My editing skills for the paragraph I HAD wrote sucked balls. More or less the above should read that I wanna know what others think of this matter ? Its somewhat like the guy who cant wear his Sikh knife to school etc. etc.

Hard call for me. I'm all for tolerance, but I do remember a college professor forcing all of the guys to take off their ball caps in his class.

I also can't stand fundamentalist religions of any sort, especially the type that subjugates women, which I believe Islam does with these sorts of dress codes.

I'll also say that in western cultures, the concealment of the face is usually associated with criminal activity.

I kind of think...if a person wants to live their lives in such a backwards manner, how can they really expect to be treated otherwise in a modern, western, 21st century world?

I mean, fuck! A couple of Britons are going to jail in Dubai (I think) for kissing in public. Given that kind of social intolerance, I'm not going to get all worked up about this one just yet.

I find this to be a truly interesting debate.

Now, I'd like to mention I find this to be a really weak piece by TyT. I don't like the dude in this vid, he's clearly a douche. He spends over 1:30 talking about the French lady when she doesn't have anything to do with the issue. I like the other guy that appears in TyT vids and woud've liked to get his take. But w/e. I also find that for such a divisive, complicated and debatable issue they really seem to be chewing around the fat.

I am from and live in Montreal, btw I'm not French Canadian don't downvote so quick , and this issue seems to arise a lot over here. I'd like to know the rules and the reactions to muslims' very different cultural and religious traditions in the rest of North America.

For me I really think we can put aside issues of social and religious tolerance. We can put aside our(mostly) collective disdain for religious fundamentalists. Let's also put aside our apprehensiveness of archaic, outdated, and even sometimes absurd traditions. We can even put aside the fact that the government ought not have any say in it's citizens' dress.

At the end of the day I truly believe it should be my right, and an institutions right, to refuse service to any individual who refuses to show me their face.

Unless I'm running a hot dog stand on St. Catherine in the middle of winter and it's -30°c It's still Canada...

"I think wearing those things are right stupid and degrades the person wearing it. whatever its intent is ; its ridiculous."

I feel the same way about nose piercings, but I see no reason to force everyone to live to -my- standards.

To be consistent, if you support institutions forcing people to remove certain clothing, you also must support outlawing color combinations worn by gangs, and outlawing the wearing of sagging pants that is so popular among the wannabee gangstas today. Are you ready to allow colleges to outlaw wearing red & black outfits?

How enlightening it is to hear two people opine who have NO IDEA what they're talking about.

"I have never heard the niqab until now" "Me neither"

"Cleric, for lack of a better word"

This is a dirty, cheap argument and people like you who make such arguments, are what holds back progress in this world.

I could make the claim that eating dogs shouldn't be illegal because, well, what's stopping someone who really likes chickens from putting forth a motion to ban eating chicken based on the same arguments against eating dogs. It's not the same fucking thing. That's what.

Let's keep going. Why the fuck is it illegal to walk away from my dogs shit without picking it up, but he can piss wherever he please! Wtf is this bullshit? Both are excremental. It's time people start carrying around a bucket of soapy water and a sponge because, god willing, I WON'T STAND FOR THIS INCONSISTENCY.

Okay just one more in case you actually are dumb, and aren't just a self-serving sophist pig. It's illegal to carry a concealed machete in the streets. Well wait, hold on! Why's it illegal to conceal a machete up your sleeve while strolling in the streets but I can carry a mag lite? Both are tools.

HEY GOVERNMENT! YOU BETTER BE CONSISTENT HERE, IF YOU'RE GOING TO BAN A TOOL, YOU'D BETTER BAN ALL TOOLS.

In fact mods, let's start by banning this tool.

tl;dr Nose piercings and saggie pants serve completely different purposed from the niqab.
>> ^Stormsinger:
"I think wearing those things are right stupid and degrades the person wearing it. whatever its intent is ; its ridiculous."
I feel the same way about nose piercings, but I see no reason to force everyone to live to -my- standards.
To be consistent, if you support institutions forcing people to remove certain clothing, you also must support outlawing color combinations worn by gangs, and outlawing the wearing of sagging pants that is so popular among the wannabee gangstas today. Are you ready to allow colleges to outlaw wearing red & black outfits?

Over-react much?

Banning those headdresses won't solve anything in my opinion. It will more likely result in the particular muslim population whose beliefs require them to wear niqabs not going to french language classes, not learning the language and not being able or willing to integrate into society.
"Fine", you might say; "Let them isolate themselves, what do we care?". That sentiment is fine and good when rhetorically passing out blame, but this is a society. Like it or not, these people are a part of it. Our situations are linked, and when they start isolating themselves it will lead to more problems, bigger problems, down the road. Suspicion, frustration, preconceptions and fear have historically been the consequence of separating groups of people in a community.

Now, we don't know the entire story. They might have banned all religious artifacts in class at that university. They might have banned the use of all headwear indoors. If either or both of those scenarios are correct, then there should be no question that the wearing of a niqab is prohibited on campus. However, if this is just some arbitrary rule for this particular article of clothing, then I see no reason why this woman shouldn't raise hell about the injustice being wrought by the institution.

If you outlaw clothes, then only the outlaws will have clothes.

I don't have an opinion on the matter as:

1. I don't wear a hijab or burqa
2. I'm not Muslim
3. I'm not Christian

My only advice is if you want to wear one, then wear it. But don't do so because a book tells you to, or peer pressure, or because you are expected to.

(pause)

Well, shit, I guess I did have an opinion didn't I?

The niqāb is regarded differently by the various schools of Islamic jurisprudence (madhāhib).[5] The issue has continued to arouse debate between Muslim scholars and jurists both past and present concerning whether it is fard (obligatory), mustahabb (highly recommended), or forbidden for a woman to wear niqāb.[6] Salafi Muslims believe that a woman's awrah in front of unrelated men is her entire body including her face and hands. [7] [8] [9][10] [11][12] [13] [14] [15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niqab

Of course, when Muslims' personal freedoms are violated it's very amusing! let's still be politically correct here and say that she should definitely be allowed to wear it even though it's very silly, tee hee, silly backwards woman with her silly religion. And for all you morons trying to equate this to the wearing of a cap in class or the legitimacy of having someone show his face to whoever's teaching them - are you insane? You'd think she walked into class wearing it as some sort of political statement. When you wear a cap in class you're a douchebag, this is her way, her belief, no one gives a crap about whether you think it is legitimate or not, no one cares if you feel her backwards culture indoctrinated her into a subjugated life style, how is forcing her to remove it any different than forcing her to wear it? And if a teacher is deluded enough to refuse teaching someone who wears religious paraphernalia he/she should not be allowed to teach.

>> ^NinjaInHeat:
... how is forcing her to remove it any different than forcing her to wear it? ...

Exactly. Could not have said it better.

Covering up the entire face regardless of the weather is a pointless practice based on stupid medieval ideas about chastity and temptation. It's far more likely that it's the woman's family imposing it on her rather than it being her choice. Or maybe, once she's been brainwashed enough by her upbringing the imposition is no longer necessary, which is for all intents and purposes the same thing.

However, anything that's going to prevent her from learning the language and assimilating is just going to make the problem worse, so I don't think this ban is practical at all. Would be better to ban homeschooling and ecclesiastical primary schools so that people can't be brainwashed so easily. If you grow up only ever hearing X and never hearing Y or Z you're likely to end up a dogmatic fundamentalist. Public schools always have students with a wide variety of beliefs so that's a good place for students to be. A school full of precisely like-minded students and teachers just towing the line is a terrible place for students to be.

It doesn't matter if you think it's a "pointless practice based on stupid medieval ideas". It's a part of her religion. She has every right to it. And while I agree that no one should have anything forced upon them, in this case it is her choice to wear it, and forcing her to remove it is just as oppressive. You're making stupid assumptions that it's not her choice. Even though you don't agree with religion, you should respect other people and their right to practice their faith peacefully. This bullshit concept of knowing what's best for her is just that, bullshit. It's her life. It's her choice. And who the fuck is anyone to tell someone that they can't wear a piece of clothing? If you want to ban religious garb, start with the yamaka, let me know how that works out.

Hi! This is Maffu's girlfriend...
Just too lazy to make my own account
Ok, here goes... This is what I think:

People are so quick to make these issues into problems surrounding diversity and tolerance. But I truly believe that this not the purpose, although some may adapt the cause or spin it it to meet their own bias. (Perhaps I am too quick to see the world through rose colored glasses )

For example, when the Sikh knife, was banned from schools, it was not to discriminate! It was for public safety! It seemed to make sense to me that individuals were not allowed to bring, what could be perceived as a weapon, in to class.

As with the niqab, it seems to me, that it is more an issue of identity than it is of discrimination. When an individual enters a classroom say, to sit an exam, should we not confirm their identity? What's to stop her sister, who may be better at the subject, from sitting the exam in her place? Same with voting. Should we not confirm the identity of the individual voting before allowing them to enter the ballot booth? Who is to say that this individual will not vote several times, under different names? What then? (We'd have a bunch of Bush's croonies in niqab's finding a new way to sway the vote. That's what! )

If we are willing to reasonably accomadate these individuals, I believe there are compromises we can make. For instance, why not just have a woman confirm her identity? (As this would be perfectly acceptable in Islamic tradition.)

Well, I am done. Sorry for the HUGE post...lol

lmao ..

Hello "maffu"'s girlfriend. This is burdturglers' mom. I'm going to respond to this post because BT is busy taking a dump.

This isn't about a knife. It's about a scarf. As for identity, the school knows full well who the student is, if there was really some concern then all students should wear personally identifiable ID badges outside of their clothing so that everyone at every time can ascertain the identity of everyone. Maybe they should use an eye scanner before someone enters the campus grounds. The onus is on them to provide security and integrity for the schools but that has to be done without sacrificing the freedoms of individuals. You are talking a lot of shit that has nothing to do with the subject. You want to check fingerprints at the ballot box? Great. Has nothing to do with a woman being allowed to wear a scarf over her face for her religion.

Ninjainheat's cat here, here are my 2 cents:

teh ledy is rite! teh bush croony is in your niqab, swayin ur votes

>> ^NinjaInHeat:
Of course, when Muslims' personal freedoms are violated it's very amusing! let's still be politically correct here and say that she should definitely be allowed to wear it even though it's very silly, tee hee, silly backwards woman with her silly religion. And for all you morons trying to equate this to the wearing of a cap in class or the legitimacy of having someone show his face to whoever's teaching them - are you insane? You'd think she walked into class wearing it as some sort of political statement. When you wear a cap in class you're a douchebag, this is her way, her belief, no one gives a crap about whether you think it is legitimate or not, no one cares if you feel her backwards culture indoctrinated her into a subjugated life style, how is forcing her to remove it any different than forcing her to wear it? And if a teacher is deluded enough to refuse teaching someone who wears religious paraphernalia he/she should not be allowed to teach.


Bullshit.

Clothing is clothing, and if the prof is going to tell me to take off my ball cap it's no different than telling her to take off her mask.

And tough shit, too.

People are being imprisoned in Dubai for kissing in public or, most recently, sending sexy text messages to each other.

Muslim or not, she's living in the western world and she may as well learn to live by its customs.

When you move to a country, you live by its rules, so stop bitching about not getting special treatment.

Why does she want to learn French anyway? She's going to live her entire life as a slave to a backwards religion.

You either believe in all of the people's rights or none of them.
Rougy, you're a hypocrite and a bigot as far as I'm concerned. You either hate religion or you hate Muslims. This hatred has blinded you to the truth. That all people have the right to practice their faith (or lack thereof) freely and peacefully, without loss of dignity. That is "the rule" of law there. Even if you don't agree with her beliefs, to have her rights to them denied is as much a threat to you as it is to anyone else. A baseball cap and a yamaka may be the same thing to you, but it isn't to the hundreds of millions of Jews who practice the faith, and likewise a woman who practices the Muslim faith should not be denied to wear the scarf prescribed by her religion if she so chooses.

There are some issues with covering your entire face in a classroom:

1. It would be easy for an upperclassman substitute to take an exam for you. This is a common method of cheating in large lectures where the teacher doesn't know people's names. ID badges would accomplish nothing at all, as you can give your ID badge to the impostor and the exam taker cannot be seen except for her eyes. DNA, retinal scans, and fingerprinting are a little bit too high tech for this specific application. The most realistic solution is to reveal the face of the test-taker so that it can be matched against the picture ID. Voice identification might be a viable alternative, but it is much more difficult to match a voice than to match a face.
2. It impedes communication severely by hiding all facial expressions and muffling the voice.


Additionally:

3. There is a difference between private beliefs/practice and public behavior. Public behaviors are subject to reasonable regulation regardless of whether they originate from a religious belief or some other idea.

4. Rastafarians don't get exemptions from relevant regulations for their arbitrary religious dogmas involving marajuana, either.

5. The only difference between a religious practice and an arbitrary choice is how many people follow it. What if I decide that my new religion is skivinism, whose religious practice is to skip class every Wednesday. The teacher better not mark me down for it, or he's voliating my FREEDOM OF RELIGION! If practices based on religious beliefs must be granted exemptions from various regulations, then so must practices based on individual ideas. There is nowhere to draw the line along the continuum from individual nutter, to small cult, to large cult, to small religion, to large organized religion.

Is there really a huge wave of test impersonators using a Muslim Niqab? I call bullshit on that. I also call bullshit on the Niqab being an impediment to communication. They're not taking acting classes. Don't tell me you can't hear what's being said through a veil. It's not a muzzle. It's a thin piece of cloth. I hear my stupid neighbors arguing across the fucking street every day. If you want to make this about security you have a real problem, because like I said, the onus is on them to provide security and that means everyone needs to be identified before the test, but they are not trying to identify everybody.

" There is a difference between private beliefs/practice and public behavior. Public behaviors are subject to reasonable regulation regardless of whether they originate from a religious belief or some other idea." ... "The only difference between a religious practice and an arbitrary choice is how many people follow it." ...

This custom has been around for over a thousand years. Long before the foundation to these schools were poured. In fact, longer than many nations have existed. It doesn't really matter, justifying these rights is part of the problem. They already ARE rights. Taking rights away is the issue and you all should be concerned when any government starts telling you what you can wear.

>> ^jwray:
There are some issues with covering your entire face in a classroom:
1. It would be easy for an upperclassman substitute to take an exam for you. This is a common method of cheating in large lectures where the teacher doesn't know people's names. ID badges would accomplish nothing at all, as you can give your ID badge to the impostor and the exam taker cannot be seen except for her eyes. DNA, retinal scans, and fingerprinting are a little bit too high tech for this specific application. The most realistic solution is to reveal the face of the test-taker so that it can be matched against the picture ID. Voice identification might be a viable alternative, but it is much more difficult to match a voice than to match a face.
2. It impedes communication severely by hiding all facial expressions and muffling the voice.

Additionally:
3. There is a difference between private beliefs/practice and public behavior. Public behaviors are subject to reasonable regulation regardless of whether they originate from a religious belief or some other idea.
4. Rastafarians don't get exemptions from relevant regulations for their arbitrary religious dogmas involving marajuana, either.
5. The only difference between a religious practice and an arbitrary choice is how many people follow it. What if I decide that my new religion is skivinism, whose religious practice is to skip class every Wednesday. The teacher better not mark me down for it, or he's voliating my FREEDOM OF RELIGION! If practices based on religious beliefs must be granted exemptions from various regulations, then so must practices based on individual ideas. There is nowhere to draw the line along the continuum from individual nutter, to small cult, to large cult, to small religion, to large organized religion.

>> ^burdturgler:
Is there really a huge wave of test impersonators using a Muslim Niqab? I call bullshit on that.

It's not the Niqab in specifically, but proxy exam taking is one of the most common cheats, and I would know because I've been teaching at a university for 6 years. Niqab is just something that would facilitate the sort of cheating that is already a problem. It is also common practice to ask students to remove all hats during exams so that their eyes can be seen to not wander when they are hunched over an exam paper. In a smaller class they don't need to ID card people, because the teacher knows everybody's name by sight, unless their face is always covered.

Also, I imagine that when instructing students in a foreign language on phonetics it would be very helpful to see how they are moving their mouth so that you can correct them if that is part of the problem.

This was an interesting perspective from an older Montreal woman (written in french) who talks about how women in Canada, specifically Quebec with its strong Catholic background, fought for certain rights, and freedom from restrictive Catholic influence: the right to divorce, the wearing of a veil in church, the right to sign for your own medical consent etc.

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/le-soleil/opinions/points-de-vue/200907/24/01-887086-je-ne-suis-pas-raciste-mais-jai-peur.php

Note that this debate circle mostly around rights in the public services.

Some events that been push through this debate's strainer since some years now, to name a few:
A young Sikh men brought is Kirpan(tradional knife) to the elementary school. Should he be allowed to do so ?
In name of religion, a Muslim man refused to pass his driver's license test with a woman instructor.
Orthodox Jews required that windows giving view to women exercising be shaded in a community gym
Some muslims community are asking to be legally freed from work or study for the Friday noon prayer and be accommodate to do so.
In Ontario some people are legaly charge upon the Charia, should the Quebec allow such thing

Actual "Liberal" government (traditionally on the right) (generally get the early generation immigrant electorate) push the so called "reasonable accommodation" policy in public services kind of by opposition to the France "secular" policy in the public services. Reasonable accomodation advocate the right of expression in public services of religious symbol for main religion. The nationalist party (traditionally on the left)is pandering to the right wing of its party (the openly progressive and pro-union wing have been expelled from the party last week) and it's feeding what i'd called a negative nationalism which go along intolerance and racism on this issue.

This debate is now raging for more than a year here, although I didn't get into it, for the terms of the debate are completely distorted by partisan politics, and intermingled with emotional response arising from the erosion, or the fear of it, of "traditional culture". Consequences of a geopolitical-cultural encirclement and the ever-growing cultural and economic globalization.

So I didn't thought thoroughly about it. As for now, the questions i'm asking myself, is to where you draw the line ? What if my belief says that I should go naked to school ? Which beliefs will have rights and which won't ?

Hope that your distance will enable my fellow sifters to see clearer in this debate and help me by ricochet.

Red

@jwray
Again .. great point .. just like the whole voter fraud ballot box fingerprinting thing .. but really bullshit in context with the video. And with the entire discussion. The fact that people cheat on tests isn't in question. The fact is the Niqab is not the problem. I guarantee you that teachers don't tell students to remove their yamakas. This is not a security or integrity issue, it's a discrimination issue. Or did students not cheat before wearing the Niqab?

>> ^burdturgler:
Again .. great point .. just like the whole voter fraud ballot box fingerprinting thing .. but really bullshit in context with the video. And with the entire discussion. The fact that people cheat on tests isn't in question. The fact is the Niqab is not the problem. I guarantee you that teachers don't tell students to remove their yamakas.


How are you realistically going to tell the difference between Student A and her sister when they're both wearing Niqab? Fingerprinting is too tedious, voice ID too unreliable.

I think everyone should just give their dna to the government and be implanted with a chip that identifies everything they do. Ideally it would transmit thoughts as well, and then people like you could decide whether what I'm thinking is ok or not.

Wait, is that hyperbole? Well, so is all this bullshit about identifying people and cheating on tests. These things have been happening for a long time now. Certainly the Niqab is not the problem.

@burdturgler

I explained to my girlfriend it is required for her to post tits if she wished to continue expressing herself on teh internets, and she refused. She cited womens rights and gender equality blah blah

Also, you're absolutely 100% correct. The niqab is not the problem. Full facial coverings are the problem when engaging the public. If niqab's are determined to be reasonable, and are accommodated as such then I might start going out in full face masks too. I don't much like people and, honestly, I would love to be able to enjoy the same level of anonymity in the real world as I enjoy online.

Again, I'll group yamakas in the same category as earrings and baggie pants. If I didn't know any better, I'd say they're no less an expression of individuality, or lack thereof, then shutter shades. But the niqab, if I didn't know any better, and even if I did know better, looks to hide the identity of a person.

Look, I get it. I'm also worried about the governments plans. I'm worried they'll watch my internet traffic and decide I'm a Ron Paul supporter and then they'll slow my internet down / cause disconnects often.

I'm worried they will hand over too much power to corporations. I'm worried they will show too much preference in tax breaks to religious institutions.

But if tomorrow they enacted a law similar to the "No shoes, no shirt, no service" signs you see sometimes. I'd have no problem with that. It would be optional. Meaning if you walk into my store and refuse to show your face, I can legally refuse to serve you. That seems reasonable to me. "No face, No place."

It's a different issue when it's government services. But the necessity to show your face during exams and while voting stands.

Or we could just have people keep their faces unconcealed when in public. >> ^burdturgler:
I think everyone should just give their dna to the government and be implanted with a chip that identifies everything they do. Ideally it would transmit thoughts as well, and then people like you could decide whether what I'm thinking is ok or not.

>> ^Matthu:
Or we could just have people keep their faces unconcealed when in public. >> ^burdturgler:
I think everyone should just give their dna to the government and be implanted with a chip that identifies everything they do. Ideally it would transmit thoughts as well, and then people like you could decide whether what I'm thinking is ok or not.



It's fucking HILARIOUS, you making a point about identifying people in public, and I don't even know if it's you or your girlfriend that I'm responding to.
You're the only one here posting with two people on the same account. Maybe something should be done about that.

You people amaze me, you sound like right-wing politicians...
To rougy: for you a piece of clothing is just a piece of clothing, you barely manage to go 2 sentences without showing your whole point is based on your disdain for Muslims, even if I agreed with you and hated Muslims with all my heart it would still have nothing to do with this discussion, you would not approve of teachers asking someone to remove a Yamaka, a cross or anything else.
As for the rest of you, what the fuck is this bullshit bringing up identification in the class room as a problem? fuck me, you're right, how else would they know it's her? they couldn't come up with some simple solution like having her unveil herself to the teachers in private before the test or any of a hundred other solutions a 12 year old could come up with, no! this is the only way!
Her voice is muffled? she can speak up.
We're not talking about bringing a knife to school where I could see the arguments towards safety of others, we're not talking about shaded gym windows, where it's a case of the subjects forcing their ways actively on others (believe me, Israel is packed full of this bullshit, I would be the last one to argue for it).
Stop treating this issue like children, at the very least understand that this sort of behavior is very clearly the manifestation of bigotry, the practical reasoning behind it is moronic. She isn't some lunatic who made up a religion and its tenets yesterday and is demanding they be recognized. For fuck's sake she is seeking education, how retarded is it to deny it of her? Especially when you understand that she has no choice, when faced with such a restriction she would sooner abandon education than abandon her faith... is that not an appropriate place to draw a line?

So I was thinking, I don't see why this would go to a provincial level. Institute a basic dress policy as they have in business or in private even public schools. It is well within the schools/institutions right to have one. No I don't hate Muslims but I do religions; I 100 percent agree with the ideal that you accustom YOURSELF to the countries customs not the other way around.

burdturgler, you where a douche for pouncing on dudes g/f, she was referring what I said about Sikh knife, and it has everything to do with this story because it involves individual religious beliefs, if you are not up to speed on that story from a couple years back I can inform you of it.

I explained to my girlfriend it is required for her to post tits if she wished to continue expressing herself on teh internets, and she refused.


I didn't make it clear she wouldn't be posting anymore?

>> ^BoneRemake:
So I was thinking, I don't see why this would go to a provincial level. Institute a basic dress policy as they have in business or in private even public schools. It is well within the schools/institutions right to have one. No I don't hate Muslims but I do religions; I 100 percent agree with the ideal that you accustom YOURSELF to the countries customs not the other way around.
burdturgler, you where a douche for pouncing on dudes g/f, she was referring what I said about Sikh knife, and it has everything to do with this story because it involves individual religious beliefs, if you are not up to speed on that story from a couple years back I can inform you of it.


This concept "that you accustom YOURSELF to the countries customs not the other way around" ... Does said country not include rights to religious freedom and the ability to worship and peacefully express those beliefs? Yes? It's sickening reading some of these posts. Is there some government mandate that says what business attire someone should wear? No. You 'hate religions', so you're a bigot and have no respect for other peoples rights. I'm a douche for "pouncing" on the knife thing? You're a douche for making it a part of this conversation. This video has nothing to do with that. A scarf is not a knife.

It's not business attire either, hypocrite.
>> ^burdturgler:
>> ^BoneRemake:
So I was thinking, I don't see why this would go to a provincial level. Institute a basic dress policy as they have in business or in private even public schools. It is well within the schools/institutions right to have one. No I don't hate Muslims but I do religions; I 100 percent agree with the ideal that you accustom YOURSELF to the countries customs not the other way around.
burdturgler, you where a douche for pouncing on dudes g/f, she was referring what I said about Sikh knife, and it has everything to do with this story because it involves individual religious beliefs, if you are not up to speed on that story from a couple years back I can inform you of it.

This concept "that you accustom YOURSELF to the countries customs not the other way around" ... Does said country not include rights to religious freedom and the ability to worship and peacefully express those beliefs? Yes? It's sickening reading some of these posts. Is there some government mandate that says what business attire someone should wear? No. You 'hate religions', so you're a bigot and have no respect for other peoples rights. I'm a douche for "pouncing" on the knife thing? You're a douche for making it a part of this conversation. This video has nothing to do with that. A scarf is not a knife.

What if the teacher is a man? What if there are no female teachers nearby? I know, we'll hire a woman specifically to I.D. anyone who has issues with a man seeing their face. That's reasonable accommodation.>> ^NinjaInHeat:
You people amaze me, you sound like right-wing politicians...
To rougy: for you a piece of clothing is just a piece of clothing, you barely manage to go 2 sentences without showing your whole point is based on your disdain for Muslims, even if I agreed with you and hated Muslims with all my heart it would still have nothing to do with this discussion, you would not approve of teachers asking someone to remove a Yamaka, a cross or anything else.
As for the rest of you, what the fuck is this bullshit bringing up identification in the class room as a problem? fuck me, you're right, how else would they know it's her? they couldn't come up with some simple solution like having her unveil herself to the teachers in private before the test or any of a hundred other solutions a 12 year old could come up with, no! this is the only way!
Her voice is muffled? she can speak up.
We're not talking about bringing a knife to school where I could see the arguments towards safety of others, we're not talking about shaded gym windows, where it's a case of the subjects forcing their ways actively on others (believe me, Israel is packed full of this bullshit, I would be the last one to argue for it).
Stop treating this issue like children, at the very least understand that this sort of behavior is very clearly the manifestation of bigotry, the practical reasoning behind it is moronic. She isn't some lunatic who made up a religion and its tenets yesterday and is demanding they be recognized. For fuck's sake she is seeking education, how retarded is it to deny it of her? Especially when you understand that she has no choice, when faced with such a restriction she would sooner abandon education than abandon her faith... is that not an appropriate place to draw a line?

>> ^burdturgler:
It's fucking HILARIOUS, you making a point about identifying people in public, and I don't even know if it's you or your girlfriend that I'm responding to.
You're the only one here posting with two people on the same account. Maybe something should be done about that.


You do realize that you're arguing with a guy who thinks I should be banned for expressing an opinion that differs from his, right? I wouldn't look for a lot of consistency or courtesy there.

Agreed. Wasting my time.

odd you feel your wasting your time giving an opinion. look I might think your a douchebag, and likewise, but dont say your wasting your time, your not here to convert everyone to how you think. religious freedoms can only go so far until they interject themselves into places they have no business being.

All of this talk of rights. You know what Carlin said about rights? You have no rights. You have privileges.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/01/23/antimask.ruling/index.

Here is a state law for Virginia

It shall be unlawful for any person over sixteen years of age while wearing any mask, hood or other device whereby a substantial portion of the face is hidden or covered so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, to be or appear in any public place, or upon any private property in this Commonwealth without first having obtained from the owner or tenant thereof consent to do so in writing. However, the provisions of this section shall not apply to persons (i) wearing traditional holiday costumes; (ii) engaged in professions, trades, employment or other activities and wearing protective masks which are deemed necessary for the physical safety of the wearer or other persons; (iii) engaged in any bona fide theatrical production or masquerade ball; or (iv) wearing a mask, hood or other device for bona fide medical reasons upon the advice of a licensed physician or osteopath and carrying on his person an affidavit from the physician or osteopath specifying the medical necessity for wearing the device and the date on which the wearing of the device will no longer be necessary and providing a brief description of the device. The violation of any provisions of this section shall constitute a Class 6 felony.
http://law.justia.com/virginia/codes/toc1802000/18.2-422.html

I cant delete my comment above. The link caused the page to go awry.

Fixed it. I was afraid that the comment caused a problem for other users, sorry if it did.

a jack ass douchebag downvotes what ?

That is a fine example of a quality post, ALTHOUGH, this topic does have to do with Canadian provinces and its judicial follow up. I hope there is a equivalent on the .ca side


>> ^NordlichReiter:
All of this talk of rights. You know what Carlin said about rights? You have no rights. You have privileges.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/01/23/antimask.ruling/index.

http://law.justia.com/virginia/codes/toc1802000/18.2-422.html

Can we stop with the "You hate Muslims!" bullshit? I have seen nothing in this thread to indicate anybody is targeting Muslims for discrimination.

This is a case of "When in Rome". The regulations of a location, in this case a school, trump the absolute freedom of the individual. When you are at home, you can dress however the hell you want. But when you go to a school, you follow their regulations or stay out.

If you think their regulations are discriminatory, then you can round up some community support and get the regulations changed. If the community thinks your tradition is stupid (and a hell of a lot of westerners think hiding your face is stupid), then you are screwed.

Adapt to your new environment or go home. This is not about religion or discrimination, it is about a newcomer who refuses to adapt to the place they chose to come to, and is instead trying to force their new home to change to accommodate them.

I'm conflicted on a lot of this save 1 point: No legal action should be involved. No law against the wearing of the Niqab; no legal action against the school.

If something requires a photo ID, then she ought to be required to show her face, yes. In any other case, she ought to be free to decide what she wears. If she chooses to wear the mask, then she has to deal with the inconveniences of people not being able to hear her, feeling uncomfortable around her, staring or whatever else.

I'm voting the video down because it's a pathetic piece of work by TYT. Also pathetic: the childish bickering that followed. Save the temper-tantrums for your mommy, guys.

So you're very tolerant except of Muslims, foreigners and other cultures? Don't set that bar too high, now.
>> ^rougy:
Hard call for me. I'm all for tolerance, but I do remember a college professor forcing all of the guys to take off their ball caps in his class.
I also can't stand fundamentalist religions of any sort, especially the type that subjugates women, which I believe Islam does with these sorts of dress codes.
I'll also say that in western cultures, the concealment of the face is usually associated with criminal activity.
I kind of think...if a person wants to live their lives in such a backwards manner, how can they really expect to be treated otherwise in a modern, western, 21st century world?
I mean, fuck! A couple of Britons are going to jail in Dubai (I think) for kissing in public. Given that kind of social intolerance, I'm not going to get all worked up about this one just yet.

God, they can do whatever they want.

Tattoo's I think degrade the "wearer".

Denim tights degrade the wearer.

etc etc

>> ^xxovercastxx:
So you're very tolerant except of Muslims, foreigners and other cultures? Don't set that bar too high, now.
>> ^rougy:
Hard call for me. I'm all for tolerance, but I do remember a college professor forcing all of the guys to take off their ball caps in his class.
I also can't stand fundamentalist religions of any sort, especially the type that subjugates women, which I believe Islam does with these sorts of dress codes.
I'll also say that in western cultures, the concealment of the face is usually associated with criminal activity.
I kind of think...if a person wants to live their lives in such a backwards manner, how can they really expect to be treated otherwise in a modern, western, 21st century world?
I mean, fuck! A couple of Britons are going to jail in Dubai (I think) for kissing in public. Given that kind of social intolerance, I'm not going to get all worked up about this one just yet.



So my hat is douch-baggery and her face-hiding scarf is sacred?

I'm very tolerant. If you've looked at my words and trace them henceforth you might agree. But I have little patience for fundamentalists.

And I'll tell you why: because when the tables are turned, the fundamentalists will never afford the "secular world" the same tolerance that we afforded them.

I don't hate her. I hope she learns French, but more importantly I hope she learns how to take off that stupid fucking mask.

I do not apologize for that thought.

>> ^Matthu:
What if the teacher is a man? What if there are no female teachers nearby? I know, we'll hire a woman specifically to I.D. anyone who has issues with a man seeing their face. That's reasonable accommodation.

No, that's a waste of money to accommodate some insane dogma.

It's not any more a violation of her rights than it would be a violation of the rights of a student who was afraid of bright lights to refuse to dim the lights in a classroom. She's partaking in services that involve other people, and therefore doesn't get to dictate all the terms. She can wear whatever she wants / do whatever she wants at home.

Also, if a female goes to certain Muslim countries while NOT wearing some full body covering, she'll get assaulted by police because of it. That's way worse than a school dress code. It's a symbol of the oppression of women because in many countries they still do not have the choice to not wear it.

Ooo, I didn't even see this controversy.

@jwray is right, most everyone else is wrong. That is all.

Or, no not really.
The niqab is barbaric, from a barbaric age, a remnant. In this context, the school can set standards that you have to follow if you want to be in that school. If you don't want to, you can go to a school that allows it.

I'm getting more and more against the woman here from tyt. From Epic Beard Man to this, I don't like her opinions.

I like her tits. I found it funny how people equated this with, " your okay with X but not okay with x,u,d,u " stfu, you arguments are jackassery in the highest orders. I am right everyone is wrong.

She felt humiliated, not human, as if she had no rights...

Irony? What irony, tabarnak?...