Yeah - *quality point by karaidl. All kinds of individuals/groups/organisations seek advertisement.

"I don't think it is necessary for you to pre-emptively post your standard disclaimers on every video that is critical of some part of Islam, although overall I appreciate your posts a lot."

I appreciate your comments too jwray - and as far as I remember you have never been anything but civil. I don't put a 'disclaimer' on all videos but I do put one on most Memri TV videos. I think that you and I got off on the wrong foot because two of your early videos were from Memri TV and I voted against them and posted my disclaimer. If you type Islam into pretty much any video search engine on the web the first videos that pop up will be those from Memri TV. I have a big problem with Memri TV because it is effectively a propaganda machine for the Israeli government/AIPAC/PNAC/the neocons. I think that people should be aware of that fact before they decide to help spread its videos. I do comment on most - if not all - videos about the Islamic world on the Sift because that is a world I know well, and it is a world which is very badly misunderstood and misrepresented in the majority of the media/press. I do try very hard to be objective, and to provide Sifters with some historical/theological/political context for the videos and the issues that they raise.

"You sometimes see bigotry in every corner when it isn't really there"

Maybe I do sometimes - and if I do I apologise. I try to be objective and fair, but there is so much ill-informed hatred out there - on both sides - that I occasionally misread a posters intention.

"What if a goldstar decided to start a collective entitled: Christianica? "

I think a 'Christianica' collective would be a very welcome contribution to the Sift!!!
You are right Silvercord, there are a lot of Christians on this site and they deserve a voice too. I have spoken to several of them about why they don't get involved in debates and stand up for their faith, and what I usually here is that they don't want to be abused and mocked by people who aren't prepared to enter into a civilised debate. I know of at least one Gold/Diamond member Christian who has not founded a collective yet. I would encourage them to found a Christian collective - I would join it, and I think you will find that many other people will too.

*save

Feel like *saving!

"The internet is all about free speech, in one form or another."

Let me reiterate - I'm against censorship. But this is a community, and there is a delicate balance between community cohesion and free speech. A community where everyone goes around abusing one another will not be a community much longer and it won't attract others to join it. Personally I am asking some people if they could be less abusive in the future - but this is a personal request, not a call for changing the rules or censorship.

"I know full well that when I post a comment that states I am an atheist I will alienate a certain percentage of people. They may not want to talk to me or be associated with me and thats fine, it happens, and honestly I wouldn't want to get know people that shallow."

Saying that you are an atheist, or arguing in a civilised manner in favour of atheism and against theism shouldn't alienate anyone who is worth talking to. I'm a Muslim with very good atheist friends and family. But what I and others object to is the constant volley of abuse levelled at people of faith.

"With Islam we are told over and over that the people as a whole are peaceful yet what we see and feel is often just the opposite."

I have spent a long time on this site posting videos that do show the other side of Islam, the side rarely seen in the mainstream media/press - particularly in America. I don't like video of people being stoned to death anymore than Fletch. They make me angry too. The difference is in the way we respond. I denounce the actions and teachings of Islamic fundamentalists and try to teach people - Muslim and non-Muslim - about the Islam that the vast majority of Muslims follow. Fletch responds by abusing all Muslims, calling all Islam a hateful religion and telling me to shove the Qur'an where the sun don't shine. It's about politeness. If I object to a video I comment, I may vote against it, but I don't resort to simplistic abuse and gross generalisations.

Furthermore, before I had ever had the chance to talk to Fletch he said "I'm not going to debate you, because I've seem from past exchanges you've had with BRM that it is pointless". Furthermore he accused me of viewing non-Muslims as infidels - which I don't and consequently found very offensive.

*congrats man - love your avi!

Fletch's last comment here: http://www.videosift.com/video/Children-in-militant-Kindergarten-Ceremony is a perfect example of what gets on my nerves. There is no Islamic voting block - me, other Muslims, and non-Muslims on the site have submitted videos which are critical about Islamic fundmentalism. Furthermore, Fletch's tone is crude and abusive.

"It's not so much about censorship as it is about politeness."

Amen!!!

"There was a time when I wanted to have some real conversations about spiritual matters here, but I soon understood that my questions were rarely welcomed. And yes it was a big turn off and I almost left early in my membership. It just became obvious to me then that in order to enjoy myself here, I just had to check some things at the door."

It makes me sad to read this - and I must confess that I have felt like this myself sometimes. I'm very glad that Swampgirl decided to stick with the community, and I would encourage her to discuss spiritual matters on the Sift. There are a lot of people on the Sift willing to discuss spiritual matters - they just need a little encouragement.

I would also like to hear from some of the more zealous proselytizing athesists on the sift about the issues that Dag has raised.

*quality

"So should we expand the guidelines to include some verbage around belief systems?"

Most people are well aware that I often get annoyed by some of the harsh and ill-informed critcisms levelled against people of faith - be they Christian, Muslim, Jew, etc. Sometimes it feels like it is ok to be an intolerant bigot as long as you are an atheist. I do wish that some atheists on this site could be slightly more civil and not make such sweeping comments about all religion and all religious people. Everyone likes a debate - but I get sick of being told that my fundamental beliefs are bullshit. Religious people are NOT all irrational morons who preach hate and never think for themselves - and they shouldn't be treated as such. Thankfully the vast majority of regular long term users on this site are civil and tolerant people.


However, all that being said, the essence of the problem is ignorance. The only way to defeat ignorance is through CIVILISED debate. When someone says something ignorant or hateful it annoys you intensely and your initial reaction may be to try and stop them saying it. But this really should be an absolute last resort - and I think we're a long way from that point. If we start playing the censorship game then we risk restricting the debate, and I don't think that is a good thing. In the long term, censorship is far more damaging than dialogue - no matter how uncivilised that dialogue can get.

*Congrats Swampgirl - thanks for all the quality videos!!!

"You read the Qur'an"

You're right! I've read it, studied it, scrutinised it, memorised it, translated it. I've looked at the historical context of its revelation/creation. i've studied the Islamic story of its creation and sceptical non-Islamic accounts of its creation. I've studied its themes and topics. I've studied its linguistic and formal structure. I've studied it aesthetic and poetic qualities. I've studied its transmission along ancient trade routes and through modern technology. I've studied its influence on countless people throughout history and I've seen the way that it has shaped civilisations and inspired artists. I've read countless commentaries on it - from classic works of interpretation to modern re-readings.

You on the other hand have never read it. All you've done is read a few verses - badly translated and out of their Qur'anic and historical context - quoted in the works of people who despise all faith - particularly, it seems, Islam. And yet you claim to know the first thing about Islam or the Qur'an! Another group of people do what you do - they're the militant fundamentalist extremists that some of us are working so hard to discredit.

"If Islam is anything that you claim it is, no sane person could use it for these purposes"

Have you read the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution? How could any sane person use this to justify the claim that any individual has the right to bear arms? Has the right to carry guns in public? That amendment is used to allow the sale of guns in supermarkets to anyone over the age of eighteen. Was that the original intention of the drafters of that amendment? Of course not! The true intention of the drafters has been corrupted in order to provide political and legal cover for gun nuts. The message of Muhammad and the Qur'an has been similarly perverted.