I'm not saying that any of what you had to go through isn't just wrong, but wouldn't you agree that as far as problems go, that's a pretty good one to have?

And can you really expect people to show sympathy for people that complain about their good fortune?

I mean... it sure beats the hell out of poverty or terminal cancer.

Sorry, last one - would you rather be ugly?

I was born with a genetic deformity that renders me generally "Ugly" to most of the population. It's impossible to miss and it's so glaring and "ugly" to some people that I've been compared to a bug, told I was "gross" and had (quite a few) people tell me they could not imagine me ever getting laid. I still get asked "where's your friend, you know THE GOOD-LOOKING one?" when I go out alone. Because most of my friends happen to be strikingly good-looking whereas I am strikingly ugly. Nice to be reminded every time I'm out. *eye roll*

Yet every single thing you listed as a problem of being pretty was a problem I had (or the flipside of it)

The biggest difference between us in this arena would be that you knew you were pretty and don't tell me there weren't benefits to being pretty - if there are benefits to being consider hideous I am unsure as to what they are. Do you think I didn't occasionally wonder if my friends were really my friends or if they merely hung around me to look good by comparison? (friendship based on looks) Do you think I didn't have a hard time getting men to treat me like a female but not a (desperate) whore? Do you think I never intimidated a man by being so impossible to ignore? Do you think I didn't run into extremely embittered men who made it clear that I was oh-so-lucky to be female because EVEN THOUGH i was ugly as could be I could still get laid but they couldn't?

I understand every point you make - yeah it sucks to be FEMALE in our culture. Any female. And it especially sucks to be physically difficult to ignore - whether that's because of beauty, ugliness or deformity or whatever. However, being all those things because you are beautiful has upsides that the rest of us noticeable people didn't get. Be happy. I'm happy for my very beautiful friends and they are happy I am me. Id' suppose the only real benefit I guess I had was that I always knew how important it was to be beautiful on the inside; I suppose gorgeous people might not grok that so easily.

Strangely I found the total reverse with my dealings with hot women back in Uni, they knew they were hot and thus would leverage that as an advantage, everything from trying to get free drinks at the bar to throwing their name on a research paper a group of us would spend weeks on. Talking to them was simply grating as they would also assume that because they are good looking that you were instantly interested in one thing one from the outset, basically getting into their knickers. I would see the change happening almost instantly if you tried to engage them in a meaningful conversation, the sudden stand off, the glaze in the eyes of "Ohh you want me?". If you failed to respond in the appropriate way i.e. submission to their desires, they would get all needy and annoying, eventually thinking I was weird, anti-social or basically an asshole. Of course this was not the case all the time, but close to 60% to 70% of the interactions I used to have. Oh my god the worst was girls trying to score weed off me.

Maybe I was a prude or it had something to do with growing up in an Islamic society, but basically I resented being treated in that way, I was expected to capitulated to their whims and desires, be at their beckoned call (usage of possible close contact, time alone, and or emotional blackmailing were always used). I saw this being used to great affect by my ex, who would playfully flirt with everyone as a way of being 'friendly', I told her early on that men don't read that as being friendly like they would back in our high school in Kuwait, it's different, being overly friendly with testosterone fueled men in college leads to one place in their minds. She told me I was being silly and they were all her friends, right up to the point that they started hitting her full force, asking her out on dates and basically assassinating my character behind my back as a way of winning her over.

Alot of what you mention seems to stem from being in such a environment in your life, but have you thought that your good looks were also intimidating to such a degree people would find it hard to communicate with you? I believe essentially both sexes are to blame, but I doubt you will find many good looking guys or girls really lamenting on the plight that their good looks have created. The prejudice goes both ways.

Needless to say I think being an adolescent is always a hard phase to go through in general, for everyone.

To the 'ugly' (I don't like these terms) their perceived problems from their ugliness far outweigh the problems the 'beautiful' people suffer for their beauty, and the benefits the beautiful people garnered are nonexistant to the ugly.

It's hard to have sympathy for someone with a cold when you've got syphilis.

I'm not implying there aren't problems for the 'beautiful' people, or that it's tougher or easier (I'll stick to case-by-case), I just think the lack of sympathy is attributed to a difference in perceived magnitude of problem(s).

Addressing MG, and berticus's points, I dont think its meaningful to to compare/contrast problems (your own, or other peoples) on some scale, where by some are perceived as "better/worse" to have than others.

I say this form the perspective of having just lost a year of my life to treatment from cancer (thankfully not terminal, but hence my feeling it relevant to MGs point).

Basically, most humans are utterly shit most of the time to most other humans, especially during adolescence (as Farhad2000 mentioned) but the experiences that we go through, especially the negative ones, have a massive impact on who we are as people. We all like, and seek, to be understood. When the down sides to a particular condition/situation, are unacknowledged/misunderstood, or whatever, then their significance to the person effected, is utterly ignored, and it that way, it is the person effect that is devalued, not the condition/situation/circumstance.

I say again, when seeking to understand and relate to a person, it is "their" feelings/perception to the condition/situation/circumstance that are relevant, and not some "scale by which sufferings are ranked". No such scale has any meaning in any way to anything.

I am not some morally better person, or more significant person, for having experienced cancer.

Also, i emphasized "their" because two people put through the same sequence of events will come away form it with very different feelings/perceptions/views. Which aspects were most significant, will vary from one person to another. thus, no scale of moral "significance" of condition/situation/circumstance can be applied when trying to decided how important said condition/situation/circumstance is, or should be, to either you or them.

I value, and appreciate, both the video linked, and oxdottir personal experiences, because it is helpful to me to learn more about other peoples lives, and their experiences, so that I can relate and understand them better. For that reason, I also value learning about smibbo's experiences. The value, to me, in both cases, is how it helps me to understand them better as individuals, and also, to broaden my awareness of life experiences, and reactions too them, so that I might better understand other people who's experiences have been similar to theirs.

For this reason, learning about an experience far from my own (I'm male and unattractive, so both oxdottir and smibbo's experience are helpful to me to learn from). However, I'd think that the experiences of the video, are most unfamiliar to me.

I say again, placing experiences on some moral scale of suffering/value is utterly utterly meaningless. Its only purpose serves to devalue the personal experiences/feelings, and importance placed on it by the person who experienced it, and thereby, to devalue them, and their sense of identity.

With that in mind, i consider it a BAD thing to do.

Yes, theres lots of evil and suffering in the world, starvation/war/famine/rape/murder/poverty, the list can seem endless, but that in noway devalues the experiences of anyone. Human beings are not made more, or less, significant by their exposure to evil.

If you learned about how my experience of cancer effected me, that might enlighten you both in regards to myself, and to one of the many possible ways cancer can effect a person. It would not give you a way to place "cancer", terminal or otherwise, on some scale of meaning.

The reality of humans being shit to humans, is that, when one condition/situation, has clear negatives in how we treat each other, its polar opposite can be perceived to be free of all such negatives, when instead, humans being universally as shit to each other as they are, they often just get replaced by other negatives in our behavior.

I apologies for ranting, but as i found the vid enlightening as regards something i have no experience of, and a condition i have had used as a reason to devalue its significance and thus the significance of others, it got my goat.

I don't have time for well-thought out comments, but a few things. I'm wasn't actually beautiful--I was locally beautiful. And yes, there are way worse problems in the world than I experienced. And yes, I've seen beautiful people manipulate others inappropriately. And I think I wish I had kept my mouth shut about my own experiences, or confined my comments to the video, where I expect snappy comebacks instead of the blogs, where I thought it was more community oriented.



But mostly, I just wanted to thank Thylan.

Thylan, oxdottir

I wasn't trying to devalue anyone's experience/make a snappy comeback. All I was saying is that I personally find it hard to feel sympathy for people that have a 'problem' that on the grand scheme of things isn't that bad.
Oxdittir, there's no reason anyone should have to go through what you did, and I do feel bad for you because of your experiences, but when I think about people I know and some of the problems I've had, I just sit there and think "that's a problem I wouldn't mind having."

Re: but when I think about people I know and some of the problems I've had, I just sit there and think "that's a problem I wouldn't mind having."

But if you hadn't had the problems you have had, and instead, had had similar experiences to Oxdittir, they might be as meaningful to you, as they were for her. Not would, "might". Your personal response to those situations would be personal to you and not a carbon copy of anyone else's.

As it is, it may not be an experience you can relate too. Note, i didn't say "sympathize", but relate. You do not to "feel sorry" to understand someone else. And fundamentally, that is what was being shared by the vid and Oxdittir, their experiences. Understanding, and sympathy, are not the same.

The phrase "walk a mile in someone else's shoes" is about understanding others, not feeling sorry for them.

You weren't being asked to find those situations personally meaningfully to you, but to understand, and respect, that they ARE meaningful and important to the people who DID experience them.

Emphasizing a lack of sympathy, as though that had been the point of their sharing their feelings/experiences, both misses the point, and devalues their experience.

Asking as you did "would you rather be ugly?" fundamentally misses the point, and undermines the value of the expressed feelings etc, by the implied idea that:
Were the situation reversed, you would feel worse, .'., knowing that, you should not feel bad about things as they are.

See how that devalues the feelings of Oxdittir and those in the vid, intentionaly or otherwhise?

Also, its a meaningless question, as at no point, did anyone in the video, or in Oxdittir post, state or imply that females seen as plain or unatractive have it easy (females are often treated like shit by everyone, male or female, by our culture).

Showing that people get treated badly by others, in a manner unacknowledged or recognized by our culture, is valuable to have shared.

Stating that "you should feel happy because i have more reason to feel unhappy than you" is a meaningless philosophical idea.

Stating that "I do not feel sympathy for you" may be true, but to take it further and imply from that ".'. you should not, and have no right too feel bad about the negative experiences you have encountered, or that, those negative experiences are meaningless because worse evil exists" is unkind, and in my view, utterly wrong, as well as highly devaluing.

To my mind, asking "would you rather be ugly?" did exactly that.

I'm sure there are lots of peoples experiences, to which i cannot relate. my life experience is just too limited. Also, there may be lots of experiences which are important to others but which do not generate sympathy for me.

This makes learning about those experiences, and the feelings they can generate for those who did experience them, even MORE meaningful to learn about, so that my understanding of humanity can be increased. Not LESS meaningful, just because either i don't get it, or my heart strings arn't tugged.

Devaluing the experiences and feelings of others is a big personal bugbear for me. It's something that happens a lot.

When I did an engineering degree there was the same kind of male/female ratio in the classes as you talk about, oxy. I really felt sorry for the women; they were constant objects of attention from all directions, and I could see how uncomfortable it made them.

I had a similar kind of experience going to an all-black highschool in Africa — talk about standing out like a beacon! If I ever missed a single school assembly or prayer meeting (it was a mission school), I heard about it immediately, and I had endless assumptions made about me.

On the other hand, it's all part of the human experience, and in my case I would agree with MG that whatever problems I've faced were minor compared to what some people have to go through. I've had a very weird and diverse life but I wouldn't change it for anything!

P.S. Thylan, you're a beautiful soul! *hug

If I may toss in some perspective...

As I already mentioned on Persephone's post regarding this issue, I am not what I would consider 'stunning' or 'gorgeous' (those who love me might say that, but whatever, lets be honest here), but I'm decent looking, and probably, as oxdottir said, "pretty by local standards", I'm thin (a rare commodity these days), my skin is decent, my teeth are straight (thanks to 4 years in braces), and over the years I've figured out how to present myself well (wasn't always this way, in fact, I spent all of adolescence as a kind of a dorky, spindly legged little tomboy who was often covered in dirt with her hair all mussed up, never considered pretty or girlish, so this whole 'being attractive' thing, still strikes me as kind of odd)... so, it could be said that I can go either way, because a lot of it is all based on how much effort I choose to put forth and this has led me to believe that much of what is perceived of as 'beauty' is actually just window dressing... hair, makeup, attitude. The days I choose to not care and just wear my glasses and pull my hair back I can walk down a street and no one will notice me, I could be invisible for all the reaction I get. Next day, I bother with contacts instead of glasses, wear my hair down and find something more flattering to wear, and I get all kinds of looks and even catcalls (depending on the area and number of people)... its weird like that, and as a result, more often then not, I don't bother getting all cleaned up like that, because frankly, I'm a bit shy and prefer to be left alone, I don't always need that ego boost, and as I mentioned on Persephone's thread, dangerous situations can and have arisen as a result.

So, having the perspective of both sides (to some extent) I agree and sympathize with a number of the problems you've outlined, pretty girls are not considered smart, nor taken seriously (usually I manage to shatter this preconception quickly, but still it is there), male professors are sometimes seemingly nervous about being associated with or working with a female student if she is attractive looking (lest rumors circulate), it is hard having female friends (I think I have maybe 3), harder still to be 'one of the guys' because there is always a chance that guys have only befriended me in the hopes that they will get in my pants someday (I too have frequently used the tactic of making sure I always appeared 'taken' or 'involved' with someone in order to insure that a friendship did not wander into that uncomfortable zone where I would have to turn a dear friend down should he try to make a move just because I'm suddenly available- it sucks, but I really hate hurting someone's feelings), and even harder still to get a guy to talk to you, especially one worth talking too as usually only the shallow player types are bold enough to just break the ice, but even that is not good as basically that type of guy will fuck anything that moves (and who wants that anyway?)... and also, when one is considered the prettiest of the lot, its hard to find someone interested in a more than superficial relationship, as many guys go for the attractive girl because they want some sort of trophy, kind of like, "hey, lookee here at my woman, she's a hottie, behold my awesomeness!"... a situation I avoid like the plague because there is always the possibility that someday your boyfriend/husband will decide he needs to upgrade his arm candy and then you're out the door. So fuck that, no thanks.

Also, a lot of what Farhad said about the pretty girls using their looks to get something, or somehow feeling entitled to all kinds of stuff, can also be applied to guys as well, as I've known a good many men who behave this way. They are considered hot and they know it and in a lot of them that brings out the worst behaviors (can't even count how many of these types over the years have tried to get me to do their homework for them or 'help' them with their term papers)... this is ultimately, I suppose, why I am rarely attracted to the 'attractive' type guys, they are too much trouble, and I've found, rarely interesting once you talk to them. I prefer conversation and intelligence any day, because ultimately, if a relationship is to work long term, those things are much more important than if your mate is considered a '10'.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I appreciate the way I look, but I understand both sides of it pretty well and there are pitfalls either way.

Thylan, there's no arguing your base point- I agree with you about valueing people's individual experiences - but you must pay attention to the word "value" itself. If Oxdottir puts up a personal experience for dicussion, I see no reason why everyone elses reaction should be criticized. I don't think a one of us said her experience is not "valid". As to understanding, hell yeah I understand what she's talking about!
but the situation is that we're talking about the downside to something that is universally agreed tobe a positive. It is a matter of scale because the human condition itself - frought with insecurity, instability and anxiety, is, as said, HUMAN. It's as if complaining about having to breathe or go to the bathroom; people certainly understand your complaint because we all share those issues, but you won't get much sympathy, in fact you'll probably get some antipathy from those who truly have unusual negative experiences in that realm (someone with a catheter probably won't appreciate hearing complaints about going to the bathroom)

more than anything, I kind of resent the attitude that because seems to be: if you aren't cooing sympathy and holding hands and singing kumbahyah then you are devaluing someone's experience. I'm sorry but as oxdottir's experience is valid and worthy of examination, so is someone elses. To hear the privelleged complain is grating to the unprivelleged, but what I'm saying is that if the priveleged want to be heard and validated, they must put their experience in perspective and be respectful of those they are complainin to. As said earlier when the woman says "It makes me feel NOT pretty, really" the response is "you mean like us UNPretty people feel ALL THE TIME?"
Its hard to feel respected when someone's complaint of hardship is your everyday life. It feels extremely invalidating, in fact. If you want to be validated for your hardship, do acknowledge the contextural perspective of what you describe. Validation won't come if you devalue others with your very statement.

and so far as the vid goes, when you film someone crying over an experience, that is seen as asking for sympathy. as said before just about everyone understands the hardships described because they are part of being female, being human, but second-class citizens don't take kindly to being told to feel sorry for the elite

I'm in complete agreement with you Thylan. It isn't meaningful to contrast problems on a scale because the perception of pain is subjective. In saying that, people will do it anyway. I don't think it can be avoided. Also, I wasn't expounding my own feelings, just trying to rationalise others.

as a friend once said to me: I understand there's a downside to having it good but when someone has it good the least they could do is acknowledge that instead of acting like the downside is something to really cry over... after all, most of us don't have it good to begin with, but we all have the downside.

This is not going to be an easy post for me to make, because I have never really talked about this stuff with anyone before ever.
Like Thylan, I am a survivor of cancer, although I was much younger (three years old) when I had it. Possibly as a result, it was never conclusive, I also suffered from Kidney failure. As a result I will never be 100% healthy again in my life. Overall this has made me a fairly bitter and unhappy individual, which is when I watched the video KP posted I reacted negatively. I do consider the problems those in the video experienced to be rather insignificant in the scheme of things. It's very easy to say suffering is subjective, but my knee-jerk reaction is not sympathy it's apathy, and it's not a reaction I reject. It's hard for me to feel sympathy for the occasional negative experience in an overall happy life when my life is in such contrast.
However I would never use my life experience to be an arsehole to anyone. If anything it's taught me to be tolerant and understanding of suffering. Empathy is an extremely important quality to me. And I do find the negative experiences of women upsetting. I have two younger sisters, both of whom are gorgeous, and both have experiences negative attention from men. The worst of which was when a man once approached my sister at a bus stop and tried to get her to go home with him, when she was 15. She ran home in tears and stayed home from school. So I have seen first had the affect of negative attention.
Both of them are very academically gifted and are looking forward to University, but I've never heard either describe their good looks as a hindrance to any kind of academic success, in fact thy both have the same self-esteem and body issues ALL teenagers have.
As a older university student I am surrounded by younger better looking individuals, in fact in most of my classes the women outnumber the men now, so it certainly isn't as big a problem as it used to be.

If this has seemed muddled I apologise. This is a difficult issue for me to discuss. But my overall feeling is that everyone has negative experiences to varying degrees and everyone has a right to complain about them. But by the same token I reserve the right to feel those complaints are trivial.
I am definitely not saying that the experiences in this thread are trivial, quite the opposite. But I don't think a persons looks should be held responsible. Standards of beauty change over time and society (in particular the media) puts unrealistic expectations on how we are supposed to react to it. Because of the way women are portrayed many men feel it's ok to act like a total prick and ALL women will get attention from these men at some time or another.
Watching the video again, the people in it don't complain about any problem coming close to what has been described in this topic and by Persephone in her entry. So they're worried that some people may have negative opinions of them based on a first impression of them being attractive? Something makes me think they haven't given a lot of thought to the alternative. Empathy again being the key issue. The Buddha taught that life is suffereing, and suffering is caused by desire. What do the people in the video desire? to have people treat them with respect and friendship regardless of their physical appearance?
This is something we all want, I don't see what makes them so special.

Thanks for that discussion folks

I'm glad you shared, oxdottir. Please don't stop! I can't believe your fellow classmates made a pool to see how long it would take you to flunk. That's some pretty serious old boy's club there. And the guy who had your picture pasted onto a Playboy body, in your sight, what a complete arsehole!!! You're one amazing woman to have put up with that crap.

All I have to say is this. Beauty is largely in the eye of the beholder. I've met girls that could snap the necks of almost any guy, until you hear them open their mouths. I've seen women who are loved and cherished dearly but have no physical beauty to desire, yet once I get to know them they transform into georgeous people.

My wife gets better looking everyday. And it's only because of the kind of person she makes me want to become. The more I learn about her, and the intimate moments we share help to transform her into the most beautiful creature the world has seen.

If you want true beauty you need to see people as they truly are. Not as they appear next to the cover of a magazine.

wow gorgonheap... that was, well, beautiful.

Well, that didn't work. I just wish this wasn't at the top of my blog listing, cuz I'm over it and hope others are too.