This is so sad... oh shit oh shit, I hope I'm not branded a Anti-semite. We can't talk about the state and plea of Palestinians without only support Israel, because EVERYTHING Israel does is beyond any criticism.

Being anti Zionist is not the same as being an anti semite, no matter how much the Jewish people claim it is.
Being a Zionist makes one a racist draconian invader that fully supports slow genocide of innocent children in order to steal more of their ancestral land. We should not support Israel in their evil murderous genocide.

Well put. But what's the % of Western (or the whole World in general except the Middle Eastern region) population who can make the distinction? It's really depressing.

Here in Canada, IMO the political landscape is very much the same as in the US. It is firmly drilled into people's mind that anyone criticizing the government of Israel's constant harrasement, military action, and land grabs in Palestinian territories are automatically branded as Anti-semitism by the likes of the JDOs (Jewish Defense Organizations). There are many legit Anti-Semitism incidents in Canada that need to be condemned, true, but there are also real over-reaction and subpression of objective opinions by the JDOs. These "false branding" hurts people's lives. And we almost NEVER hear the word Zionist (or anti-Zionist) in the media, mostly isolated to academic circles only.

Nobody would be offended hearing someone criticize any country's policy and military incursion (say, you don't like Trump/Biden? No one will say you're anti-American), but any negative comment involving Israel? Damn it boy, you're begging for trouble. As if Isreal, Likud, Netanyahu and the Jewish people are one and the same. Criticize one, you criticize all. But why is that? What makes Isreal, above all other countries, well above any reproach?

Now, I'm not pro- or anti-Semite nor pro- or anti-Zionist. Such generalised sentiment is wrong to me. I'm just pro-peace, the history of that land is way too complex and the blood spilled between its peoples ran for generations and gone on for centuries. It's unrealistic for any leaders to settle anything between their peoples in a political term or two (and not even factoring outside influences that DON'T want them to settle). There are too many hate and zero trust between the peoples right now. Just let peace reigns for a decade then it'll be time to talk settlement of statehood. Give Isrealites & Palestinians some peaoce & prosperity first. Everyone, including the media, politicians inside and outside of that land, the UN, etc. just need to recognize that and not be just so lopsided in their support.

The level of education and discernment of the average westerner in general is really depressing.

Let me fix that for ya:
"The level of education and discernment of the average HUMAN in general is really depressing."

Israel and Palestine is particularly messy though, as so much power(money, violence and otherwise) is leveraged from both sides to ensure people choose a side, and choose it with no compromises allowed, purely villainizing the other and vindicating the 'right' team.

Anti-Zionism isn't anti-semitism, as you pointed out. Yet, overwhelmingly anti-zionism is also used as a code word for denying Israel's right to exist, equivalent to confederate flag marchers claiming they haven't any racist intentions...

I considered writing it that way, but there are a few cultures where knowledge and discernment are important and I didn’t want to insult them by inclusion.

Not the same at all. Confederate flag bearers are wanting to return to a racist culture where one group has total control over all other groups. Anti Zionists do deny Israel’s right to exist, but (at least in my case) not one bit based on the race or religion of those who live there (now), but based 100% on how those illegal aliens took a country by force from its occupants, with our unbridled support, committed a genocide that continues today, and claims to be the victim every time a few rocks get thrown and they “have to” retaliate by destroying a few inhabited city blocks in the mass prison ghetto they have made of Palestine.

The multiple parallels to the Nazis treatment of Jews is insane.

@newtboy,

I have to ask your stance on illegal aliens within the USA today in that case, since you seem to use it as a derogative against 1930/40s Jewish refugees fleeing Europe for Palestine...

Feels to me the confederate flag wavers stance on illegal immigrants in the US parallels the picture you're painting of 1930s/40s Palestinian immigration closer than you maybe like to admit.

I’m against it, it’s a crime.
I believe in work visas, refugee status, and legal immigration. I believe in a system of charging employers who hire illegal immigrants to skirt taxes, wage laws, labor laws, etc. harshly enough to make it not worth the risk (like take the company/assets of repeat offenders, and using the money collected to fund the immigration and naturalization department and figure out how to supply labor without forcing people to be criminals to get a job.

Sadly those systems are broken.

Because those systems are completely broken and don’t serve the needs of either the immigrants nor the employees that need their labor, we have a massive illegal immigration problem because we have a massive labor shortage issue.

There is a parallel, but it’s not the same thing. We have (or had until recently) a strong well defended democracy, and an enormous population and landmass compared to 1917-48 occupied Palestine, and they had only a fledgling government when the Jewish war refugees they invited started inviting and facilitating a flood of illegal immigrants with a plan to take over the small country. Most of our illegal immigrants are here to make money to take home, I’m unaware of any efforts to return Texas (pre-breakup) to Mexican control like 40’s -50’s Israel.

IMO, Israel is like if 2/3 of Texas became “Tex-Mex” by force, a new country where only those of Mexican descent have rights, a vote, can own property, etc. and white Texans are forced to live in NW Texas under guard struggling to find food and water with Tex-Mex constantly squeezing them into smaller and smaller areas.
Strangely enough, you will note that those same flag waiving anti immigrant (not just anti illegal immigrant mind you) far right wingers are staunch supporters of Jewish Israel….almost like they don’t know history….wait…

@newtboy,

There's a danger here of having an actual nuanced discussion on Israel/Palestine happening here if we aren't careful...

I agree with your point of difference on illegal immigrants in the US largely not having a plan for 'independence' in their back pocket. The soft equivalence that the right wingers would point to though would be immigrant settling into small area such that they can setup a virtual community without ever needing to learn local languages and pushing hard to keep their 'own' values and way of life. I don't agree with the "Learn English" rednecks or the ones shouting how folks need to act American, but there is at least a soft parallel. virtually the only thing South Park has ever been censored on was depicting the prophet, and that 100% read as fear of violent retaliation, which isn't nothing.

I also think you hit the bigger point on how broken systems of immigration are. Particularly when domestic politics and the situation for legal immigration to refugees is grossly inadequate. I think America today though is just a much more mild example of it than the 30/40s in Palestine. For all the complaints one can level at Zionism, it's very hard to condemn them for encouraging mass emigration out of Europe. It's also clear that waiting on legal immigration routes out wasn't going to get people out fast enough. Thus I really look carefully at any anti-zionist position that includes condemning jewish 'illegal' immigration at the time. It treads dangerously close to saying they should have accepted the alternative, which was by and large remaining in Europe...

@bcglorf

I only mention the illegal status of the invading Jewish masses in the 40’s because they would deny it. I’ve heard many a person claim all Jewish people there were legal immigrants and legal refugees invited in by Palestinians, but the vast majority came after the war ended…illegally….intent on taking over the country and expelling the natives.

Coming as refugees intending to return “home” would have been fine for everyone, but they didn’t want to try that….it wouldn’t end with a Jewish state.

I’m only anti Zionist because they don’t play fair. Because they claim absolute rights to others land, heritage, water, defense, even lives, then act self righteous about their Nazi like behavior and deny any obvious parallels. I find intolerable the one sided “conflict” where rocks or fireworks are met with bullets and bombs under the excuse that “we have the right to defend ourselves”, where well under 10000 Israeli have died but over 65000 Palestinians have been killed directly not counting the millions who died of disease, malnourishment, lack of water, lack of medicine, etc. from the treatment they received from Israel.
I really dislike the situation because my country involved itself and CAUSED it….without our intervention Israel would have ceased to exist in the 50’s, and it sickens me that my country pays for a genocidal racist nation to continue to exist.

I believe the Jewish state should have been carved out of Germany. I would not complain with them returning the treatment they received from actual Nazis…it’s treating relatively innocent victims like that simply because they can that’s unconscionable.

My gripe is totally about their collective actions, not their genetics or religion. That’s the important difference between my reasoning and the right’s hatred of non white immigrants.

@newtboy,

And it’s in the origins that I think our disagreement lies. It’s convenient for both the Arab and western worlds to agree that Israel owes it’s existence as a state to Western powers gifting palestine to them as ‘reparations’. That it’s convenient for both parties though is about as far as the truth of it really goes.

As a realist, I don’t see anything going much differently if the west had opposed Jewish settlement in Palestine at the time. The Jewish people were fleeing the anticipated holocaust. In the aftermath of the actual holocaust, it was their own actions of settling in Palestine, and defending themselves once there that made them a state. Nobody gave it to them, they fought and bled for it themselves.

The closest interference of Britain came in trying to wash their hands of Palestine and declaring a 2 state solution, with borders drawn around the territory in Palestine currently occupied by Jewish and Arab populations. I still hold the key to the ongoing problems are not Israel’s declaration of independence accepting that 2 state solution, but instead the entire arab world’s declaration of war on them and intention to drive them “into the sea”. A declaration like that 3 years after the holocaust, towards a population made up largely of holocaust survivors deserves condemnation. I an’t side with the notion that in that conflict, and the immigration leasing up to it, that the European Jewish refugees are the bad guys and aggressors…

For my understanding, the general meaning of the word "Zionism" is vastly changed throughout the eras. And there isn't a homogeneous kind of Zionism anyway. What kind of "Zionist agenda" the people/government living in the land of "Israel/Palestine" in the 30-50s to today had in mind and pushing for is totally different. Let's be concerned with today's general definition of Zionism, as mostly defined by the Likud and the other far-right/Nationalist parties in today's Israel shall we?

Also, I can't imagine there are a whole lot of countries that would deny Israel's right-to-exist (like, physically, wholeheartedly want to wipe them of the face of the earth kind, NOT the expedient, political rhetorics for their own domestic consumption kind). And those that could really be crazy enough, like Iran, I constantly (naively?) felt the Ayatollahs would rather opt for silent, staus-quo relations than go to war with Israel (they must see the Ukraine invaison and see Russia/Putin isolation as a lesson, they can't afford to put themselves in the same position as Putin's in a Israel/Iran war. The Ayatollahs don't have even Iranian people standing behind them).

The good is that for Israel vs. the Arab countries, trust building is possible, but incredibly slow -- it only takes one wrong step to negate a mile of trust building -- but still, the past few years have seen some Arab countries opening up bilateral embassies with Israel along wiht increased trades & direct flights, etc.

The no good, very bad news of the statehood issues, daily IvP conflict, land grabs and from low-level militray incursions to the occasional missiles trading military operations, are happening far too often. Thus making hard-core Zionism, support of Hamas, the isolation of the Palestinian people & economy, etc. all the more severe. None of these are paths towards peace and/or creating the conditions for mutually agreeable settlement. All the flashpoints needs to be addressed in an even-handed way. But we just don't see balance in the media and/or the world political arena.

Not what I meant…because it was promised by the British long before WW2…as if it was really theirs to gift. Then they half assed the handoff and just walked away, at least that’s my take. It wasn’t handed to anyone as reparations…I know that.

The Palestinians have bled for that land at least 10 fold the amount Israeli have….just sayin.

I meant in a practical and ethical sense it would have made more sense for them to take part of Germany as actual reparations.

What I mean is the military equipment and funding we gifted them, and continue to gift them, without which they would have been destroyed in the 50’s.

Yes, in the 50’s through 80’s the Arab world was an obstacle to peace at least as much as Israel, but not so much recently….Iran being the main exception. The fact that the Arab world is at least 3 generations of military equipment behind means they aren’t a serious threat and haven’t been since America started defending them in the 50’s.

When they, as a people, invade a recently sovereign land and take it by force, then brutally subjugate the natives in the name of their safety for decades while expanding into their last remaining holdings constantly, all the while playing the victim, I’m 100% prepared to say the Jewish invaders are the bad guys….that’s anyone not granted refugee status by the Palestinians….likely over 99%. The refugees that didn’t take part in the violent bloody nation grab and subjugation and who went back home I do not blame.
.

@newtboy
"I meant in a practical and ethical sense it would have made more sense for them to take part of Germany as actual reparations."
Isn't this a red herring, irrelevant point though unless they were given part of Palestine as 'reparations'? If we're gonna fix history with wishes lets go further and erase WW2.

"When they, as a people, invade a recently sovereign land and take it by force..."
It's your characterization here that you seem to just be asserting as true, but it's the heart of where we see it differently.

Are you objecting to the Jewish refugees illegally taking refuge alongside Jewish people already in Palestine in the 30s and early 40s? Your usage of the word 'invade' seems to suggest that.

Do you think I'm misrepresenting things as well when I pointed out it was the Arab states that declared war, immediately upon Israel embracing a two state solution? And let's be clear, it was a two state solution with borders essentially mirroring the existing land occupied by both Jewish and Arab peoples currently in Palestine at the time.

You declare it was taken by force, but the history as I know it has by far the largest use of force was 100% defensive after the declaration of war by all neighboring Arab states.

What are you seeing so differently at that point of history?

Not if you excuse the invasion and takeover because they were DUE reparations, or even because they were fleeing the Nazis. I think reparations were due….by Germany, not Palestine.
Palestine paid them…and continues to pay them today.
It’s not feasible today, but it was directly after WW2, and that’s what we should have supported, even enforced.

Do you deny a massive influx of Jewish illegal immigrants invited by those who had been generously granted asylum? Do you deny they had the intent to take the land by force for a Jewish state? Do you deny most came after the war ended so weren’t fleeing war or Nazis? If not, where’s the disagreement? If so, citations please.

If they came illegally, absolutely, I object. If they came secretly intending to take the land of their benefactors by force, absolutely, I object. It was mostly in the later 40’s btw, largely AFTER the war ended. They weren’t fleeing Nazi persecution then.
Yes, when you come against the wishes of the local government intending to depose it, install your own, and expel the natives, that’s called invasion. That’s their history.

If I invite a refugee to live in my yard, and they invite their family, neighbors, and groups of armed militants who steal my house, land, and property and put me on skid roe, and the police turn a blind eye, even supporting the squatters because they’ve had it hard lately, do you think I have a right to get my friends to try to remove them, even if I wasn’t prepared to fight to the death unarmed and alone against their mob? If I do, do you still call me the aggressor? Come on. Don’t ignore the primary original crime that precipitated 70 years of atrocities.

Israel declared war by becoming a state by stealing one. I find it bullshit to blame the Palestinians neighbors for supporting their neighbor against a massive invasion and land grab by foreigners. Again, like Mexicans taking Texas back and you complaining if we tried to keep it, especially if we asked our Allie’s for help. Utter nonsense.

The Jewish people had already invaded and expelled the natives, removing all rights from any remaining. The two state solution = just go ahead and keep Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, and Utah because there’s already illegal immigrants there, in a few years you can have Kansas and Nevada, then keep expanding….those people are currently in Texas at this time. Again, you ignore the invasion, land theft, and expulsion to pretend Israel was already there…nonsense again.

Yes, it took more force to keep it from the armies of the allies of Palestine than it did to steal it from the recently liberated colony of Palestine that had no military. Duh.

What I see differently is I don’t ignore or forget the violent forced invasion by the Jewish zionists, nor the expulsion, theft from, and dehumanization of the natives, I don’t blame the natives for attempting to regain their ancestral home or properties that the Jewish state outright stole, nor do I ignore the horrific conditions those same people and their descendants have lived under for 70 years, constantly invaded further, no travel allowed, no imports, no water, no medicine, no weapons but treated like the aggressors and the criminal invaders for attempting to fight for THEIR OWN LAND, kept in shrinking ghettos, treated as sub humans to be exterminated, exactly what the Nazis did to the Jews but on a national level.