They hate us because of our freedom.

Pop guns and coffee can rockets are a threat to Israel. The #4 global military power thanks to US armaments.

Right.Sure. Don't believe the propaganda.

Hamas obviously should stop shooting roman candles into Israeli occupied Palestinian lands. A rocket lands.. it lands on Palestinian land.

300+ Palestinian children killed. Far more injured. Who is barbaric here?

I wonder what the official reason behind this was. Graffiti, comments, and even (accidental?) shootings can be explained away as individual prejudice on part of the troops, but this had to have been organized at a higher level. All the civilian death and damage to property has always been labeled as collateral damage in their fight against Hamas, but here it looks like those civilians were deliberately targeted. Too close to Israeli land? Retaliation for attacks from that area?

"war crime"

probably the most redundant phrase in history.

>> ^honkeytonk73:
Pop guns and coffee can rockets are a threat to Israel... Right. Sure. Don't believe the propaganda.


Yeah, getting rockets launched into your territory is no big deal! Just chill Israel! It's ONLY 3,000 rockets and mortar shells per year for the past 8 years... they're not high-tech or anything and they only kill a few people, so let's let it slide.

Tell me, what nation in the world would let their neighbours throw rockets into their backyards and do nothing?

Here are some facts.

More than 20% of the population of Israel is Arab... There are OVER 2,000,000 MUSLIMS living in Israel. They are PEACEFUL, HARD-WORKING, GET SOME OF THE BEST FREE HEALTH CARE IN THE WORLD AND THOROUGHLY ENJOY THEIR LIVES AMONG "JEWISH PEOPLE".

There are 1.6 million Arabs (the vast majority Muslim) in the Gaza strip. It is NOT "THE WORLD'S MOST DENSELY POPULATED GHETTO". Hong Kong, London, Monaco and THOUSANDS of other cities have a denser population. Mumbai has OVER 4 TIMES the population density with less than a third the land area.

How people can sympathize with ROGUE individuals launching rockets into another country is completely beyond me... what kind of logic or pathology is it play here?

(sorry for the caps, it is not a habit but some parts REALLY need emphasis.)

Here are some facts back at you:

Arab-Israelis completely opposed the Gaza engagement and Operation Cast Lead as a whole.

It is called the world most densely populated ghetto because it is surrounded by walls, check points, sniper towers all movement in and out is heavily controlled.

And it's not people sympathizing with them its the world governments, world nations and millions of citizens.

>> ^Farhad2000:
Arab-Israelis completely opposed the Gaza engagement and Operation Cast Lead as a whole.


Yeah, they have a right to their opinion, just as in any "free" country. Just look at the millions of Americans that opposed war and protested at hundreds of rallies. Freedom of thought and opinion and not squelched in Israel. There are pro-Palestinian and pro-Arab political parties seated in the Israeli parliament. If Israelis wish to vote for Arab nationalist, nothing is stopping them.

Although I'm not sure how well anti-Hamas supporters are respected in Gaza... maybe you could shine some light on that?

Hamas was voted into power by the Palestinian people after Bushes push for election in the region, they were for the seperation plans until Bush left the region and the IDF killed a Palestinian in Gaza starting the endless violence again. The PLO and the Fatah organizations are not legitimate.

The Dahlan gang in Gaza and Abbass in the West Bank are not representative of the Palestinian people as they have been shown to be supported by and only exist for the concessionary actions pushed forward by US and Israel.

Previously IDF military campaigns would divide the Palestinians with their political representatives, this didn't happen now with Hamas as the IDF has seen happen with Yasser, PLO and Fatah as a whole.

And please don't try changing the subject, what the IDF has done was targeting civilians in Gaza to punish them collectively as a whole. It could have entered Gaza as a ground force and routed out the 'terrorists', as it had done in the past but no they needed a large shock and awe campaign to reinforce their oppression and apartheid.

Do you actually believe this campaign with its large civilian death count would actually mean no more attacks will happen? Or do you think this solidified even more resistance?

Even the Americans and NATO knew that if they killed too many civilians in Afghanistan or Iraq they would only increase resistance not decrease it.

^
Sorry mate, but you haven't answered my direct question.

>> ^Farhad2000:
Hamas was voted into power by the Palestinian people...

Your first few words do answer alot, however.

Ohh the old they are all terroristsssss!!!

Up to 90% of Hamas's work and resources are spent on social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities. In the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Hamas has established hospitals, schools, and libraries, and provided other social services.

Tell me when Fatah or PLO or PA have committed the same amount of resources to actually helping the Palestinians insides of asking the EU and US for more money to line their pockets?

What answer you want? You want me to say Hamas murders all its political opponents? Sorry mate.

Following the Battle of Gaza in June of 2007, elected Hamas officials were ousted from their positions in the Palestinian National Authority government in the West Bank and replaced by rival Fatah members and independents in an action that many political experts considered illegal. Hamas retained control of Gaza. On 18 June 2007, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (Fatah) issued a decree outlawing the Hamas militia and executive force (for his pals the Israelis and America). Israel immediately thereafter imposed an economic blockade on Gaza, cutting power, food and other essential supplies for the people in Gaza.

Still no answer to my question.

If you want to know the real Hamas, scroll down a bit on the Wikipedia article where you got the figure above. Start at "Controversies" and make your way down to "International perception of Hamas". And this is from the very anti-Israel Wikipedia!

Along with your homework above, could you also name other organizations that would have the distinction of being called "political parties" with such a controversial track record? (but please don't start talking about the Tamil Tigers, IRA or ETA)

Hamas is an armed resistance organization born out of 60 years of Israels stance towards the Palestinian people, its a symptom of the policies that were undertaken not some disease that suddenly sprung up against Israel.

You can fret and make all kinds of allegations you want, but neither ETA, IRA or the Tamil Tigers had to fight a resistance campaign within a walled compound, with constant surveillance and over watch by the IDF with its Merkava tanks, Apache helicopters, and uniformed forces funded by the US army. A better example would be the Algerian resistance campaign.

Am not here to advocate for them but to explain their side. Because all you do is justify Israels unilateral military actions against the Palestinians as a whole. Look the onus is on you to justify the numerous deaths and destruction the IDF has unilaterally applied to all Palestinians. Not on me to explain why Israel policy has forced the existence of groups like Hamas and Hezboallah to take up arms in a guerrilla conflict.

I assure you I understand the point of view that the Muslim Palestinians are the underdogs and that they supposedly are a modern "ressistance" movement.

But I think the crux of the question is whether Muslim (or Christian) Arabs can live peacefully among Jewish people or if Jewish people can live peacefully among Muslims. I use religious terms here because, unfortunately, some people are still convinced that "prophecy" is relevant when in fact we've got people working with chromosomes and gene sequencing as we speak.

My opinion, looking at the current state of affairs, is that Palestinians would be far better of living in Israel than Israelis living in Palestine. Unfortunately the likelihood of this happening is beyond probability.

>> ^Farhad2000:
Look the onus is on you to justify the numerous deaths and destruction the IDF has unilaterally applied to all Palestinians.


My argument, to answer your question, is that Israel is a very responsible state in that it adheres to what is generally acknowledged as the peak of "civilization" in the form of political, economic, personal, social, educational and spiritual liberty. Did you know that there are even "anti-discrimination" laws in the Israeli penal code?

As for armed combat... war is horrible, but the soldier who has the courage to wear a uniform has more honour than the man hiding behind women and children. There's no argument against that.

The Palestinians would not accept living in Israel now, because this has gone for too and too much blood has been spilled. The only solution is a two state solution, but the momentum towards that is never there because many factions in Israel's government believe that all of Israel is theirs and thus have used policies designed to keep the peace process in formaldehyde.

The Muslims and Jews have occupied the lands in peace for ages, it is only when we factor in political interests that declare the land for one or the other religious denomination do the problems arise.

I fervently believe that civilians in both Palestine and Israel wish for nothing more but peace, and could live with each other in peace. Economic interdependence has seen Israel rely on Palestinian labour countless times and conflict between both as only seen both lose out on economic progress, Israel doing far better because of the massive injects of funds it receives mainly from the US.

However we have political movements like Likud and Zionism and extremist thought in Hamas and other entities that make this a virtual impossibility. The reason for the existence of both is varied, in Israel there is the Manifest Destiny belief, in Palestine there is the oppression and deaths of family members that fermented armed struggle that can only end in the destruction of Israel.

Obama came into the Presidency saying that one of the key factors is that Arab states must recognize Israel, how do you force other nations to suddenly normalized relations with a hostile nation? Its like the UK telling the US to normalize relations with Cuba.

I believe everyone is complicit in the events that we see played out, neither Hamas nor the Israeli leadership will suffer from the deaths in Gaza. But the Palestinians see Hamas as the only entity that is actively fighting IDFs aggression, the whole world condemned the attacks, did anyone do anything other then declarations and condemnations? No. Alot of Palestinian civilians got killed.

And no Israel is not a perfect state as you claim, read on HRW and its own news organizations, Israel's Knesset parties nearly threw out an Arab Israeli calling him a representative of terrorists and a immigrant.

Like all Arab democratic states (of which there are few but they claim to be democratic in spirit! LOLZ) it also abuses the democracy it declares to possess, the IDF and the government as a whole have always the security issue to clamp down on progressive movements and protests. Just like every other corrupt Arab state out there who declare the Israeli actions as horrible but beat the shit out of its own citizens for protesting the same.
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/01/21/gaza-crisis-regimes-react-routine-repression

Arabs in my region suspect Obama will change things but he won't, he is a Zionist representative as much as Bush. Bush left office by calling Israel. Obama entered office by calling Israel. The US is the key factor in changing all this however the entire nation in the US is under heavy influence via AIPAC, WINEP, MEMRI and numerous other organizations that paint a very one sided picture of the conflict.

The resolution of this conflict is a corner stone of ending terrorism and extremist action against the US from the Arab world.

guess they got tired of all the suicide bombs

If you want peace, prepare for peace.

Strong video, hope the blind assholes in the US get to see it

Could this have been one side of the story. I wonder what the other side would be ?

>> ^Hex:
Strong video, hope the blind assholes in the US get to see it


We have a bit of spirited debate between Farhad and Pprt, and to finish it off we get Hex's little nugget of wisdom. Bravo!

Sincerely

Blind Asshole.

hiding behind civillians shooting rockets is definitely wrong.

KILLING the civillians to get to the people shooting the rockets is way way past wrong. especially if your side is the one supposedly in the "right" and significantly overpowers the other side.

i dont care if its america during vietnam, or israel now, killing civillians for ANY reason is always wrong. doing on this scale is downright sickening, no matter what supposed "reason" is behind it.

The way the Ottoman Empire was split was one of the worst mistakes in human history.

I disagree with Pprt's stance not only because of what I have outlined above but primarily because his approach does not provide a solution to the problem, which is insuring the security of civilians on both sides. Essentially what his stance advocates is the blank check towards Israel's continued aggressive tactics when dealing with the Palestinian people, which have been going on for 60 years and have created more and more instability and friction between both parties, not less.

One cannot bomb and maim people into submission no matter what weapons you will use, the US tried to subdue Vietnam through massive bombing campaigns and failed, not because it was wrong in its military approach or didn't drop enough ordnance but because it did not create cooperation nor understand the local populace. The Israelis do. But their aim is not to live peacefully along side the Palestinian people as a stance of foreign policy but to create enough friction that will eventually justify a cohesive seizure of all the lands in Gaza and the West Bank. Or better yet keep infringing on Palestinians so they retaliate and they can seize more land.

This cannot be allowed to occur, as it would justify the brute force tactics in capturing and holding entire enclaves under the guise of assuring security. The argument has already been applied in America's intervention in Iraq which started as when the US sought to nullify WMDs in Iraq lest the smoking gun is a mushroom cloud. This is the same argument Russia has used in intervene in Georgia and South Ossetia. The same argument Germany used in capturing Czechoslovakia.

The Holy land is not mandated to one peoples over another.

EDIT: For clarification.

It's amazing that people still try to rationalize this. Open warfare against civilians is criminal by any definition.