@Yogi So no need to security of any kind? Justice is purely post hoc? No need for metal detectors at airports, no need for security at the White House except to catch who ever kills your president, no need to think ahead about anything.... just react.

You lot are so precious about the strangest things. Punishment for killing or injuring someone whilst drunk means NOTHING to the killed person and almost as little to the injured person. The increase in distracted driver syndrome is due to the increase in distractions not a decrease in drink driving. Safety issues like this are prime examples of where heavy handedness and public display of such is most effective. Fuck these a-holes. Rights such as freedom etc are not inalienable. In Australia if you refuse you are charged as if you were over the legal limit. No ifs, ands or buts. Driving 2 tonnes of metal around at 60-100 kph is not an inherent right of man but a responsibility to be taken seriously.

@lantern53 Where were Bush's apologies? Didn't he say that history would be the judge hence no need to apologise? Also, the government is not some mythical separate entity from 'the people". America is the bastion of democracy, don't you agree? How are we to separate the actions of its people from its government? Democracy, especially one as purportedly strong as your own, implies consent if not endorsement.

@bcglorf The first point just restates what I said which I think we both agree on.

The second point about Pakistan has been over simplified to the point of misdirection. There are 3 domains of power in Pakistan; the ISI (Intelligence), the military and the government. The ISI largely controls the madrassahs and although there is a huge amount of violence in Pakistan at the moment (something you won't hear about in Western news broadcasts) the main area of contention there is about Kashmir. It has little if nothing to do with the USA. In fact the USA aids the Pakistan cause by their alliance with Pakistan in an attempt to oppose Chinese backed India. Further, charities does not automatically mean state-based endorsement. Its quite a stretch.

Plus, I can name many muslim nations that did not have spontaneous celebrations. Afghanistan for one. Sure maybe a few in Kabul got wind of it but as a nation they are still pretty much in the dark about the whole thing. Some more, Turkey (secular yes but muslim by demos), Azer Baijan, Sudan, Bosnia-Herzogoznia, Burkina Faso, Chad, Comoros, Gambia, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan, Mauritania, Somalia.... I'm sure there were lots of other countries that had spontaneous displays of celebration after 9/11... France, Cuba, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Venuzuela, Russia, Guatemala, Vietnam, Philippines, Laos, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Mexico, Serbia.

To paint any display of celebration with the brush of enemy eliminates any nuance or desire for understanding complex issues for the sake of post hoc raltionalisation of ones own immediate intuitions. Does the Westboro Baptist Church mean that America is no better than any of the Muslim nations you list? Of course not. To say as much as absurd. To see brown people doing the same is merely convenient.

The third point you seem to provide your own refutation. Drones etc do indeed fuel Al Queda. You admit as much. If the AL Qaeda aim is indeed about Pakistan and India (which I think you may be very confused about Al-Qaeda and its Pakistani brethren, two very separate entities with almost no commonality bar what we grant them). Al Qaeda in the Bin Laden days cared nothing for Pakistan. It was almost entirely focused on Saudi Arabia and only went to Afghanistan as a sort of Boys Own adventure club. They were the laughing stock of the Mujahaddin.

I agree with you @RedSky It has gone beyond the point of no return. I think Glen is effective in offering a correct diagnosis and a prevention for future incidents rather than a cure for this one.

@bcglorf You kind of lost it on the 2nd post. There's a lot of misinformation used there. Your first post is relevant insofar as Glenn is lying by omission. However, don't confuse omission for tacit endorsement. You are right that these are things that some people do and all people should know but sadly they don't. View this merely as a stepping stone towards greater acceptance of the facts; facts that a hell of a lot of Americans refuse to admit. So much so that it does not even enter the debate before "Why do you hate America" is thrown.

Because he has principles that trump national pride. To be proud of something you not only have to have done something to be proud of but also proven why you deserve to share in that pride other than exiting the right vagina at the right time and place. If, on the other hand, you take pride without due participation you must also accept the shame. Can anyone honestly say that the US has objectively done nothing to be ashamed of? At best more to be proud of than ashamed of but that does on abrogate responsibility for the latter.

@xxovercastxx Touche.

Really? So if Iran had a military base in the US would it just be about the threat to the US governments power or would there be a principle of non-interference, autonomy and, I hate to say it, national pride at stake?

Besides, it is now impossible to differentiate Al Queda from the exclusive entity it was pre-911 to the inclusive, against-the-West-and-you're-in animal it has become. Until 2003-4 it had no stance on Israel until it needed to recruit more people and used it as propaganda to get more people on board. With Saudi Arabia it had very achievable and pragmatic demands pre-911- get US forces out. In 2007 all but 20-40 troops exited. I feel that even with the complete withdrawal AQ would still find something else to protest in order to warrant their actions.

Women and children first was and never has been. This means that it was not the case on the Titanic.

Conscription on the other hand ....

Please understand that this guy was our Honey Boo-Boo.

18 wheeeeels of justice.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Rights based culture = entitlement culture.

The biker seems to be doing 50-60kph (35ish mph). I don't see how people think that he could possibly be at fault. That he didn't brake or avoid the collision in an obvious way in no way makes him culpable. He might have just thought "WTF" and didn't have his hand/foot on the brakes at that exact moment ready to emergency brake. Or maybe he was checking his mirrors. Fact is, the car pulled in front of the bike when it was evidently not safe to do so. The bike could have tried to swerve in which case he would have probably thought he'd hit the car with the camera.

Justice, astronaut style! Fancy calling a Korean air combat pilot (66 missions 2 frags) a coward. What a putz!

But we will let you kill brown people.