Forces the IDF? Please.

The IDF has total discretion in picking its targets, they wanted to bomb them so they did, the US and ISAF forces don't even bomb areas in Iraq and Afghanistan if they know it could result in needless civilian casualties.

It isn't a surprise of course that Hamas militants are using schools to launch attacks from. The bastards WANT Israel to fire back on that position. Condemn Hamas in the strongest terms for it, but IMHO that doesn't take Israel off the hook either. Israel still shouldn't be blowing up schools, Hamas' "forcing" of the issue just makes them BOTH guilty. I'll even accept Hamas is 'more' guilty, but when we are talking about blowing up a school I don't think being 'less' guilty is really much of a commendation.

I was watching Hardtalk last night, they had an Israeli ambassador on regarding the recent military actions in Gaza, the point was raised that Israel is using a disproportionate response to the threat it faces, the ambassador dodged the question by saying that Hamas is forcing its hand, to which the interviewer then came back to yes it is Hamas intention to carry out such action because it lacks any other form of resistance but why is then Israel a nation that wants to represent something better then a fundamentalist terrorist group lowering itself to terrorism itself?

Al Jazeera report on Israel's attack on UN run school in Gaza.



You condemn the actions of Hamas without ever looking at why terrorism has become the last resort of certain political groups in Palestine. Maybe it's because Israel doesn't really care about striving for a Palestinian state and peace.

I'm not taking either side of the issue, so don't think I'm implying anything by asking this question but:

Is the "appropriate" response, while a mortar attack is ongoing and potentially killing innocent people at the receiving end, to sit by and allow the attackers to continue their assault indefinitely?

Putting aside why either side does what (e.g., launching mortars from a school), just generally speaking in terms of offense/defense, if someone is continually launching weapons killing people from a distance and they don't stop (because they have no reason to stop while Israel exists), what should the response of the attacked people be? I'm trying to conceive of a viable alternative to 1) sitting and watching as innocent people in your own country are being killed, hoping it stops some time soon, and 2) launching an attack against the attackers to force them to stop.

Again, I'm just looking for a better understanding of the differing points of view, not spouting rhetoric.

Also, I don't know the results of this specific incident. Did the IDF drop a bomb destroying the entire school?

[edit]
To be clear, my questions are more in general than this specific attack. Whether mortars or rockets, near or far, schools or hospitals, the issue remains.

(Note: this is not the same as rocket-attacking Israeli cities from a range of many miles. Mortars have very limited range, so are they targeting Israeli civilians, or Israeli hardened military asset points?)
------------
Upvote for Lucky's comment, though. I agree that attacking schools is bad, but what is the alternative?

I am not proud of the things my country have done these last few days. Israel had made mistakes, and I am horrid by the death toll of inoccent civilians. But how can you fight against this kind of terrorism? how can you fight "fair" when the battle they lead is among inoccent civilians. The only weapon they have is the pictures of their dead.

It's pretty simple.

You don't bomb a target that you can hit with machine-gun fire. I've watched too many videos of accurate sniper fire from helicopters, a lot of times with scrambling targets.

These targets were mostly fixed, and could've been taken out with a gun, instead of blowing the whole place up with missiles.

As that Israeli soldier said, it's apparently all about "purification".

You condemn the actions of Hamas without ever looking at why terrorism has become the last resort of certain political groups in Palestine. Maybe it's because Israel doesn't really care about striving for a Palestinian state and peace.


I'll assume you are addressing me, and yes I am entirely comfortable condemning Hamas irregardless of how or why they came into being. I am proud to condemn any group encouraging the suicide bombing of civilians and the recruitment of children for same.

I'm sorry, but I really feel as though there is the misconception that condemning Hamas as the monsters that they are is somehow an endorsement of any and all Israeli tactics against Hamas, it isn't!

This video just once again shows the uncomfortable reality of the situation. Hamas militants committed to the destruction of Israel are launching rocket and mortar attacks against Israeil civilians from the cover of school children. Israel in it's turn bombs the school killing more children than Hamas rocket's ever have. But what in the hell is the answer to this cycle? Those same children are being recruited and trained by Hamas to blow themselves up.

Hamas needs to be stopped, but not for the sake of Israel, because they are piss poor at killing Israelis. They need to be stopped because they are doing a damn sight better job of killing Palestinian civilians, either directly to consolidate their control and power and through active recruitment for suicide bombings, or indirectly by using them as human shields. And let me be clear, I don't excuse Israel for killing those human shields by accusing Hamas, both are guilty for the casualties.

But the question stands, what is the real solution? Leaving Hamas alone to build up has provenly shown that they simply kill moderate Palestinians to consolidate their internal support and continue to launch more rockets at Israel the more chance they are given to build up.


Maybe it's because Israel doesn't really care about striving for a Palestinian state and peace.

Show me any nation in the entirety of the world that gives two shits about any other beyond the impact on it's own self-interest. I don't expect Israel to care about a Palestinian state beyond the benefits a stable independent Palestine would provide them. I would obviously hope and urge them to care, and I even condemn them for not. But after the world(every single nation on the planet, without exception) completely ignored the genocide of Rwanda, I no longer have any expectation of nations to care for any interests but their own. It makes me sad,angry and emotions I can't really describe, but I just can't deny that is reality.

Well, seeing as they are sending in tanks and troops anyway, couldn't they send troops in to these buildings to get those that are firing the mortars? They seem to 'know' where the attacks are coming from, so rather than just sending in missiles and accepting huge civilian casualites, wouldn't the 'right' thing to do be doing all you can to ONLY get the 'bad guys'?

Do note I say this with little to no understanding of how hard it would actually BE to get troops there, I'm just saying, why are bombs the only option?

And from my point of view, both sides are dead wrong on this... both sides who can't accept a peaceful outcome. Both sides who have decided it's their 'god given' right to inhabit a certain piece of soil.

Fuck religion, fuck people who take things as written in old books as inarguable proof and a just cause for them killing others.

Fuck them all for making the lives of all of those living on both sides of this that really just want peace, and don't really care for pissing matches over land

They seem to 'know' where the attacks are coming from, so rather than just sending in missiles and accepting huge civilian casualites, wouldn't the 'right' thing to do be doing all you can to ONLY get the 'bad guys'?

Do note I say this with little to no understanding of how hard it would actually BE to get troops there, I'm just saying, why are bombs the only option?


To get a judgment of how hard it is look at the Israeli losses due to friendly fire. They aren't just hitting civilians by accident, they are hitting their own fellow uniformed soldiers as well. It is extremely hard on the battlefield to tell friend from foe, even in a conventional war with uniformed troops on open fields. This is a fight in a city against an opponent actively trying to look like civilians and hide behind them. It's more than hard, it's pretty much impossible.

http://www.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUSL05686115

^ we can all send links:
http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20090101212318310

A serious question -- Everyone is talking about Hamas and Israel. What is the correct response for the people in the school?

With many students surely someone noticed that men were sneaking around setting off mortars. If you decide to sit tight, you must realize you're being used as a human shield. Surely you would get the hell out of there? Or possibly even actively resist the people who are trying to instigate Israel to kill you?

>> ^rychan:
A serious question -- Everyone is talking about Hamas and Israel. What is the correct response for the people in the school?
With many students surely someone noticed that men were sneaking around setting off mortars. If you decide to sit tight, you must realize you're being used as a human shield. Surely you would get the hell out of there? Or possibly even actively resist the people who are trying to instigate Israel to kill you?


Absolutely...

Shocking that parents would knowingly send their kids to a "school" where mortar is fired in the schoolyard. I guess it's a cultural thing to be proud that your child dies as a "martyr".

By the way... isn't the preposition Al-Jazeera chose so obviously ridiculous?

"War on Gaza"

>> ^Farhad2000:You condemn the actions of Hamas without ever looking at why terrorism has become the last resort of certain political groups in Palestine. Maybe it's because Israel doesn't really care about striving for a Palestinian state and peace.


I condemn Hamas for deliberately violating the presumed neutrality of a school, and then having the hutzpah to lay the victim's blood at the Israeli's feet. They have no shame, no conscious.

LOUD NOISES!

Ha.

You guys are ridiculous, you think the IDF bombing Gaza will eliminate Hamas? Did the Lebanon war eliminate Hezbollah? Both these entities came forth from Israel aggression and injustice in dealing with Palestine. Jewish people themselves resent the Zionist actions of the military forces knowing full well that everything that is wrought now will back fire in new groups, new individuals and new suicide bombers.

But you know maybe it will! Who knows! It definitely has worked in Afghanistan and Iraq! Not COIN or hearts and minds but simply we have to bomb Gaza to save it!

Gaza has been under blockade for 2 years, continuous apartheid has been in effect for far longer, its economical, socially and politically been coerced into fighting in any means it can, the Israelis have gone into the West Bank and Gaza countless times to seek out terrorists only to see them rise again like hydra heads because the essential underlining policy of achieving peace is flawed in design to propagate continuous hostility and conflict with the Palestinian people. You know so Israel can claim victim, build walls all over, sniper towers while pushing settlements out and claim a bit more land.

Zionism wants Israel to occupy West Bank and Gaza with no Palestinian state, so in effect Hamas wants the elimination of Israel. The two policies are mirrors of one another.

The Palestinian areas have hand every building bombed, bulldozed and blown through so many times and you guys are saying Hamas should act like uniformed forces against the IDF. It's asymmetrical warfare, the same kind the Fedayeen employed against US forces after seeing how the Taliban got bombed to shit in Tora Bora.

That's just plain military tactics, its unfortunate they use suicide bombing and rocket attacks but hey you know they don't have obligatory military service, Merkava Tanks, F-16s, Apaches or a steady supply of Military Aid from the US.

The US achieved peace with a hostile enemy by employed the methodology of COIN and hearts and minds to allow Iraqis to govern themselves, though years late cooperation and dialog in parts of Iraq have shown that soft contact with the local populace has meant that Iraqis actively gave up insurgents themselves.

Contrast this methodology with Israel hostile stance against all Palestinian people and you quickly realize that peace is not what Israel is striving for. It's a political process of land acquisition through the guise of fighting terrorism.

>> ^Farhad2000:
Ha.
The US achieved peace with a hostile enemy by employed the methodology of COIN and hearts and minds to allow Iraqis to govern themselves, though years late cooperation and dialog in parts of Iraq have shown that soft contact with the local populace has meant that Iraqis actively gave up insurgents themselves.



The US achieved peace? Huh... I must have missed the news that US soldiers are no longer being killed in Iraq. Cool.

Peace with a hostile enemy doesn't imply there is peace all over Iraq. I was referring to certain parts of Iraqi society and country.

Don't take a video from 2007 and sift it up in way that it masks the source of the video. I actually thought this was a recent video that was relevant to the school bombings this week. But it isn't. I'm not surprised that people feel the need to lie their way out of school bombings. I mean what is worse, launching a rocket from a school, or bombing a school full of refugees. I understand if you don't answer right away.

Tags for this video have been changed from 'Hamas, Gaza, Terrorists, Dirty, Tricks' to 'Hamas, Gaza, Terrorists, Dirty, Tricks, Oct 29, 2007' - edited by eric3579

Dirty trick yes, but in what is for all purposes, a hostage situation, you simply can't justify blowing both the hostage and terrorist away, it kinda misses the point of counter-terrorism, the job in hand is to stop people blowing up innocent people, not do it for them.

>> ^Kerotan:
Dirty trick yes, but in what is for all purposes, a hostage situation, you simply can't justify blowing both the hostage and terrorist away, it kinda misses the point of counter-terrorism, the job in hand is to stop people blowing up innocent people, not do it for them.


The IDF isn't as interested in saving Palestinian lives as Israeli lives. Because of public pressure(mostly internal but some foreign as well) Israel doesn't want excessive civilian casualties to result from their strikes. That said, they are not discriminate enough in many cases and it goes beyond isolated cases and higher up than poor discipline among grunts. But, there is still an attempt to target militant targets and the occasions where a purely civilian target is hit is met with an investigation at the demand of the Israeli population. Contrast that with Hamas deliberate targeting of civilians and joyous celebration of civilian deaths. Israel is doing bad things, but Hamas is worse. This video clearly shows Hamas hiding under cover of a school, making use of their strongest weapon, martyring their own people.

Down vote - see marinara comment above

>> ^Farhad2000:
Peace with a hostile enemy doesn't imply there is peace all over Iraq. I was referring to certain parts of Iraqi society and country.


With which hostile enemy did they achieve peace? What name do you call the people that are still fighting against them?

I sound like I'm trying to be a dick, but I'm not... I'm just totally confused by how you see the situation...

Why are these guys running for cover? Are the mortars so poorly made that standing by the launch site is reasonably likely to be a dying proposition? If folks are rolling their own mortar shells, that shit is pretty hard core.

>> ^dgandhi:
Why are these guys running for cover? Are the mortars so poorly made that standing by the launch site is reasonably likely to be a dying proposition? If folks are rolling their own mortar shells, that shit is pretty hard core.


Maybe they are afraid of a hellfire missile landing in their launch site.