And if he does it, he's most likely to be shot down or thrown some absolutely bullshit rumour/scandal/indigment thing on him. It's a no win and i hope that these 18-29 year olds mr Moore talks about make that revolution happen.

The 18 - 29 year are not knowledgeable enough to vote and got fooled is some hope and change hype.

Looking to someone else to fix things will never avail, be it Republican, Democrat, President, Senator, Mother, Father. Outsourcing positive change to another might be the main sickness with the current understanding of our role in government.

>> ^bobknight33:

The 18 - 29 year are not knowledgeable enough to vote and got fooled is some hope and change hype.


The 29-50 not are get hope and is hype change vote won't will knowledge are not with get hope hype word salad

>> ^GeeSussFreeK:

Looking to someone else to fix things will never avail, be it Republican, Democrat, President, Senator, Mother, Father. Outsourcing positive change to another might be the main sickness with the current understanding of our role in government.


I guess I see it differently. The real problem is that people seem to think so highly of themselves that they think they don't need help from anyone, think they've never gotten help from anyone, and therefore resent the idea that they might have to help someone themselves.

We all have to rely on other people, almost constantly. It's not too much to ask the people we rely on to do the things we expect them to do, especially if they ask us to give them a really important responsibility in our society.

There's a reason why we have a government. If it's not working, we need to fix it. We can't just stiffen our upper lips and pretend like we never needed a functional government in the first place.

WTF?
You must be one of those uneducated 18 - 29 year olds.
Do the world a favor, never vote.

>> ^FlowersInHisHair:

>> ^bobknight33:
The 18 - 29 year are not knowledgeable enough to vote and got fooled is some hope and change hype.

The 29-50 not are get hope and is hype change vote won't will knowledge are not with get hope hype word salad

>> ^bobknight33:

WTF?
You must be one of those uneducated 18 - 29 year olds.
Do the world a favor, never vote.
>> ^FlowersInHisHair:
>> ^bobknight33:
The 18 - 29 year are not knowledgeable enough to vote and got fooled is some hope and change hype.

The 29-50 not are get hope and is hype change vote won't will knowledge are not with get hope hype word salad


Wrong.

@NetRunner It would be over simplistic for me to say what "the real problem" is, I was pointing out "a" problem I see with certain mindsets. But surely, the people you mention do exist, and to that I mean people who want a certain degree of leeway in those they help. A person who spends a good deal of his time taking care of his body may find it slightly repulsive to pay for the care of someone whom has not taken care of himself, and perhaps rightly so. The shoe exists on the other foot as well, I am not blind to those who very little personal action was taken but very much social/economic/political benefit was reaped. Often have I toyed around with different ways of managing property rights and such to eliminate or make more difficult the position of the freeloading, powerful man.

I don't deny the need of government, nor would I suggest its eradication. My objection was more in line with "how" people are solving the problem of a non-functional government. Forgive me, but having been to several protests now, I find them moronic. It plays out like children jumping on a bed in a stew of anger. Some of Cobert's recent shows on OWS, and before it, the Tea Party stuff made me laugh to tears as I so greatly identified with is complaints. The overall event of a rally is a dogmatic, simplistic, and mostly naive portrayal of the problems, and to rant about even more dogmatic, arbitrary and simplistic solutions. To be forthright, I am an introvert. Large groups of people will, in time, always annoy me, and as such, I admit that perhaps there is something different about a rally that I don't understand. Some kind of comradery in spouting babbling cheers, sitting a public place for no real objective, and making a ruckus. It would seem that most of a rally is about being seen, and I would rather not be. Instead, I would rather be unseen, but actually affecting. It seems more beneficial as a rally only can indirectly change something, where as any other course of direct action has a real effect. For instance, if I were mad about jobs, the last thing I would do is OWS, I would instead seek to create a job fair.

And that was my main point, rallying seems to be the battle cry for those whom want solutions to be created by someone else. Why waste your time and money supporting a rally instead of the cause itself? I used to not have this world view. But, I hold now that spending your energies directly addressing the problem is more beneficial, in large, than trying to bring "awareness" to it. Perhaps I am wrong, though, and some level of awareness is needed just to enact the more hidden, direct changes, hard to say.

The reason I mentioned any of this was because of the position Mr. Moore took up on Obama. He talked about how it was young people that got him elected, that he didn't do the job he was elected to do exactly the way he laid it out, so they became disenfranchised. That was my main concern, and it would seem that those who fall victim to this are the same that think rallying will do anything other than have a rally. As a libertarian minded person, the last thing I am looking to do is give people less of a voice, my aim is almost always entirely the opposite. My objection was that outsourcing your voice to something that is only going to indirectly help you might not be the best course of action. Mad about wall street, fine, but do you still have a 401k? Often times, we are, esoterically, part of the problem and it is that kind of conversation you won't find at a rally. We are always in the right, and we were always wronged by some evil third party...a great children's story, but more often than not, not exactly true.

Sorry for the long rant. More poor command of the egrish usually means I babble on.

why would you have no sympathy for a black kid, who's always been on the short end of the stick?

In mythology, hercules ended up killing his own children. I'm pretty sure he was watching fox news

>> ^GeeSussFreeK:

A person who spends a good deal of his time taking care of his body may find it slightly repulsive to pay for the care of someone whom has not taken care of himself, and perhaps rightly so.

But what's the real root of that objection? Is it that they think it'd be more helpful overall if there was also money going into programs designed to encourage people to take better care of themselves? Or is it just a fundamental rejection of the idea that they should bear any responsibility for other people?

The former I'm sympathetic to, the latter not so much.
>> ^GeeSussFreeK:
For instance, if I were mad about jobs, the last thing I would do is OWS, I would instead seek to create a job fair.

Right, but job fairs don't fix anything if the problem is that you have more people who want a job than there are openings. It's not that we have 10 million job openings, and 10 million unemployed people, and all we need to do is help them find each other. The problem is that we've got 10 million unemployed, and barely 1 million openings (or maybe the ratio is even worse).

I suppose the unemployed could try giving each other jobs, but they don't really have any money to hire people -- that's why they're looking for jobs in the first place. And the people who do have money have been laying people off rather than hiring more people -- that's why we have so many unemployed people. And the people with money are doing that because their sales are down, and their sales are down because people don't have any money because they lost their jobs...

The people who're suffering need help from the people who aren't. And the people who aren't suffering are saying "don't blame us, blame yourselves," and generally lashing out at anyone who implies they have a moral obligation to help.

So of course there are protests. Hell, in the grand sweep of history, this kind of protest has rarely ended peacefully.

These people aren't just whining about having to pay taxes, they're incensed about having worked all their lives to get a modest amount of prosperity, and lost it all for reasons that were beyond their control. They're mad as hell and they're not gonna take it anymore.