Ta-Nehisi Coates had a good piece about the flag the other day:

The meaning of the Confederate flag is best discerned in the words of those who bore it

Might be interesting to compare and contrast how we in the US have handled our laundry list of "bad things we've done in the past" compared to, say, Germany.

I know that the Nazi flag and other imagery are outright banned / censored in Germany. From what I understand, WW2 history taught in schools in Germany is handled very carefully, if not largely glossed over.

In the US, the only bit of history that gets treatment similar to that (in my experience/opinion) is the Vietnam war. I know my High School history classes definitely glossed over it and didn't want to get into any details about why, how, or whether or not we should have been in the war at all.

Compare that to WW2, which was covered in pretty great detail. Very much including actively encouraging students to consider their own thoughts on controversial things like dropping not just one but two atomic bombs on Japan.

The Civil War is also covered much more openly and honestly. I don't think I can recall anyone ever seriously suggesting that the single, most important root cause of the Civil War wasn't slavery. Other umbrella labels like "states rights" might be referred to as the impetus, but yes, any and all of those things really boil down to slavery.



One thing that scares me about the German approach (sweep under the rug and don't talk about it) is that it sort of all too conveniently ignores the reality that these terrible things were done by people who were (disturbingly) not very different from us. OK, Hitler himself might have been a 1 in a million or 1 in a billion combination of evil, crazy, and powerful. But Joe Average from today ... not so different from Hans Average from 1930s Germany.

Celebrating one's heritage and past is OK, sometimes even good. Especially when one can honestly own and try to understand the bad along with the good. I think it is OK to appreciate the Confederate flag, along with historical figures like Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson. It is possible to accept that their core motivations were done in support of a very bad and evil institution (slavery), but to still respect or even admire their accomplishments as human beings. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves too, but we are willing to look beyond that when considering his legacy.

Maybe the Confederate flag is tied too closely to the institution of slavery for it ever to be uncoupled from that. Maybe a government that prides itself on being democratic should consider that that connection creates a conflict with many of its constituents. But I hope we never sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened.

@bobknight33 & @lantern53

http://www.reddit.com/r/usa/comments/3affpx/aggrieved_white_man_syndrome/

I dont know of any country other than Germany or Austria were the term "never again" is given that monumental weight in education.. saying that ww2 is largely glossed over in shools is so wrong it actually hurts...

Japan tries to hide their breast mutilating, savage raping, mindless torturing of Chinese. In all honesty, if the Chinese government invaded, then murdered every politician and news venue that opposed teaching the true savagery of Japan's recent past, that would be 110% justified. In fact, it would be moral--since Japan is trying to sweep it under the rug in some morbid attempt to feel better.

And you question is what?

You think I feel like i have Aggrieved White Man Syndrome (AWMS)?

What is your question?

*controversy

Adding video to channels (Controversy) - requested by MrFisk.

I sincerely apologize for my ignorance, and thank you for setting the record straight. (really)

My incorrect understanding of that (education about the war in Germany) came from about 40% being presented with bad information (or interpreting information incorrectly), and 60% drawing the wrong conclusions based on the censorship of Nazi imagery there.

Before commenting, I did quick web research to support the information I had heard about the censorship side of things there. When that basically confirmed what I thought, I neglected to do the same due diligence with regards to how the war is taught in schools.

...Pretty shitty on my part, especially considering that my opener in my previous comment was that it would be "interesting" to compare how education handles history in both countries, and then apparently I wasn't actually interested enough to actually fact-check.

So again, I apologize.

With regards to the issues in the Daily Show video, ie. the Confederate flag, I think it is probably reasonable to say that in my opinion it would be a good idea to remove the flag from use for Government / State purposes. The way Germany handles Nazi imagery goes beyond that. I'm not sure that I would agree with that extent of what amounts to censorship in handling it, but that is just my opinion.

So I guess in summary, it really *is* interesting to consider both countries approaches to handling uncomfortable bits of our past. I just should have actually done it properly when I said it the first time.

You DO have Aggrieved White Man Syndrome/White Fragility.

Tho figured you'd understand it better if you heard it from another white man.

Just food for thought. You know, meditation material.

Critically thinking curriculum.

I don't fear the black, yellow or other taking my job because of race? I don't freaking care. May the best candidate get the job. I have had many jobs in my life and would find another if I needed to.

Do you think I would hire a black? not in a million years? You would be wrong at that. I had 1 opportunity to hire 1 candidate. I picked the best educated person that would fit the job and he was a black man.

You think my wife and kids are Lilly white. You would be wrong at that also. My family is so mixed that I am the lone token white.

You have any other falsehoods you wish to inquire about? Go ahead I answer them too.

Bottom line I don't care what "you" are. All I care is that you are trying to get ahead in life and that you are a peaceful neighbor.

I have little sympathy for those who desire to stay at the bottom out of convenience, leaching off our tax dollars and blaming others for their misfortune. I not bitching about those given a shitty hand in life or those needing a helping hand. We all need a helping hand at times. But not decade after decade. The nation spends about 3% on social needs, Fine make it 5% or something. Just don't waste it on looses and government bureaucracy.

You would probably make a fine neighbor and work colleague.

You asked me once how old I was and I answer 53. So out of curiosity how old are you?

Bob,

You and I agree on very little, but I think we stand united on this one: when are those motherfucking crackers in Appalachia gonna get their shit together, get off the meth, and make something out of themselves? Damn, it felt good to say that!

Actually, Japanese kids learn about Unit 731, the rape of Nanking, and the issue of "comfort women" (though they are still not called by their proper term "sex slaves"). See here for more info.

What is controversial is that the right-wingers managed to get a textbook approved by the Ministry of Education that whitewashes Japan's military past--a textbook, by the way, that was shunned by almost every Board of Education in Japan (it was used by only 0.039% of the schools in Japan).

The notion that Japanese people are unaware of the crimes committed by the Japanese military during WWII is utterly false. As I mentioned, there are revisionist right-wingers out there who are actively working to change that but so far they have been unsuccessful.

@MilkmanDan

I am an outspoken critic of my country (and my government in particular) in a million different ways, but the way our educational system deals with the years of 1933-1945 (by extension, 1914-1945) is praiseworthy when compared to how other nations deal with the atrocities they committed. Sure enough, it still leaves room for improvement, but overall, it's nothing to be ashamed of.

One positive aspect of it can be seen these days in the public reaction to what has been going on in Ukraine. The west is supporting marauding Nazi militias, which should be an absolute no-go under any circumstances, especially for us. So I was quite happy to see some public outrage against it, even though it should have been a lot more.

Thank you for that great response.. Its really rare to see people on the internet come back at you with something else than pure rage...

That was pretty informative too (thx for that)

Of course most Japanese are taught that. Who the fuck said otherwise? Oh, by hiding their history you thought I meant they didn't learn about it at all? Well that's a stupid assumption. You know back in the 1960s Americans "learned" about slavery and our part in it, yet it was often prefaced by "those Negros are inferior so it was great times" or "it was really about federal expansion and not those Negros who should know their place." "Misrepresentation" is a hell of a concept.

And I wasn't even speaking about WW2, so where you got that from I have no utter clue? I didn't even hint at it. That rape and mutilation has been going on for centuries but was significant in the Second Sino-Japanese War, a distinct war in and of itself.

I guess what really pisses me off is that Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, elected by Japan (not just one side, but everyone, from the Emperor to the Diet, who themselves are elected by THE PEOPLE) is a revisionist who is allowed to say his shit by the people of Japan. This isn't a position that is allowed in the civilized world anymore. Fuck, even Iran's Ahmadinejad denied the Holocaust and had to laugh it off as misspeaking. Abe is so flaunting he even visited Yasukuni Shrine, a place that holds more than 1 thousand war criminals in it.

Imagine a German leader going to a memorial for 1 thousand Nazi heroes, perhaps including Hitler himself? Oh, and the fact that those criminals were accepted after their punishments, is terrifying.

Notice something else. I never said that China has the right to slaughter everyone--which gives plenty of pre-acknowledgement to your point that this hateful revisionism is put out by right-wingers (And condoned by all the cowards on the left.) This is because, much as Germans on the left allowed the slaughter of the Jews, most cannot be held directly responsible for a force greater than them. In this case, there is no force greater, but that is beside the point.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/03/opinion/mr-abes-dangerous-revisionism.html?_r=0

@Lawdeedaw

There's so much factually wrong here, I don't know where to begin. Let's start with this:

"That rape and mutilation has been going on for centuries but was significant in the Second Sino-Japanese War, a distinct war in and of itself."

Japan was in a state of almost complete isolation from the rest of the world between the years of 1633 and 1853. Even after the period of isolation ended, Japan was too busy for decades industrializing to be rampaging through China, as you suggest.

Japan DID eventually get involved in Chinese politics and in fact went to war with them in the First Sino-Japanese War... in 1894. There are no reports of atrocities committed by the Japanese military during this conflict. In fact, quite the opposite, Japan would release Chinese prisoners of war once they promised not to take up arms against Japan again.

The subjugation of Taiwan (which was ceded to Japan at the end of the first Sino-Japanese War but resisted Japanese rule) is a different story. However, accounts of what exactly happened are sketchy and most of the information we have is anecdotal. What can be gleaned from these anecdotes is that the Formasians put up a fierce guerrilla resistance campaign and that the Japanese tortured and killed anyone suspected of aiding the resistance. Still, it doesn't appear to have been on the same scale as the massacres which occurred during the Rape of Nanking.

As you mentioned, some of the most awful abuses were done during the Second Sino-Japanese War between 1937 and 1945 (the Rape of nanking occurred during this war). The abuse ended Japan's defeat in WWII.

What you can see here by doing the math, is that Japan's military abuses in China lasted a grand total of 50 years--from the subjugation of Formosa (Taiwan) to the end of World War 2--not "centuries."

Next, let's talk about misrepresentation. You seem to be implying that Japanese textbooks don't say that Japan is the aggressor in WW2 (or previous conflicts). As I pointed out in my last post, that is flat-out wrong. There is ONE textbook that was approved for use that whitewashes the history but that book has been ignored an not used by the vast majority of schools in Japan.

If you want to criticize Japanese textbooks, you could criticize them on the grounds that though they mention the terrible things that Japanese forces did, they don't go into a whole lot of detail. See this article for more information.

As far as Abe goes, what exactly has he said that is so terrible? Yes, he hangs out with revisionists. Yes, he has expressed his opinion that Japan should stop apologizing for WWII and start looking to the future instead of the past. Yes, he has said that the issue of "comfort women" should be re-examined in light of claims that some of evidence of their existence was fabricated. But these are not really radical statements by any means. And many people and newspapers do strongly and openly disagree with his statements, so this idea that Japanese people don't challenge him is completely wrong as well.

Yasukuni is a total clusterfuck of a situation. It is a shrine to ALL of Japan's war dead. This includes war criminals, but it also includes regular soldiers just doing their duty. In terms of Shinto beliefs, all of their souls now reside there. Basically, if you want to pay your respects to someone who died in military service in Japan, you have to go there to "see them."

Abe is a total dumbass (and the press let him know it) for going there because he knows already how China and Korea will perceive it, but on the other hand his going there does not mean in any way that he reveres the war criminals who are interred there. I have no idea what his personal views are but publically he has stated that he and his wife go there to remind themselves about the terrible toll war had on Japan the last time Japan engaged in it.

Finally, as for the link you provided, it was to a year-old opinion piece that lacks context. Abe made that statement at a time when it was revealed that some of the evidence of the existence of comfort women in Japan had been faked. It was later decided that the apology would not be changed. In fact, The Japan Times is reporting that it is likely that Abe will mention that "comfort women" had their human rights violated by Japan in his upcoming address on the end of WWII, so the comparison of him to Ahmadinejad is a bit far-fetched.