It is NOT a choice between "god and nothingness," It is a choice between childish myth, wishful thinking, and divine slavery based upon brain washing and fear, or the choice of reality, based upon logic, free thought, education and common sense. Faith is simply faith. After all, if god existed, faith would not be necessary, he would be fact.

>> ^A10anis:
It is NOT a choice between "god and nothingness," It is a choice between childish myth, wishful thinking, and divine slavery based upon brain washing and fear, or the choice of reality, based upon logic, free thought, education and common sense. Faith is simply faith. After all, if god existed, faith would not be necessary, he would be fact.


That's a very unsophisticated analysis, A10anis, and very biased as well. It's really a big surprise that you've attributed rationality solely to your viewpoint. Based on what? You've made all sorts of claims here, but nothing to substantiate them.

It is a clear choice between a Universe that was created intentionally, with meaning and purpose, and a Universe that is a product of chance, without meaning and purpose. What other choices are there?

Another question is, how would you know which one you were in?

Faith is simply faith. After all, if god existed, faith would not be necessary, he would be fact.

That's a false dilemma, A10anis. A couple of them, actually. Clearly God can exist and require our faith at the same time.

*SNORE*

does it take more arrogance to assert divine creation or that "we don't know, we should investigate"?


Question: If yahweh created everything? Who created yahweh?


If yahweh spontaneously created itself or existed forever without a precise beginning..

Why can't you just apply that to the universe itself and ShutTheFUUUUUUCKUp

What is so fucking hard about saying "I don't know."

You want to believe in a creator? more power to you. I got zero problem with that. The problem comes when we have people of different faiths or non-faiths. We all have to live together on this mudball. So when a faith tries to claim moral authority, it tends to end in tears and bloodshed.

Being a moral person is simple survival 101. I have a better chance of survival if I work together with people instead of against them. We can all do more, be more productive, and live happier lives if we're all healthy. We live happier, more productive lives if we don't steal from or kill each other.

There's your basic morality right there and it did not require god. It's that simple people.

I won't say god is dead however, BECAUSE I DON'T FUCKING KNOW! I don't have any grand insights into the inner workings of creation and what created life, the universe, and everything so I simply can't say and neither can you because in that regard, you're just like me.

Why delude yourself into believing something you can't prove exists?
Does this comfort you? Are you scared of an inevitable end?
Do you need in imaginary story-book man to hold your hand as you face the end of your life-span?

I will never understand the trumped-up theory of religion.

BORING!

you guys have just been trolled by a priest

does it take more arrogance to assert divine creation or that "we don't know, we should investigate"?

I think it takes more arrogance to rule it out. Investigation is great; we have better evidence today of creation than we ever did before.

Question: If yahweh created everything? Who created yahweh?
If yahweh spontaneously created itself or existed forever without a precise beginning..

Why can't you just apply that to the universe itself and ShutTheFUUUUUUCKUp

No one created God, He is eternal. If you're fine with an eternal universe then you obviously don't have a problem with something being eternal. Your problem seem to come when that something is an eternal person. The reason I don't apply it to the Universe is because all of the evidence points to it having an absolute beginning.


>> ^GenjiKilpatrick

What is so fucking hard about saying "I don't know."

The dilemma for you is, if you don't know, then how can you say that I don't know either? You assume that I don't, because you don't (and perhaps you assume that I can't). Obviously, it would be a trivial thing for God to reveal Himself to me in such a way as that I could know it, and Him, for certain. You seem rather closed minded to the idea for someone who doesn't know.

You want to believe in a creator? more power to you. I got zero problem with that. The problem comes when we have people of different faiths or non-faiths. We all have to live together on this mudball. So when a faith tries to claim moral authority, it tends to end in tears and bloodshed.

Bloodshed comes when evil men seize power over others and use something like religion as a pretense. Men have never been short of excuses for killing. Millions of Christians were exterminated under the atheistic state in communist Russia. The problem is when men claim moral authority and are a law unto themselves, instead of submitting to the God from whence all law and authority is derived.

Being a moral person is simple survival 101. I have a better chance of survival if I work together with people instead of against them. We can all do more, be more productive, and live happier lives if we're all healthy. We live happier, more productive lives if we don't steal from or kill each other.

There's your basic morality right there and it did not require god. It's that simple people.

Some people feel it is happier and more productive to steal from or kill each other. Who is right?

Scripture says that God has written His laws on our hearts. Everyone has a conscience that tells them right from wrong. Even psychopaths know right from wrong, they just ignore it.

I won't say god is dead however, BECAUSE I DON'T FUCKING KNOW! I don't have any grand insights into the inner workings of creation and what created life, the universe, and everything so I simply can't say and neither can you because in that regard, you're just like me.

I can't tell you how God did it, exactly, but I know that He is. I can tell you that because He has revealed Himself to me, personally. God gives revelation of His existence to anyone who wants to know Him. To those whose minds and hearts are closed to all the ways He tries to reach them, He keeps knocking, but it is their choice ultimately to open the door.

Revelation 3:20

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

You could know God, but the question is, why don't you want to? Ask yourself why you are keeping that door shut.

>> ^VoodooV:

Why delude yourself into believing something you can't prove exists?
Does this comfort you? Are you scared of an inevitable end?
Do you need in imaginary story-book man to hold your hand as you face the end of your life-span?

I will never understand the trumped-up theory of religion.

God proves Himself through revelation. He revealed Himself to me, and He would do so with you, if you would just open the door to one of all the many times He has knocked upon it.

>> ^Sagemind:

@shinyblurry

There's a question that causes debate among many believers, and that is the age old question... Are Jesus and God the same? Well, it does say that "for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son", so naturally you would think the answer is a simple no.

But as nearly ever other aspect of Christianity goes, it's not that simple. For some reason Christians think Jesus is God, God is Jesus, and so on. Yet, they cannot back up this belief with anything from the Bible. There are so many things one can use to show that Jesus was not God, but none to the contrary.

Of course one of the first things you come across would be the concept of an infinite God in a finite body. I understand the argument of God being non-physical, and thus size would not be an issue. But what about other human limitations shown by Jesus. Primarily dying. Why would God become a person, just to die, therefore destroying any beliefs that this guy was God? Well, at least it should have destroyed beliefs. The only reasonable thing would be to survive death and live forever on earth to prove that you are God. Hell, if there was a 2000 year old man who could document it and that had public records of... I'd believe in God.

The main thing is that Jesus never called himself God, never insinuated he was God. He mostly referred to himself as Son of Man. Now people often cite various biblical verses with sayings like "I and the father are one" and that you can't get to the father without Jesus. But regardless of how much those who would like to believe it as being Jesus saying he is God close their eyes and wish. It will never be an admittance of being God.

Many of gurus, and well, anyone who has found the zone have become one with something. Be it a monk trying to be one with the universe, or Wayne Gretzky being one with his hockey stick. It's a common saying of something being so familiar to you that it's nearly a part of you. Jesus was only saying that he knows God so well, that God has become a part of him. Now for some on topic humor. What did the Guru say to the pizza man? Make me one with everything.

Now how do people think that because Jesus said that the only way to get to the father is through him, that he said he was God? Who knows? All he was saying was that he was the guide to God, follow him and you will see God. It's like that Heavens Gate guy said that he was the way to get to the Hale Bop comet, he wasn't saying that he was the Hale Bop comet.

There's a question that causes debate among many believers, and that is the age old question... Are Jesus and God the same? Well, it does say that "for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son", so naturally you would think the answer is a simple no.


On the contrary,

John 8:58

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.

Jesus not only claimed to pre-exist Abraham, but He took the divine name, I am, for Himself:

Exodus 3:13-15

13Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”

14God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’

The jews knew exactly what He was saying, which is the reason they were trying to kill Him

Jesus claimed to be equal with God:

John 5:17-18

17Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God

And again:

John 10:30-34

I and my Father are one.

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Again, the jews were trying to kill Him because He claimed to be God.

Here again, Jesus claims the divine name for Himself:

Mark 12:35-37

And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?

For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

Notice that He is referring to David as the "Lord" and Himself as the "LORD". The "LORD" is God.

Jesus often referred to Himself as the Son of Man..who is the Son of Man?

Daniel 7:13-15

In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed

The Son of Man is the rightful heir to the divine throne who will rule, forever, and only God receives worship:

Matthew 4:10

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Jesus received worship many times, never correcting them:

Matthew 2:2

Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him.”

Matthew 14:33

And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!

Matthew 28:9

And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.

John 9:35-38

Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”

Scripture also declares that He is God:

John 1:1;14

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth

John 20:28-29,

"Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed

Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.'"

The reason God became a person is what the gospel is all about. If you're asking how, I think that would be a trivial thing for God to do. Jesus came as a man to reconcile men back to God. All men are sinners, and we have a corrupt nature predisposed to sin. We've all broken Gods laws, and the wages of our sin is death. Jesus, however lived a perfect, sinless life, which qualified Him to be a sacrifice for the sins of the world. He took all of our sins upon Himself and took the punishment that we deserved on the cross. In this, He reconciled the two natures. We have a sinful, corrupt nature which is separated from God..but He brought the righteousness of God into it by becoming a man and imbued into mans nature, so that we could once again have fellowship with God..but it is only through His righteousness that we are justified. That is why He is the way, the truth and the life.









>> ^lurgee

>> ^shinyblurry:

No one created God, He is eternal.

>> ^


Thats the debate in a nutshell.

Atheists can't explain eternity nor do they require it to be explained. Religious types can answer it and need it to be answered.

It comes down to what Williams James called "personal temperament". Beyond this you are just shouting past one another. Metaphysics has not, and most likely can not, answer this.

The effects of such temperaments is quite another matter.

You really haven't been paying attention if you think I'm not open to the idea of a god @shinyblurry. The very fact that I'm arguing I don't know, directly implies that I'm an agnostic, not an atheist.

There could be a god. But 1) there has to be proof of the it's existence and 2) Religion and god are two separate things, just because a creator exists doesn't give any more credibility to religion. There are many many religions out there. Assuming one is right, that means many are wrong More than likely, all are wrong. In all likelihood, odds are better that a creator would be more like Cthulhu then some caucasian, gun loving republican. You claim god made us in his image, when in reality, it's far more likely that you made god in our image. The simple truth though is that god is academic. Either he's always been here and it's all part of some ridiculously elaborate pre-destination plan so it doesn't matter what we do as it's all part of the plan, or he doesn't care, or he does, but he doesn't intervene. In each of those cases. The alleged fact of a creator's existence does not affect our lives, at least not any way we're aware of. Nor does a creator suddenly make any of the religions right or true.

Or god doesn't exist and never has. Again...nothing changes. religion still exists in spite of this, they still get together and do their thing and that's fine. Religion is not inherently bad, it's what you DO with religion that is hurtful or helpful. Even if you removed religion from humanity forever. Humanity still has a ton of other things that we do that are part of our lives that have no rational basis in fact but we do it anyway. That's fine...it's part of what makes us human.

The dilemma is not for me to believe, the dilemma is for you and/or your god to prove why I should believe. Especially if you want public policy to be influenced. When public policy is not involved, you have the same freedoms everyone else does. And you can't use the bible to prove you're right. You do know what circular reasoning is and that' it's a fallacy right? You quoting the bible does absolutely nothing other than to show you don't really understand what reasoning and logic is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

Religion wants to say they're right and everyone else is wrong. That's nice. A lot of people think they're right and everyone else is wrong. I think I'm right and my supervisor is wrong. The onus is on me to show why I'm right.

I'm glad you've found happiness in your religion. I've found happiness in the way I live which does not require a god or a religion. Who is right? Maybe none of us are right. Maybe we both are right. The lesson is just simply that there are many ways to happiness. There is no single way. Your happiness is not better than my happiness and vice versa. Your happiness does not get to infringe on my happiness and vice versa. This is how we live and get along in the great melting pot. You don't get dominion. you never will. History is quite clear on what happens when a group of people come along and say, live our way..or else. Believe in the same things we believe...or else.

Some people feel it is happier and more productive to steal from or kill each other. Who is right?
your happiness does not get to trump someone else's happiness. If you let people steal and kill you have a lot of unhappy, and dead people. That's not sustainable and you can't really survive that way. Again, simple morality that does not require a creator. Next question?

"I reserve the right to believe in the possibility of God." -Nick Cave

Why hello there @shinnyblurry, we meet again (sort of). You know, it's kind of funny that while I was watching this video I was suddenly struck by the memory of our last encounter and expected that I'd see your responses to this video (and other people). Either way, no hard feelings about our previous encounters or anything.

If you can believe it, you've inspired me in a way. Not in the way that I imagine you might hope though. I don't really get into debates/arguments with died-in-the-wool believers anymore. Especially those who claim person divine revelation. There isn't a whole lot to be said at that point because most people aren't interested in attempting to falsify their own experiences. They especially aren't interested in attempting to falsify experiences that they deems profoundly meaningful to them personally, giving them new meaning to their life which I can understand. That kind of debate/argument cannot bear fruit unless something like education standards or public policies are at stake.

I'm sure you remember my whole standpoint on the god(s) thing, so I wont repeat myself, I mostly wanted to say Hi

I will say this though; personal revelations aside, "I don't know" followed up by skeptical inquiry is a far better answer and process to interacting with questions that we simply cannot, or haven't yet, verify objectively. I just can't accept that personal revelation is good enough to determine whether or not something is true. The probability of being incorrect about an experience is astounding. Humans are pattern seeking and creating machines. The answer "I don't know" is extremely hard to rest on for most humans because there is a biological need to fill in the blanks of our knowledge, and we do that by looking for patterns which may or may not be there. It was far better to believe that a predator is in the bushes when they rustle than to employ investigative powers thus taking the risk of being eaten. The studies on these phenomenon are amazing and it's amazing to see how easily humans will accept an an answer that doesn't make logical or empirical sense in order to avoid being in the position of "I don't know". It requires a lot of mental rigor to maintain "I don't know" as a placeholder. It goes against human biology. There is also less cognitive dissonance felt if investigation can be halted. When a belief is strongly held, it's fascinating how many self justification techniques are used to maintain that belief. There is a lot of literature and research that strongly suggest that superstitions follow from the urge to provide an answer rather than resting at "I don't know".

Anyone can say that they "know" because of some personal revelation, but does that mean that what they believe is actually true? Is personal revelation actually good enough?

Either way, it's all very fascinating stuff and there are a lot of books out there which cover all of the techniques that humans use in fooling themselves, to self justify beliefs, and in preventing cognitive dissonance.
>> ^shinyblurry:

>> ^A10anis:
It is NOT a choice between "god and nothingness," It is a choice between childish myth, wishful thinking, and divine slavery based upon brain washing and fear, or the choice of reality, based upon logic, free thought, education and common sense. Faith is simply faith. After all, if god existed, faith would not be necessary, he would be fact.

That's a very unsophisticated analysis, A10anis, and very biased as well. It's really a big surprise that you've attributed rationality solely to your viewpoint. Based on what? You've made all sorts of claims here, but nothing to substantiate them.
It is a clear choice between a Universe that was created intentionally, with meaning and purpose, and a Universe that is a product of chance, without meaning and purpose. What other choices are there?
Another question is, how would you know which one you were in?
Faith is simply faith. After all, if god existed, faith would not be necessary, he would be fact.
That's a false dilemma, A10anis. A couple of them, actually. Clearly God can exist and require our faith at the same time.

Why is it that every religious poster has to speak in strawmen? This one is pretending there is something hateful about saying "I DON'T BELIEVE YOU." I guess the Nigerian prince would call it hateful if I didn't give him my bank account. Playing the victim card in the first few lines of your special snowflake poem is a good way to get me to go take a shit while your video is playing.

If it weren't for religious hate, you'd never hear from an atheist.

I hope this guy at least came up with something more intelligent than "I hate Coca-Cola, but I LOVE Coke."

Moving this video to shinyblurry's personal queue. It failed to receive enough votes to get sifted up to the front page within 2 days.

>> ^Kofi:

>> ^shinyblurry:
No one created God, He is eternal.

>> ^

Thats the debate in a nutshell.
Atheists can't explain eternity nor do they require it to be explained. Religious types can answer it and need it to be answered.
It comes down to what Williams James called "personal temperament". Beyond this you are just shouting past one another. Metaphysics has not, and most likely can not, answer this.
The effects of such temperaments is quite another matter.


I wouldn't say I can explain eternity, but I can say that it is logical to believe in something eternal. Logic tells us that from nothing, nothing comes. Therefore, unless there is an eternal first cause, you would have to believe that nothing created everything, which is an absurdity.

You really haven't been paying attention if you think I'm not open to the idea of a god @shinyblurry. The very fact that I'm arguing I don't know, directly implies that I'm an agnostic, not an atheist.

I've seen that you have an openness to the idea, but you're also quick to take an adversarial position. Are you truly open to who God is? Are you okay with the idea of a God so long as it isn't Jesus?

I can also say that as a former agnostic, I understand where you're coming from.

There could be a god. But 1) there has to be proof of the it's existence

Logically, if there is a God, the entire Universe is proof of His existence. I don't know about you, but personally I find the idea of Universes spontaneously creating themselves to be an absurdity.

Imagine a painting with three black lines on it. You could come to all sorts of conclusions about what that is supposed to represent. You could draw philosophical ideas from it. You could see it as a social commentary, or a mathematical representation. You could measure it, sample the paint and paper, run many different tests. You could count the number of brushstrokes. You could do all of this and more, subject it to every sort of empirical inquiry, and you would be no closer to finding about the intention of the painter than you were when you started.

The only way you are going to see the signature of the Creator is if you realize you are looking at His Creation. The evidence is *everywhere*. Neither is poking and prodding it and subjecting it to tests going to tell you anything about what He intended. This is the only real question.

and 2) Religion and god are two separate things, just because a creator exists doesn't give any more credibility to religion.

I agree, and I've made this point to atheists in the past, mainly when I believed that no religion was the correct one. If you consider that everything is equally unlikely, then you are looking at 50/50 odds for special creation versus naturalistic means.

There are many many religions out there. Assuming one is right, that means many are wrong More than likely, all are wrong.

Why is it more likely that all are wrong rather than one being right? The question is, has God revealed Himself to the world, or not. If not, then all are wrong. If so, then one is right.

In all likelihood, odds are better that a creator would be more like Cthulhu then some caucasian, gun loving republican. You claim god made us in his image, when in reality, it's far more likely that you made god in our image.

The stereotype you are presenting does not represent anything Christians believe. Maybe some Christians act that way, but that isn't what scripture says about God. It says that as the Heavens are higher than the Earth, so are His ways above our ways.

If we were created, humans are the Creators crowning achievement. The "odds" are better that He made us like Him.

The simple truth though is that god is academic. Either he's always been here and it's all part of some ridiculously elaborate pre-destination plan so it doesn't matter what we do as it's all part of the plan, or he doesn't care, or he does, but he doesn't intervene. In each of those cases. The alleged fact of a creator's existence does not affect our lives, at least not any way we're aware of. Nor does a creator suddenly make any of the religions right or true.

Or, it does matter what we do, because God does intervene in His creation, and He has given us a standard of behavior which He is going to judge us by. The existence of God does not make any of the religions true, but it is positive evidence that one of them is true.

Or god doesn't exist and never has. Again...nothing changes. religion still exists in spite of this, they still get together and do their thing and that's fine. Religion is not inherently bad, it's what you DO with religion that is hurtful or helpful. Even if you removed religion from humanity forever. Humanity still has a ton of other things that we do that are part of our lives that have no rational basis in fact but we do it anyway. That's fine...it's part of what makes us human.

Man corrupts everything he touches because our nature is inherently sinful. Man can use anything as an excuse to do evil.

The dilemma is not for me to believe, the dilemma is for you and/or your god to prove why I should believe. Especially if you want public policy to be influenced. When public policy is not involved, you have the same freedoms everyone else does. And you can't use the bible to prove you're right. You do know what circular reasoning is and that' it's a fallacy right? You quoting the bible does absolutely nothing other than to show you don't really understand what reasoning and logic is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

Except there is evidence in the bible which proves the bible is Gods word, such as the fulfilled prophecy. It may not prove that I am right, to you, but the evidence has convinced over 1/3 of the worlds population. That isn't even the question, in any case. I'm not trying to prove I am right to you. I don't believe there is anything I can do to ever convince you that God exists, or that His name is Jesus Christ. That's the work of the Holy Spirit.

That is what I was explaining to you earlier. It's not an evidence problem, it's a heart problem. God has already given you sufficient evidence to know that He is, and who He is. Only God can change your heart. What He charged me with is to tell you the gospel and give you an answer for the faith that I have.

Religion wants to say they're right and everyone else is wrong. That's nice. A lot of people think they're right and everyone else is wrong. I think I'm right and my supervisor is wrong. The onus is on me to show why I'm right.

I'm glad you've found happiness in your religion. I've found happiness in the way I live which does not require a god or a religion. Who is right? Maybe none of us are right. Maybe we both are right. The lesson is just simply that there are many ways to happiness. There is no single way. Your happiness is not better than my happiness and vice versa. Your happiness does not get to infringe on my happiness and vice versa. This is how we live and get along in the great melting pot. You don't get dominion. you never will. History is quite clear on what happens when a group of people come along and say, live our way..or else. Believe in the same things we believe...or else.

Christians are not called to have dominion. I will of course strongly disagree with immoral laws, but people have the right to govern themselves as they wish. Although this is still a strongly Christian nation, we have a strong secular influence in our government. I accept that as being the reality.

your happiness does not get to trump someone else's happiness. If you let people steal and kill you have a lot of unhappy, and dead people. That's not sustainable and you can't really survive that way. Again, simple morality that does not require a creator. Next question?


You said that it isn't sustainable yet if you look at history you will see that stealing and killing is what we have been doing all along. The point is this..Let's say that the Nazis won the war and conquered the world. Eventually, they won everyone over to their philosophy, and now there is peace on the Earth. The glue that holds everything together is that once a year, they torture a jewish baby to death on camera, which brings great happiness and unity to the entire world. One year the baby died before they could torture it, and there were riots and many, many people were killed. Is it therefore moral to torture that baby to death, since it brings peace and happiness to the entire world?

>> ^VoodooV

>> ^Ryjkyj:

"I reserve the right to believe in the possibility of God." -Nick Cave


What kind of God do you think is possible?

Hey, hello again. Good to see you. I do remember our conversation. I'm glad I could inspire you in some way and I pray it will eventually bear fruit.

As a former agnostic, I was perfectly fine with the answer "I don't know". That was never a scary thing to me. At the time, I simply did not have enough information to say either way. I wasn't going to go beyond what I felt was possible to understand given our subjective bias. I only changed my mind when I received revelation of Gods existence. Neither was it a single revelation that I base my belief on, rather it is actually a daily revelation. I could no more deny Gods existence than my own reflection in the mirror. To know God is to know Him personally, and to know Him personally means that He is personally involved in the intimate details of your life.

My question to you is, are you willing to falsify your viewpoint? I already had mine falsified, which is why I became a Christian. I don't expect you to accept my personal testimony as absolute proof of anything. You can investigate the claim for yourself, by asking Jesus to come into your life as Lord and Savior. You can falsify your view this way:

Pray something like..Jesus, I don't know if you're there or not, but if you are there, I want to know you. If you let me know you are there, I will give my life to you. Please come into my life as Lord and Savior. Thank you God. Amen.

Are you willing to do that?

>> ^IAmTheBlurr:

Could you point out the straw man or hateful comments? I'm scratching my head at this one..

>> ^PostalBlowfish:

Why is it that every religious poster has to speak in strawmen? This one is pretending there is something hateful about saying "I DON'T BELIEVE YOU." I guess the Nigerian prince would call it hateful if I didn't give him my bank account. Playing the victim card in the first few lines of your special snowflake poem is a good way to get me to go take a shit while your video is playing.
If it weren't for religious hate, you'd never hear from an atheist.
I hope this guy at least came up with something more intelligent than "I hate Coca-Cola, but I LOVE Coke."

I was referring to the video and most of my forum experience, not to you. I had not yet read any of your comments. The point wasn't to get into an exchange of text walls.

>> ^shinyblurry:

>> ^Ryjkyj:
"I reserve the right to believe in the possibility of God." -Nick Cave

What kind of God do you think is possible?


Good question Shiny. I don't think anything is necessarily impossible, because I don't claim to understand everything. But that's exactly the point, "I reserve the right to think for myself."

Again though, this is just a quote. I can't defend the position of someone else.

I would not pray what you have suggested. For one, I do not need a lord or savior. Two, the god that you believe in should know exactly what it would take to prove its existence and unless those rigorous conditions are met, I will maintain my doubt.

Personal revelation, whether singular or continuous, is not, for me, a good measure of whether or not I should believe something. Demonstrable, reproducible, externally verifiable, logically sound, and consistency with what we can/do know about reality are, among others, the basis of what it takes for me to believe something. The god of the bible, as well as all supernatural claims, are none of those so therefore I cannot believe in its existence.

That kind of prayer is not meaningful investigation and my view is that of doubt and skepticism. “I don’t know” is a null position, a “0” in binary, and because it makes no claims to knowledge, my position does not require falsification. “I do not believe” and “I don’t know” is not a claim to knowledge. Claims to knowledge are what require a path to falsification.

If you were truly agnostic, you couldn’t have had a claim that would have been falsified since, as an agnostic, you would admitted that you do not know.

>> ^shinyblurry:

As a former agnostic, I was perfectly fine with the answer "I don't know". That was never a scary thing to me. At the time, I simply did not have enough information to say either way. I wasn't going to go beyond what I felt was possible to understand given our subjective bias. I only changed my mind when I received revelation of Gods existence. Neither was it a single revelation that I base my belief on, rather it is actually a daily revelation. I could no more deny Gods existence than my own reflection in the mirror. To know God is to know Him personally, and to know Him personally means that He is personally involved in the intimate details of your life.
My question to you is, are you willing to falsify your viewpoint? I already had mine falsified, which is why I became a Christian. I don't expect you to accept my personal testimony as absolute proof of anything. You can investigate the claim for yourself, by asking Jesus to come into your life as Lord and Savior. You can falsify your view this way:
Pray something like..Jesus, I don't know if you're there or not, but if you are there, I want to know you. If you let me know you are there, I will give my life to you. Please come into my life as Lord and Savior. Thank you God. Amen.
Are you willing to do that?
>> ^IAmTheBlurr:

I would not pray what you have suggested.

You're unwilling to do what you accuse me and other Christians of being unwilling to do. That's called hypocrisy.

For one, I do not need a lord or savior.

You don't know whether you need a Lord and Savior, or not.

Two, the god that you believe in should know exactly what it would take to prove its existence and unless those rigorous conditions are met, I will maintain my doubt.

Romans 1:18-21

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Scripture says God has already given you sufficient evidence of His existence, but you suppress that truth and that you're without any excuse, and I believe scripture.

Personal revelation, whether singular or continuous, is not, for me, a good measure of whether or not I should believe something.

Is it possible that God could reveal Himself to you in such a way that you could know it for certain?

That kind of prayer is not meaningful investigation

Actually, it is. According to scripture, that is the only kind of investigation that will yield any results. Neither does it cost you anything. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. If I am wrong, nothing will happen. If I am right, you will come to know the truth. That you're unwilling to take a minute out of your time to do that speaks volumes about your true position.

I do not need a lord or savior

Demonstrable, reproducible, externally verifiable, logically sound, and consistency with what we can/do know about reality are, among others, the basis of what it takes for me to believe something. The god of the bible, as well as all supernatural claims, are none of those

That kind of prayer is not meaningful investigation

You make plenty of claims. You're fooling yourself if you believe that you are at all neutral on this subject. You have a calculated neutrality, merely to justify your skepticism rather than a true neutrality. If you were truly neutral you would be open to the truth. A true agnostic neither believes *nor* disbelieves.

If you were truly agnostic, you couldn’t have had a claim that would have been falsified since, as an agnostic, you would admitted that you do not know.

I was a naturalistic materialist. When God revealed Himself to me, I found out that everything I knew (or thought I knew) was in some way, wrong. Can you personally conceive of that?

>> ^IAmTheBlurr

>> ^Ryjkyj:

>> ^shinyblurry:
>> ^Ryjkyj:
"I reserve the right to believe in the possibility of God." -Nick Cave

What kind of God do you think is possible?

Good question Shiny. I don't think anything is necessarily impossible, because I don't claim to understand everything. But that's exactly the point, "I reserve the right to think for myself."
Again though, this is just a quote. I can't defend the position of someone else.


Ahh, I understand. I was just wondering what you thought is possible. Clearly, you think the existence of God is unlikely?

>> ^shinyblurry:

>> ^Ryjkyj:
>> ^shinyblurry:
>> ^Ryjkyj:
"I reserve the right to believe in the possibility of God." -Nick Cave

What kind of God do you think is possible?

Good question Shiny. I don't think anything is necessarily impossible, because I don't claim to understand everything. But that's exactly the point, "I reserve the right to think for myself."
Again though, this is just a quote. I can't defend the position of someone else.

Ahh, I understand. I was just wondering what you thought is possible. Clearly, you think the existence of God is unlikely?


The more I think about it, the more I realize that my brain just simply has no concept of eternity.