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Racism in UK -- Rapper Akala

Barbar says...

I agree in principle. I don't see how it could work out in practice, though. If we embargo Libya, it is ineffective because someone else will buy their oil, and effectively the only thing we impact is the economy and the plight of it's citizens, as we have clearly seen with Saddam. This will lead to further claims of racism because the people of the country are being made to suffer.

So, I suppose we could blockage them to really enforce their isolation. But unless we are willing to sink russian and chinese ships trading with them, all we are doing is issuing empty threats. And clearly if we do start sinking those ships, we will start wars and again be called racist.

The only alternative you leave, is to completely ignore their suffering, hope that nobody else intervenes for their own ends, and await the eventual overthrow of the government, which could take hundreds of years. This seems like the least empathetic and most disregarding approach imaginable. Being so afraid to do bad that one refuses to try to do good.

I think the most moral approach would perhaps be the most chauvinist of all. I'm thinking about Japan post WWII. But then I never bought into the post modern nihilistic view.

greatgooglymoogly said:

As far as the Libyan people go, people are pissed when a dictator is propped up by an outside power, and pissed when he is removed. This is a not a no-win situation; the winning move, much like the movie War Games, is to NOT FUCKING GET INVOLVED. It's a sovereign country, let them figure their own shit out. You don't want to trade with them or let any of your money go to their country, fine. But let the people choose their own destiny, do not impose it upon them because you believe you know what is right. This is not a race issue, one of basic human self-determination.

Racism in UK -- Rapper Akala

Barbar says...

The UK has done a much better job in handling the situation than the US has, it seems, though it has had more time to do so than the southern US. I don't think they achieved it by implementing systemic racism in the opposite direction, though. And let's be clear, even though we may feel justified in kicking out higher achieving students to replace them with a quota-satisfying minority group, that is systemically racist, the very thing we are trying to abolish. It is a clear example of committing a wrong to hopefully achieve a right. And it will never feel like anything short of racism to the individual student that gets short changed.

So let's say that it works, and black folk begin to integrate more successfully into the encompassing community, and the encompassing communities don't end up resenting them for the racist laws that are helping them to do s . Will we ever be remove these racist rules? Or will we be arguing about an ever small statistical deviation somewhere? Furthermore, all of the people that are unjustly damaged by these new racist rules (ie. Ashley), won't they then be due reparations in the future too? Who would pay those? Where would it end? Would it end?

I just doubt that more racism is the cure for racism.

Engels said:

Well we seem to be devolving into miscommunication, so let's all be clear! bareboards2, I was not singling you out at all. In fact, you have by and large been the image of civility, so much so that I picture you with a monocle while writing your missives to us.

I too think that MonkeySpank (god help us all) seems to have the most historical and accurate interpretation of the situation; one does not traumatize a people, be they Jews or African Americans for decades and decades and decades and then expect them to up and happily integrate. There's a reckoning that has to happen, and I am sorry if your lilly white ass didn't personally own slaves, you were born into a societal architecture created by those who did and you can't pretend the playing field is level. You can stare at your voting right's act, you can belly ache about how Ashley with her 3.5 didn't get into U State university while a minority did, but it doesn't change the fact that that there's a lot of redress to be done, and it'll take a LONG time to remedy. We have some signs of improvement, with prominent African American politicians and intellectuals taking the stage and garnering universal respect, but that's the tip of the iceberg, and we have a LONG way to go.

Racism in UK -- Rapper Akala

Barbar says...

Good point.

I don't dispute racism exists, and its effects are amplified by power and reach. There is a difference between quality and quantity when it comes to racism. Western racism seems of a low quality, but it generates a high quantity due to pragmatic reasons. Strangely, perhaps, I find this less reprehensible than high quality of racism that is mitigated by distance or political clout. That's definitely a bias I have.

EDIT:
I think the above video and my response to it demonstrate some of the problems in that stance. Akala confidently lists a collection of events that he clearly considers egregious. A subset of those I've addressed in my criticism, to varying extents. If detecting racism in our culture is disagreeing about how effective a foreign navy should be in it's coast guard duties on a foreign shore, perhaps we're disappearing down the rabbit hole. If detecting racism in our culture means finding a sub 1% discrepancy in prison death rates in a small sample size, then it could be we're missing the forest for the trees.
It isn't to say that there aren't still problems in western culture, but we are teaching ourselves to cry wolf constantly, and we know where that leads.

Racism in UK -- Rapper Akala

Barbar says...

I'm far enough away from these issues to admit that I don't have anything like concrete knowledge on the subject, but I feel like I should mention some of the more obvious counterpoints to some of the things he's said in this video. Otherwise I'd get that dirty echo chamber feeling, and no amount of showering seems to wash that away. Could be I'm just a masochist, though, who enjoys arguing.

I think there's racism in every culture. I think it's often much more subtle than described in the video, often even subconscious. I also think that modern western culture is among the least racist cultures to have ever existed, despite our many complaints.

I guess I'll talk about Libya first. The west (the white people he was talking about) is continuously demonized for supporting tyrants and the like. Yet when they participate in overthrowing a clear example of a extravagant super villain tyrant, they are demonized for that. I'm not saying they didn't have other motives, I'm just saying that it's an example of a tautology. No matter which choice they make they are labeled racist.

Now, when beleaguered folk make a desperate attempt to dangerously cross a sea, well knowing the risks they are incurring, it is again the fault of the Italians for not rescuing then with sufficient alacrity. Yes, many of them are coming from countries the west had a hand in destabilizing. But it would be pretty racist for you to demand that the Italian navy take full moral responsibility for the actions of other western nations, simply because they are white too. Also, if the only number you pay attention to is the number that drown, your bias is showing.

Next the issue of the Commonwealth. It seems absurd to expect the UK to treat former colonies populated by citizens that had moved there the same as former conquests that have since shrugged off the yoke of empire. The justifications for this discrimination would seem to be a combination of racism, cultural chauvinism and sober pragmatism. The latter two factors clearly scale with the gap between the culture of the colony in question and the home country, and probably ought to in some sense.

The incarceration thing is tougher to poke holes in, and clearly a much more touchy subject. Once could argue all sorts of justifications for why more members of ethnic minorities are apprehended, but it's nebulous and smells of bias and chauvinism, at best ending in a chicken vs egg conundrum. But once you're in police custody, I think can agree on demanding a higher level of equality of outcome. So I checked out a charity called Inquest who had compiled pretty comprehensive stats on police custody deaths since 1990. Here's a link: http://www.inquest.org.uk/statistics/bame-deaths-in-police-custody
To summarise, since 1990, ethnic minorities have made up a total of 153 out of 1557 deaths in police custody, or roughly 10%. Given that they currently make up 13% of the population, that seems to be well within an acceptable range of results, so I was confused at first. Then I thought maybe he had misspoken and had meant to say state custody, or inmate deaths. So again I looked for some numbers, and again Inquest had the most comprehensive data, broken down by year and ethnicity etc. Again here's a link: http://www.inquest.org.uk/statistics/deaths-in-prison
It shows 453 out of 3963 prison deaths are suffered by ethnic minorities. This seems almost perfectly in line with the 13% population of said minorities. So again, I'm a bit confused by the point he's making.

All of that said, I think I agree with the sentiment of his presentation, which perhaps confuses me even more.

Stephen Colbert Is Genuinely Freaked Out About The Brexit

Barbar says...

Thanks for taking the time.
I've grown so sick of identity politics and the use of bad names to disqualify other people from having opinions (I'm sure I've done it myself). I appreciate the measured tone.

radx said:

...

Stephen Colbert Is Genuinely Freaked Out About The Brexit

Barbar says...

Sometimes I find Google hard.

I've only be able to find one pole that actually discusses the underlying reasons for people voting one way or the other, and it used wide categories. It showed that the biggest leave reason was to regain control over immigration policy, and the second most important was to regain control over law-making powers. Those sound like legitimate concerns to me.

I'm guessing their are more polls out there. Maybe you could point me at the ones you're talking about? I watch the related radx post (I could only find the Mark Blyth interview), but it seemed to support my current understanding of the situation.

ChaosEngine said:

I would argue that the UK would still have been better off IN the EU than out of it, but I fully agree that there are valid reasons to question the EU. Read some of @radx's posts... he eloquently outlines some of the fundamental problems with it.

That said, that's not why people voted to leave. Opinion polls show that people overwhelmingly voted to leave based on xenophobia and lies.

Stephen Colbert Is Genuinely Freaked Out About The Brexit

Barbar says...

I don't know what was the right decision. The fear mongering on both sides of the aisle makes it hard to appraise. But I don't get how people can't understand those that voted to leave. It seems like needlessly divisive hyperbole. Welcome to politics, I suppose.

In their shoes I would be concerned with the ongoing erosion of sovereignty over their lives. It seems indisputable that the further removed the decision makers are from the people, the less those people not only feel, and the less those people will actually be in charge. It also seems indisputable that more decisions were being taken by remote decision makers as time went on.

Again, one may have reasons to disagree, but to not understand it seems to say far more about the one failing to understand than anyone else.

ChaosEngine said:

Good article, but Greenwald is missing one key point:
it's not just the "media elite" who can't understand the Leave vote. Most "normal" people outside England and Wales are perplexed by this too.

Talk to the average person on the street in Ireland, Scotland, France, Germany, etc. and they'll tell you the same things:
a) the leave vote was the wrong decision
b) it was brought about through fear mongering and lies

So that leaves two possibilities:

1. the rest of the EU are media-brainwashed idiots and the people who saw the light were Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson and the kind of people now screaming racist abuse at "foreigners" (aka anyone non-white or with a foreign ancestry even if they were born in the UK).

or

2. it really was a dumb idea.

Two Veterans Debate Trump and his beliefs. Wowser.

Barbar says...

War crime laws are an interesting concept. They're ignored when a real war is fought, and pretty much exclusively applied to the losing side alone afterwards. They serve as a tool to demonize and justify military action after the dust has settled, allowing the victors to say that they had just cause in committing all of their own atrocities. I'd be curious (and likely horrified) to see how far the US would go if it actually had to fight a war it had a chance of losing.

Elon Musk Explains Why We're Probably Living In A Video Game

Barbar says...

I don't know as much about this argument as I'd like, but my gripe with it is that it assumes that there is a more efficient way of modeling reality, with 100% fidelity, than reality itself. It seems a lot to implicitly take onboard. How could you model the exact position of some subatomic particle without involving at least one such subatomic particle?

Elon Musk Explains Why We're Probably Living In A Video Game

Barbar says...

Not exactly. He's saying that, given his premises, there will be many many more simulated worlds. Therefore you're left without much likelihood your experience is in the real one and not a 'matrix'.

RedSky said:

So, because it's possible, it's highly likely? We have the nuclear capacity to destroy the world several times over but we haven't done it.

The story of Ken M, the Internet's greatest troll

Astonishing, Giant, Human-powered Theme Park

Trump Transforms for the General Election: A Closer Look

Barbar says...

Could be lots of things that they left out of the clip that support their argument. I don't doubt there is. I'm just saying they're goofs for choosing those clips to portray him. If someone looks at those clips, and doesn't know the backstory, it looks like shoddy. At best it looks poorly done, and at worse it looks deceptive.

newtboy said:

Actually, he's said clearly and repeatedly that wages are too HIGH in the US and should go down, so any inkling that he thinks we should raise them in any way is a 180 switch. It's also a total cop out that he could use for any topic....'I'll just leave it all to the states....so I don't have to do a damn thing as president and nothing I say makes any difference.'
It should be no surprise to anyone. He's written about how he operates, and not keeping your word and changing your position by the moment while insisting everyone else follows along with his 'new deals' is a large part of that methodology....as is lying about facts and threatening anyone that contradicts him with lawsuits or just 'taking his ball and going home' (which doesn't work when you are in business or government) etc.
The whole 'self funding' thing was a fraud from the beginning....and a clear one. He LOANED his campaign money, he didn't spend his own money. He ALWAYS planned to pay himself back with private donations, and you can be sure he's paying himself an enormous interest and massive 'fees' on those 'loans', which means he's actually MAKING money on the campaign, not spending a dime of his own. You can be certain he'll get every dime back and then some....no question.

Also....you should note, this is not a news program (not that they're better) so should not be subject to the requirements of fact, honesty, and clarity we SHOULD (but don't) insist on with 'news' organizations.

Trump Transforms for the General Election: A Closer Look

Barbar says...

He's a bit of a nut for sure, but I'm getting sick of this style of coverage.

He says he wouldn't raise the minimum wage [federally], then he says he thinks it's an issue that should be decided state by state. That doesn't sound like a change in position to me. That just sounds to me like he wants the minimum wage to accommodate local factors.

I don't know much about Trump. I'm not even American. If someone puts together a montage like this to undermine a political figure and the very information they present me with runs against the narrative they're selling, it's shoddy workmanship.

Daily Show - Sexism on the Soccer Field

Barbar says...

Late addition, but I've seen something relevant recently.

Here's a link to a video that better explains what's up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72UPxDFPKDs

In short, the world cup for women is held one year after the world cup for men. So men have a boom year, then women have a boom year, then they each have a couple so so years. What has happened is that they have compared the earnings in a women's world cup year to give them something to stand on. Obviously this makes it seem like women earn more. They completely ignore the previous year, which shows men vastly out earning women, to a degree far surpassing the difference in wages. Completely dishonest propaganda. The Daily Show has really fallen far since the loss of Mr Stewart.



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