No "minorities" anywhere on earth have it better than American "minorities". Isn't this the guy who said he loves Black people but hates N-ers?

Did I see some stats saying it won't be long until white people will be a minority in the US? Then get ready for some white people craziness!

I don't know. White people (particularly WASPy white folks) have it pretty good wherever they go. You see the difference is, in most of those situations, white people moved seeking a better life (much like your favorite soon to be not "minority" from the south). That wasn't so much the case with black people. For the most part they moved because white people, and really just rich white people, were crazy.

Progress:
–noun
1.
a movement toward a goal or to a further or higher stage:
"the progress of a student toward a degree."
"the progress of the sun across the sky."
--ion "the progression of time."

Sorry, has to be a downvote. He's associating negative emotional connotation with a word which just doesn't deserve it. There HAS been progress. If black people were even more segregated than they were in 1930, that would also be a form of progress. However, the goal was set by martin luther himself - equality. Progress has been made towards that goal.

Contrary to your opinion, i would say this video is a bad point well made. It must be well made if he managed to convince people into a false definition of a word everyone knows!

Toss emotion regarding race issues aside for one moment when reading my post, please.

Edit: Love chris rock by the way, but this is just nonsense. The word "progress" does not imply that the situation progressed from was a rational situation.

>> ^quantumushroom:

No "minorities" anywhere on earth have it better than American "minorities". Isn't this the guy who said he loves Black people but hates N-ers?


"No Christians anywhere on earth have it better than American Christians." Does that mean you can't complain about American atheists and agnostics?

>> ^dannym3141:

Progress:
–noun
1.
a movement toward a goal or to a further or higher stage:
"the progress of a student toward a degree."
"the progress of the sun across the sky."
--ion "the progression of time."
Sorry, has to be a downvote. He's associating negative emotional connotation with a word which just doesn't deserve it. There HAS been progress. If black people were even more segregated than they were in 1930, that would also be a form of progress. However, the goal was set by martin luther himself - equality. Progress has been made towards that goal.
Contrary to your opinion, i would say this video is a bad point well made. It must be well made if he managed to convince people into a false definition of a word everyone knows!
Toss emotion regarding race issues aside for one moment when reading my post, please.
Edit: Love chris rock by the way, but this is just nonsense. The word "progress" does not imply that the situation progressed from was a rational situation.


I get what you're saying, but I think Chris Rock was using the word 'progress' to mean 'get better than you were before.' In that light, it's really whites that have progressed, beyond Jim Crow laws and lynch mobs. Black people have historically done a lot to help that process along, but they did not themselves undergo any change in thinking, akin to that which white people have since those days; they always saw unequal treatment as unfair, while their oppressors didn't progress to that point until more recently. At least that's my understanding of what he was saying, and I don't even know what documentary they're talking about.

>> ^CircleMaker:

>> ^dannym3141:
Progress:
–noun
1.
a movement toward a goal or to a further or higher stage:
"the progress of a student toward a degree."
"the progress of the sun across the sky."
--ion "the progression of time."
Sorry, has to be a downvote. He's associating negative emotional connotation with a word which just doesn't deserve it. There HAS been progress. If black people were even more segregated than they were in 1930, that would also be a form of progress. However, the goal was set by martin luther himself - equality. Progress has been made towards that goal.
Contrary to your opinion, i would say this video is a bad point well made. It must be well made if he managed to convince people into a false definition of a word everyone knows!
Toss emotion regarding race issues aside for one moment when reading my post, please.
Edit: Love chris rock by the way, but this is just nonsense. The word "progress" does not imply that the situation progressed from was a rational situation.

I get what you're saying, but I think Chris Rock was using the word 'progress' to mean 'get better than you were before.' In that light, it's really whites that have progressed, beyond Jim Crow laws and lynch mobs. Black people have historically done a lot to help that process along, but they did not themselves undergo any change in thinking, akin to that which white people have since those days; they always saw unequal treatment as unfair, while their oppressors didn't progress to that point until more recently. At least that's my understanding of what he was saying, and I don't even know what documentary they're talking about.


I know he was using the word in that way, i'm explaining that he's wrong.

you guys are focusing on the word "progress" - i think the focus is on the word "crazy" ... and in that regard, segregation and slavery wasn't really crazy to anyone reaping the profits of the systems in place.

Slavery, in actuality, yes - crazy. But in financial terms, a business practice to maximize profits. This country has always been ruled by the landowners and the wealthy and slave labor has always been used. First african americans, now foreign workers at slave's wages... including migrant workers.
The elite still have slaves, kept in bondage by wages far below a living wage.

when slavery "officially" ended in the US, segregation was used as a policy to hold blacks without power, so that wealthy landowners could still utilize incredibly cheap labor. Both slavery and segregation are economic strategies to maximize profit.
The really crazy thing is that the bottom 90% of the american population are economic slaves, and they are held in it by a system of debt. welcome to america. this is how the rich get richer, and the poor grow poorer.

3. advancement in general.
4. growth or development; continuous improvement

Context be damned!

His point is that it's often presented as if blacks have finally come around and are living up to our ideals, as if they've progressed to the point where white people no longer find it necessary to beat, enslave, lynch and oppress them. The truth is, whites have finally come around and stopped treating Blacks like shit. Whites are the ones who've made progress, as we've learned to treat blacks like other people.

>> ^dannym3141:

Progress:
–noun
1.
a movement toward a goal or to a further or higher stage:
"the progress of a student toward a degree."
"the progress of the sun across the sky."
--ion "the progression of time."
Sorry, has to be a downvote. He's associating negative emotional connotation with a word which just doesn't deserve it. There HAS been progress. If black people were even more segregated than they were in 1930, that would also be a form of progress. However, the goal was set by martin luther himself - equality. Progress has been made towards that goal.
Contrary to your opinion, i would say this video is a bad point well made. It must be well made if he managed to convince people into a false definition of a word everyone knows!
Toss emotion regarding race issues aside for one moment when reading my post, please.
Edit: Love chris rock by the way, but this is just nonsense. The word "progress" does not imply that the situation progressed from was a rational situation.

>> ^xxovercastxx:

3. advancement in general.
4. growth or development; continuous improvement
Context be damned!
His point is that it's often presented as if blacks have finally come around and are living up to our ideals, as if they've progressed to the point where white people no longer find it necessary to beat, enslave, lynch and oppress them. The truth is, whites have finally come around and stopped treating Blacks like shit. Whites are the ones who've made progress, as we've learned to treat blacks like other people.
>> ^dannym3141:
Progress:
–noun
1.
a movement toward a goal or to a further or higher stage:
"the progress of a student toward a degree."
"the progress of the sun across the sky."
--ion "the progression of time."
Sorry, has to be a downvote. He's associating negative emotional connotation with a word which just doesn't deserve it. There HAS been progress. If black people were even more segregated than they were in 1930, that would also be a form of progress. However, the goal was set by martin luther himself - equality. Progress has been made towards that goal.
Contrary to your opinion, i would say this video is a bad point well made. It must be well made if he managed to convince people into a false definition of a word everyone knows!
Toss emotion regarding race issues aside for one moment when reading my post, please.
Edit: Love chris rock by the way, but this is just nonsense. The word "progress" does not imply that the situation progressed from was a rational situation.



The words that you put into his mouth reach the point he was failing to make very well. I actually think YOU are missing the context of the definition. The advancement means "advancement" towards a goal. The "development" is development towards a goal. (see my original comment) I'm still not buying this emotional connotation that "progress" means "moving away from something we consider bad".

You know cancer progresses, right? This is an emotional connotation that he is affixing and then attacking. If he's referring to people who consider "progress" to mean something different to its actual definition as he describes it, then at least he could say that's who he's addressing?

I think whether or not "progress" automatically implies positive goals is irrelevant. Let's substitute "change". Can we agree that "change" is an emotionally-neutral equivalent?

He's saying it's inaccurate to say blacks have changed because, again, it implies that they were doing something wrong in the past and now, because they've changed, we treat them as equals.

They haven't changed, whites have. Blacks have not stopped doing things wrong, whites have.

>> ^dannym3141:

>> ^xxovercastxx:
3. advancement in general.
4. growth or development; continuous improvement
Context be damned!
His point is that it's often presented as if blacks have finally come around and are living up to our ideals, as if they've progressed to the point where white people no longer find it necessary to beat, enslave, lynch and oppress them. The truth is, whites have finally come around and stopped treating Blacks like shit. Whites are the ones who've made progress, as we've learned to treat blacks like other people.
>> ^dannym3141:
Progress:
–noun
1.
a movement toward a goal or to a further or higher stage:
"the progress of a student toward a degree."
"the progress of the sun across the sky."
--ion "the progression of time."
Sorry, has to be a downvote. He's associating negative emotional connotation with a word which just doesn't deserve it. There HAS been progress. If black people were even more segregated than they were in 1930, that would also be a form of progress. However, the goal was set by martin luther himself - equality. Progress has been made towards that goal.
Contrary to your opinion, i would say this video is a bad point well made. It must be well made if he managed to convince people into a false definition of a word everyone knows!
Toss emotion regarding race issues aside for one moment when reading my post, please.
Edit: Love chris rock by the way, but this is just nonsense. The word "progress" does not imply that the situation progressed from was a rational situation.


The words that you put into his mouth reach the point he was failing to make very well. I actually think YOU are missing the context of the definition. The advancement means "advancement" towards a goal. The "development" is development towards a goal. (see my original comment) I'm still not buying this emotional connotation that "progress" means "moving away from something we consider bad".
You know cancer progresses, right? This is an emotional connotation that he is affixing and then attacking. If he's referring to people who consider "progress" to mean something different to its actual definition as he describes it, then at least he could say that's who he's addressing?

>> ^xxovercastxx:

I think whether or not "progress" automatically implies positive goals is irrelevant. Let's substitute "change". Can we agree that "change" is an emotionally-neutral equivalent?
He's saying it's inaccurate to say blacks have changed because, again, it implies that they were doing something wrong in the past and now, because they've changed, we treat them as equals.
They haven't changed, whites have. Blacks have not stopped doing things wrong, whites have.
>> ^dannym3141:
>> ^xxovercastxx:
3. advancement in general.
4. growth or development; continuous improvement
Context be damned!
His point is that it's often presented as if blacks have finally come around and are living up to our ideals, as if they've progressed to the point where white people no longer find it necessary to beat, enslave, lynch and oppress them. The truth is, whites have finally come around and stopped treating Blacks like shit. Whites are the ones who've made progress, as we've learned to treat blacks like other people.
>> ^dannym3141:
Progress:
–noun
1.
a movement toward a goal or to a further or higher stage:
"the progress of a student toward a degree."
"the progress of the sun across the sky."
--ion "the progression of time."
Sorry, has to be a downvote. He's associating negative emotional connotation with a word which just doesn't deserve it. There HAS been progress. If black people were even more segregated than they were in 1930, that would also be a form of progress. However, the goal was set by martin luther himself - equality. Progress has been made towards that goal.
Contrary to your opinion, i would say this video is a bad point well made. It must be well made if he managed to convince people into a false definition of a word everyone knows!
Toss emotion regarding race issues aside for one moment when reading my post, please.
Edit: Love chris rock by the way, but this is just nonsense. The word "progress" does not imply that the situation progressed from was a rational situation.


The words that you put into his mouth reach the point he was failing to make very well. I actually think YOU are missing the context of the definition. The advancement means "advancement" towards a goal. The "development" is development towards a goal. (see my original comment) I'm still not buying this emotional connotation that "progress" means "moving away from something we consider bad".
You know cancer progresses, right? This is an emotional connotation that he is affixing and then attacking. If he's referring to people who consider "progress" to mean something different to its actual definition as he describes it, then at least he could say that's who he's addressing?



The problem i have here is that he's NOT saying "change". You are, and you're right, and i agree with what you're saying, but chris rock did not say that.

@dannym3141

(Our quotewall is getting ridiculous)

I do think that is his point, though. He's using the word "progress" because that's the word that's commonly used. People say blacks have made great progress in equality and civil rights. He says no, white people have.

He's not saying there's been no progress.

@xxovercastxx if he meant change, he needed to say change. If he meant "people who use the word progress to mean change", that's what he needed to say. He said progress, and progress is the correct word to use in relation to the change in attitudes towards equality from 1920 to now.

I'm sorry, but i did say that originally!

If i said "society has taken a turn for the more intelligent in great britain - going from a largely religious population to a largely non-religious population." That would be wrong, because it implies that the original situation (belief) is not intelligent.

If i said "society has progressed from largely religious to largely non religious," it would be right.

It's the same here, he uses the wrong word and invalidates his own argument. When he says the equivalent of "progress implies that the original situation wasn't crazy!" He's completely wrong. There's people out there saying "black society has progressed to be less segregated," and they're in the right to say that, and yet he's insinuating that they're being irrational when it's really him being irrational.

He's accusing people of being crazy for saying "progress" when actually he hasn't understood the word "progress" correctly. Now he's wrongly 'attacking' people for saying progress, a word which he doesn't understand, he's saying THEY are at fault when HE is at fault.

Would you defend me if i mistook the word "beautiful" to mean "repulsive" and told you to go to hell for calling me beautiful? No, you'd tell me i misunderstood the word. It's an extreme example, but that's the best i can do to explain it.

I'm getting worried that this is becoming hard to follow.

I despise collectivist talk. Your race doesn't define you any more than your sexual inclination. When people say "Black people are like this..." or "White people are all like that..." it makes me think of communal behavior in primates.

"He's not part of our tribe so he's different and therefore something to fear."

@dannym3141

I don't think he's disagreeing with the use of the word progress and I think you're missing his point because you're hung up on it.

He's disagreeing with saying blacks have made progress when it's actually whites.

But I'm gonna leave it at that because I don't think either of us is going to make our arguments any clearer than they already are. Either one or both of us doesn't understand the other, or we just plain disagree on it.

@xxovercastxx fair enough, but i'm not going to.

He says "progress implies that what came before wasn't crazy" - that is obviously a false statement.

From that, his assessment of people using the word progress must also be wrong. I don't think these things are disputable........it's very *deep breath* black and white!

Just because he's gotten more comfortable doesn't mean others have become less shitty.

Oh, no worries danny, I'd be worried if you weren't being contrary

@dannym3141

Okay, my turn. He doesn't say what you said, anywhere. If you can find me the timestamp to start watching from, where I can hear him say that, tell me, but I can't find it. In fact, he says, "You can say it's progress," showing that he knows the meaning of the word, and understands how it could be applied. The difference is that progress emphasizes the wrong part of the situation. Progress implies action, or change on the part of that which progresses. Saying "Black people have made progress." Implies that black people have changed. They haven't. The world changed around them. You wouldn't say "the prisoner progressed from incarceration to freedom." You'd say, "the prisoner was released from jail." You would imply that the prisoner really had no say in the situation, and action on the part of someone else freed him.

Likewise (he is saying), you shouldn't say that "the persecuted progressed from being persecuted to not being persecuted." You should say, "the persecutors got less crazy." His problem with the word progress is that it implies that the world hasn't necessarily changed, but black people have. That totally ignores just how crazy the world was compared to now. It may be correct in some vague sense (which is why he says you can say that), but it is certainly not a complete description of the situation (doing so acts like the shit that came before wasn't totally crazy). You might say, "the world progressed into a world in which black people were not persecuted," or even, "white people progressed towards sanity," but not, "black people finally got it right, so the totally status quo world stopped giving them shit."

Wtf? He says it's not "progress" but then a few moments later characterizes it as a "progression".

D'oh?

Do atheists commit crimes all out of proportion to their percentage of the population?


>> ^poolcleaner:

"No Christians anywhere on earth have it better than American Christians." Does that mean you can't complain about American atheists and agnostics?

@bmacs27

No problem there, go to timestamp 0.38, his exact words;
"You know you can say there's progress and all of this, but when you say it's progress you're acting like....what happened before wasn't crazy..."

That's not true - the word progress does not imply that the situation we have progressed from was rational. If you use the word that way, you are using it incorrectly. If chris rock accuses someone who says "progress" of implying that the original situation was rational, he is wrong.

That was my entire point, and i think we're done here?

Edit:
Additional, i continued to read your message even after i'd disproved you in the first sentence:
If you said to me "black people have progressed", then i would ask you what they've progressed with. Genuinely, i'm not trolling or bending the facts, i would immediately ask that question because it needs context. If you said "racial integration has progressed", i'd ask you what country, and if you said "racial integration in america has progressed", i'd agree.

Perhaps i am in a minority in that i use language as correctly as i am able, but i refuse to be tarred with the same brush. I wouldn't say "black people have progressed" because to me it appears incomplete, i need to know the context of that progression. You may not believe me, but i don't care - i'm using and hearing the word "progression" on a daily basis about the movement of the sun, stars, etc. I'm pretty sure my lecturers are not implying that the sun's starting point "wasn't crazy."

@dannym3141

Not done yet. The problem is your interpretation of that sentence at 0.38. He isn't saying that the word "progress" implies under all circumstances that the previous situation wasn't crazy. Instead he is implying that in its usual usage in this context "Black people have made progress," you are implying that black people deserved segregation, persecution or what have you. I would support my claim that this was his meaning by his words at timestamp 1.14: "To say black people have made progress would mean we deserved to be segregated... 1.33 My father didn't suddenly deserve to eat with people because he earned it. The people that were denying him his rights got less crazy, and THAT (emphasis mine) is what has been progressively happening throughout the years." That is, black people didn't alter their behavior so much as the white people around them. It's not a misunderstanding of the term progress. That's my point.

>> ^bmacs27:
I don't know. White people (particularly WASPy white folks) have it pretty good wherever they go. You see the difference is, in most of those situations, white people moved seeking a better life (much like your favorite soon to be not "minority" from the south). That wasn't so much the case with black people. For the most part they moved because white people, and really just rich white people, were crazy.


No. They came because African tribes sold their own, Spainards delivered them, white people used them, most nations (Rome, Greece, etc.) before America used slaves and led the way, and a million other reasons.

And they're still "practicing" slavery in CRAZY North Africa. Slavery is a worldwide phenom that was practiced for thousands of years. Every race has at one time or another been slaves. Blacks should not feel singled out for persecution.

>> ^Lawdeedaw:
No. They came because African tribes sold their own, Spainards delivered them, white people used them, most nations (Rome, Greece, etc.) before America used slaves and led the way, and a million other reasons.

I think many of the comments on this thread belie Chris Rock's assertions, re: white folks and craziness.

@bmacs27 Fair enough, that's what you think - i disagree with that. When he qualifies it (your quote), he's right. When he doesn't (my quote), he's wrong. You haven't convinced me that he understands what the word means, you've rather convinced me that he just doesn't know, hence he uses it wrongly and correctly at various points. Again, if he means it differently, he should say that. When i hear someone say "when you say progress it implies what came before wasn't crazy", i immediately hear a buzzer sound and he's lost my support. Personally i think if he understood the word correctly he'd have added a "most of the time" in there.

Both you and overcast have done a good job of translating what he said into something more reasonable - i think he should have done that himself. But if you think my quote (which is wrong) is qualified by your quote (which is right), fair enough - we just disagree and it happens.

Chris Rock and other's here seem to be doing exactly what should be avoided. Segregating who's responsible for said "progress". It's a joint effort people.