for me came when he actually screwed up and was wrong! It would often lead to other talks and dialogs between the people he had erred against and himself and in some occasions Christopher would merely present them and allow the other person to put the matter straight. He could be friends with these people and often was.
It showed me that he had within himself the ability to be very humble and that to him the truth WAS paramount! For that and much more I will remember him always.
He had it within himself to be the best of us all.

His about face on waterboarding after being waterboarded was the point that I started paying attention to him.

His about face on Saddam era Iraq stood out more in my mind. After being a champion of the anti-war movement in the first Gulf war he went and spent time with the Iraqi Kurds. He came back vehement in his conviction that America's worst crime in Iraq was in essence listening to him in the first place and not pushing into Baghdad and removing Saddam the first time.

It isn't something that can be sold, but told, because faith comes by hearing. It is what is being offered freely..that the free gift of God is eternal life. It cannot be earned, but it is given to all those who would receive it.

You're right, certainly no one wants to be reminded that they are a sinner, but they certainly are going to wish someone told them later on. I had no trouble accepting this truth, personally..it was clearly obvious to me that I had done things which were offensive to a holy God. Some people are too prideful to admit it, though their conscience tells them otherwise. Why not humble yourself and be cleansed, rather than carry that weight around everywhere you go? It will never leave you until you ask for forgiveness.

So, I appreciate your words. I am only trying to do what is right. The people hated what the Lord had to say, and still do, but He loves us anyway

Romans 5:8

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

>> ^quantumushroom:
Shiny is here to 'sell' a point of view. Granted, it's the wrong audience to espouse fundamentalism, but if you see someone's house is burning in the night, you don't worry about their grumpiness at being awakened by total strangers.
Be grateful for hearing other points of view, and more grateful for resistance, it's the only thing that builds strength.
>> ^petpeeved:
>> ^quantumushroom:
Someone wrote of shiny: It's highly unlikely that you will ever convert anyone here but at the very least you'd be less despised if you weren't so angry and obnoxious all the time.
Shiny's the one being infinitely patient here, and by an act of free will endures these cheap shots. A less angry foe you do not have.
A good Christian spreads the Word, and in another Penn video Penn himself states if you Believe, you should be out spreading your message.
You should be grateful there are shinys out there to keep you honest, as honest as a liberal can be, anyway.

I can't swallow this. By its very nature, Christianity as espoused by Shiny is bigoted and infinitely intolerant (the ultimate end of impatience) of any view point in opposition of its literally written in stone beliefs.
Just because the evangelists adopt a cloyingly condescending tone that can be mistaken for politeness when they 'discuss' (read: lecture and don't listen) this with us heathens does not make them 'less angry' or 'infinitely patient'.

At that time of my life I already had. It was the persistent lack of response that first got me to doubt it all. If there is a God, he's got a hell of a way of treating children.

I hear this all the time from people who walk away from God. Usually, it is one of three things..either some tragedy happens which throws their faith into doubt, or, it is because God didn't grant them what they wanted or didn't provide them signs to prove He exists.

Now, if one does read the word of God and follow it, it is fairly clear that there is no promise of a pain free life, one that is free from loss. In fact, it states precisely the opposite, that trials and persecutions will come, that we should expect them, and that they are to our benefit:

1 Peter

4:12 Beloved, don't be astonished at the fiery trial which has come upon you,
to test you, as though a strange thing happened to you.
4:13 But because you are partakers of Christ's sufferings, rejoice;
that at the revelation of his glory also you may rejoice with exceeding joy.

Romans 5:3-5

Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

This is what Jesus said about signs:

Matthew 16:4

An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed.

If you had faith in Jesus, and that what He said is truth, you wouldn't fail to notice the hand of God in your life. It is still there, though you do not see it. The reason you do not see it is because you refuse to budge:

Hebrews 11:6

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

and again:

James 4:8

Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

You want God to demonstrate His love, which He is always doing for you (which is plainly obvious each and every day if you could only see it), but what He wants is for you to demonstrate yours.

And as far as prayers go, He doesn't answer all prayers. Did He answer this prayer?:

Luke 22:42

"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

Do you notice how Jesus prays? "yet not my will, but yours be done"? We don't know what we need, and much of what we ask for are things that are contrary to the Fathers will and planning. If there was ever a prayer He would have wanted to grant, it would be this one, yet if He had, then all would be dead in their sins. His plan was better, and Jesus allowed for it, as we should if we don't receive what we wanted.

The end truth is this:

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

To abide is His love is to submit to His Lordship. Notice the last part...

I read most of that site, at least I think I did. It's easy to get lost in the layout. I also watched several of the videos. I think you, and proselytizers in general, have this impression that non-believers are such only because they've never heard the story before. I've heard all of this hundreds and hundreds of times. I was raised with it. I heard it in Sunday school and at mass. I hear it at funerals. People knock on my door at 7am to tell me. Even the people who adopted my cat when I had to give him up took 20 minutes to tell me about Jesus.

You can read something a hundred times and never understand it..and I don't think you do from what you have shared with me thus far. It's good that you remain open-minded; I appreciate that about you.

I get that they (and presumably, you) think you are doing a good thing, but saying the same thing over and over does not make progress. I cannot take things, especially such fantastic things, on such weak evidence. No matter how many people believe, it's not proof. No number of anecdotes will convince me that a man was resurrected and, even if he was, it would still not prove there was a God. It would only be something without a definite explanation.

I'm doing what the Lord told me to do, and because I care, and in the end all I will be able to say is that I am an unworthy servant who (hopefully) did his duty.


The resurrection is proof that every word He said is true, as it is when you receive the Holy Spirit. When I first met you, I perceived a spirit about you, and I imagined that perhaps you were some kind of pagan. When I found out you were agnostic it occured to me that perhaps you were an ex-Christian. Now, that I know I can see that you do have the Holy Spirit with you, but that the light has been dimmed to almost nothing. So, the sad irony is that God already gave you your proof but you are completely oblivious to it.

As for the Penn Jillette video you mention at needhim.org, you're right, it's a nice story. I think you could learn something from the man that story is about. It's highly unlikely that you will ever convert anyone here but at the very least you'd be less despised if you weren't so angry and obnoxious all the time. You get more flies with honey than shit.

I cannot convert anyone, that is the work of the Holy Spirit. And I have been despised since the moment I came here and opened my mouth. Yes, I have said stupid things more than a few times, but I am only human. This has more to do with prejudice than anything else, and some people have recognized that and spoken out about it.
>> ^xxovercastxx:
>> ^shinyblurry:
If He showed up, would you give your life over to Him? I don't know if God is answering half-hearted prayers..
.

>> ^bobknight33:

No I'm not talking about taxes, If she feels so much hatred towards the 1% that she herself is in then why doesn't she give all that "extra cash" that she has to the government? It would cleanse her sole. Oh wait a minute she does not believe in GOD so she doesn't have a sole. >> ^dystopianfuturetoday:
So you are saying that because she wants her tax bracket to be taxed at a higher rate, that she should calculate that amount and give it to the government as charity? You do realize that does not make any sense, right? If I wanted the government to provide universal healthcare, would you expect me to offer free amateur open heart surgery sessions to needy people? I can pencil you in for next Wednesday.
>> ^bobknight33:
I'm sure she is in the 1% and I doubt she gives much away as she wants others to do.




She doesn't have a sole? Sure she does -- I hear she likes to pan fry it with a little bit of butter, some lemon and some slivered almonds. Mmmm, delicious!

No I'm not talking about taxes, If she feels so much hatred towards the 1% that she herself is in then why doesn't she give all that "extra cash" that she has to the government? It would cleanse her sole. Oh wait a minute she does not believe in GOD so she doesn't have a sole. >> ^dystopianfuturetoday:

So you are saying that because she wants her tax bracket to be taxed at a higher rate, that she should calculate that amount and give it to the government as charity? You do realize that does not make any sense, right? If I wanted the government to provide universal healthcare, would you expect me to offer free amateur open heart surgery sessions to needy people? I can pencil you in for next Wednesday.
>> ^bobknight33:
I'm sure she is in the 1% and I doubt she gives much away as she wants others to do.