dude hit the space bar a little !



In reply to this comment by NinjaInHeat:
You people amaze me, you sound like right-wing politicians...
To rougy: for you a piece of clothing is just a piece of clothing, you barely manage to go 2 sentences without showing your whole point is based on your disdain for Muslims, even if I agreed with you and hated Muslims with all my heart it would still have nothing to do with this discussion, you would not approve of teachers asking someone to remove a Yamaka, a cross or anything else.
As for the rest of you, what the fuck is this bullshit bringing up identification in the class room as a problem? fuck me, you're right, how else would they know it's her? they couldn't come up with some simple solution like having her unveil herself to the teachers in private before the test or any of a hundred other solutions a 12 year old could come up with, no! this is the only way!
Her voice is muffled? she can speak up.
We're not talking about bringing a knife to school where I could see the arguments towards safety of others, we're not talking about shaded gym windows, where it's a case of the subjects forcing their ways actively on others (believe me, Israel is packed full of this bullshit, I would be the last one to argue for it).
Stop treating this issue like children, at the very least understand that this sort of behavior is very clearly the manifestation of bigotry, the practical reasoning behind it is moronic. She isn't some lunatic who made up a religion and its tenets yesterday and is demanding they be recognized. For fuck's sake she is seeking education, how retarded is it to deny it of her? Especially when you understand that she has no choice, when faced with such a restriction she would sooner abandon education than abandon her faith... is that not an appropriate place to draw a line?

>> ^Matthu:
Or we could just have people keep their faces unconcealed when in public. >> ^burdturgler:
I think everyone should just give their dna to the government and be implanted with a chip that identifies everything they do. Ideally it would transmit thoughts as well, and then people like you could decide whether what I'm thinking is ok or not.



It's fucking HILARIOUS, you making a point about identifying people in public, and I don't even know if it's you or your girlfriend that I'm responding to.
You're the only one here posting with two people on the same account. Maybe something should be done about that.

Or we could just have people keep their faces unconcealed when in public. >> ^burdturgler:
I think everyone should just give their dna to the government and be implanted with a chip that identifies everything they do. Ideally it would transmit thoughts as well, and then people like you could decide whether what I'm thinking is ok or not.

>> ^burdturgler:
Again .. great point .. just like the whole voter fraud ballot box fingerprinting thing .. but really bullshit in context with the video. And with the entire discussion. The fact that people cheat on tests isn't in question. The fact is the Niqab is not the problem. I guarantee you that teachers don't tell students to remove their yamakas.


How are you realistically going to tell the difference between Student A and her sister when they're both wearing Niqab? Fingerprinting is too tedious, voice ID too unreliable.

Note that this debate circle mostly around rights in the public services.

Some events that been push through this debate's strainer since some years now, to name a few:
A young Sikh men brought is Kirpan(tradional knife) to the elementary school. Should he be allowed to do so ?
In name of religion, a Muslim man refused to pass his driver's license test with a woman instructor.
Orthodox Jews required that windows giving view to women exercising be shaded in a community gym
Some muslims community are asking to be legally freed from work or study for the Friday noon prayer and be accommodate to do so.
In Ontario some people are legaly charge upon the Charia, should the Quebec allow such thing

Actual "Liberal" government (traditionally on the right) (generally get the early generation immigrant electorate) push the so called "reasonable accommodation" policy in public services kind of by opposition to the France "secular" policy in the public services. Reasonable accomodation advocate the right of expression in public services of religious symbol for main religion. The nationalist party (traditionally on the left)is pandering to the right wing of its party (the openly progressive and pro-union wing have been expelled from the party last week) and it's feeding what i'd called a negative nationalism which go along intolerance and racism on this issue.

This debate is now raging for more than a year here, although I didn't get into it, for the terms of the debate are completely distorted by partisan politics, and intermingled with emotional response arising from the erosion, or the fear of it, of "traditional culture". Consequences of a geopolitical-cultural encirclement and the ever-growing cultural and economic globalization.

So I didn't thought thoroughly about it. As for now, the questions i'm asking myself, is to where you draw the line ? What if my belief says that I should go naked to school ? Which beliefs will have rights and which won't ?

Hope that your distance will enable my fellow sifters to see clearer in this debate and help me by ricochet.

Red

This was an interesting perspective from an older Montreal woman (written in french) who talks about how women in Canada, specifically Quebec with its strong Catholic background, fought for certain rights, and freedom from restrictive Catholic influence: the right to divorce, the wearing of a veil in church, the right to sign for your own medical consent etc.

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/le-soleil/opinions/points-de-vue/200907/24/01-887086-je-ne-suis-pas-raciste-mais-jai-peur.php

>> ^burdturgler:
Is there really a huge wave of test impersonators using a Muslim Niqab? I call bullshit on that.

It's not the Niqab in specifically, but proxy exam taking is one of the most common cheats, and I would know because I've been teaching at a university for 6 years. Niqab is just something that would facilitate the sort of cheating that is already a problem. It is also common practice to ask students to remove all hats during exams so that their eyes can be seen to not wander when they are hunched over an exam paper. In a smaller class they don't need to ID card people, because the teacher knows everybody's name by sight, unless their face is always covered.

Also, I imagine that when instructing students in a foreign language on phonetics it would be very helpful to see how they are moving their mouth so that you can correct them if that is part of the problem.

Is there really a huge wave of test impersonators using a Muslim Niqab? I call bullshit on that. I also call bullshit on the Niqab being an impediment to communication. They're not taking acting classes. Don't tell me you can't hear what's being said through a veil. It's not a muzzle. It's a thin piece of cloth. I hear my stupid neighbors arguing across the fucking street every day. If you want to make this about security you have a real problem, because like I said, the onus is on them to provide security and that means everyone needs to be identified before the test, but they are not trying to identify everybody.

" There is a difference between private beliefs/practice and public behavior. Public behaviors are subject to reasonable regulation regardless of whether they originate from a religious belief or some other idea." ... "The only difference between a religious practice and an arbitrary choice is how many people follow it." ...

This custom has been around for over a thousand years. Long before the foundation to these schools were poured. In fact, longer than many nations have existed. It doesn't really matter, justifying these rights is part of the problem. They already ARE rights. Taking rights away is the issue and you all should be concerned when any government starts telling you what you can wear.

>> ^jwray:
There are some issues with covering your entire face in a classroom:
1. It would be easy for an upperclassman substitute to take an exam for you. This is a common method of cheating in large lectures where the teacher doesn't know people's names. ID badges would accomplish nothing at all, as you can give your ID badge to the impostor and the exam taker cannot be seen except for her eyes. DNA, retinal scans, and fingerprinting are a little bit too high tech for this specific application. The most realistic solution is to reveal the face of the test-taker so that it can be matched against the picture ID. Voice identification might be a viable alternative, but it is much more difficult to match a voice than to match a face.
2. It impedes communication severely by hiding all facial expressions and muffling the voice.

Additionally:
3. There is a difference between private beliefs/practice and public behavior. Public behaviors are subject to reasonable regulation regardless of whether they originate from a religious belief or some other idea.
4. Rastafarians don't get exemptions from relevant regulations for their arbitrary religious dogmas involving marajuana, either.
5. The only difference between a religious practice and an arbitrary choice is how many people follow it. What if I decide that my new religion is skivinism, whose religious practice is to skip class every Wednesday. The teacher better not mark me down for it, or he's voliating my FREEDOM OF RELIGION! If practices based on religious beliefs must be granted exemptions from various regulations, then so must practices based on individual ideas. There is nowhere to draw the line along the continuum from individual nutter, to small cult, to large cult, to small religion, to large organized religion.

>> ^NinjaInHeat:
Of course, when Muslims' personal freedoms are violated it's very amusing! let's still be politically correct here and say that she should definitely be allowed to wear it even though it's very silly, tee hee, silly backwards woman with her silly religion. And for all you morons trying to equate this to the wearing of a cap in class or the legitimacy of having someone show his face to whoever's teaching them - are you insane? You'd think she walked into class wearing it as some sort of political statement. When you wear a cap in class you're a douchebag, this is her way, her belief, no one gives a crap about whether you think it is legitimate or not, no one cares if you feel her backwards culture indoctrinated her into a subjugated life style, how is forcing her to remove it any different than forcing her to wear it? And if a teacher is deluded enough to refuse teaching someone who wears religious paraphernalia he/she should not be allowed to teach.


Bullshit.

Clothing is clothing, and if the prof is going to tell me to take off my ball cap it's no different than telling her to take off her mask.

And tough shit, too.

People are being imprisoned in Dubai for kissing in public or, most recently, sending sexy text messages to each other.

Muslim or not, she's living in the western world and she may as well learn to live by its customs.

When you move to a country, you live by its rules, so stop bitching about not getting special treatment.

Why does she want to learn French anyway? She's going to live her entire life as a slave to a backwards religion.

>> ^NinjaInHeat:
... how is forcing her to remove it any different than forcing her to wear it? ...

Exactly. Could not have said it better.

Don't give in to those established bastards. Seriously, I upvoted your comment here. Whenever, I say anything the least bit reactionary to some established piece of bullshit, I get the same treatment. Solidarity.

In reply to this comment by Matthu:
This is a dirty, cheap argument and people like you who make such arguments, are what holds back progress in this world.

I could make the claim that eating dogs shouldn't be illegal because, well, what's stopping someone who really likes chickens from putting forth a motion to ban eating chicken based on the same arguments against eating dogs. It's not the same fucking thing. That's what.

Let's keep going. Why the fuck is it illegal to walk away from my dogs shit without picking it up, but he can piss wherever he please! Wtf is this bullshit? Both are excremental. It's time people start carrying around a bucket of soapy water and a sponge because, god willing, I WON'T STAND FOR THIS INCONSISTENCY.

Okay just one more in case you actually are dumb, and aren't just a self-serving sophist pig. It's illegal to carry a concealed machete in the streets. Well wait, hold on! Why's it illegal to conceal a machete up your sleeve while strolling in the streets but I can carry a mag lite? Both are tools.

HEY GOVERNMENT! YOU BETTER BE CONSISTENT HERE, IF YOU'RE GOING TO BAN A TOOL, YOU'D BETTER BAN ALL TOOLS.

In fact mods, let's start by banning this tool.

tl;dr Nose piercings and saggie pants serve completely different purposed from the niqab.
>> ^Stormsinger:
"I think wearing those things are right stupid and degrades the person wearing it. whatever its intent is ; its ridiculous."
I feel the same way about nose piercings, but I see no reason to force everyone to live to -my- standards.
To be consistent, if you support institutions forcing people to remove certain clothing, you also must support outlawing color combinations worn by gangs, and outlawing the wearing of sagging pants that is so popular among the wannabee gangstas today. Are you ready to allow colleges to outlaw wearing red & black outfits?

This is a dirty, cheap argument and people like you who make such arguments, are what holds back progress in this world.

I could make the claim that eating dogs shouldn't be illegal because, well, what's stopping someone who really likes chickens from putting forth a motion to ban eating chicken based on the same arguments against eating dogs. It's not the same fucking thing. That's what.

Let's keep going. Why the fuck is it illegal to walk away from my dogs shit without picking it up, but he can piss wherever he please! Wtf is this bullshit? Both are excremental. It's time people start carrying around a bucket of soapy water and a sponge because, god willing, I WON'T STAND FOR THIS INCONSISTENCY.

Okay just one more in case you actually are dumb, and aren't just a self-serving sophist pig. It's illegal to carry a concealed machete in the streets. Well wait, hold on! Why's it illegal to conceal a machete up your sleeve while strolling in the streets but I can carry a mag lite? Both are tools.

HEY GOVERNMENT! YOU BETTER BE CONSISTENT HERE, IF YOU'RE GOING TO BAN A TOOL, YOU'D BETTER BAN ALL TOOLS.

In fact mods, let's start by banning this tool.

tl;dr Nose piercings and saggie pants serve completely different purposed from the niqab.
>> ^Stormsinger:
"I think wearing those things are right stupid and degrades the person wearing it. whatever its intent is ; its ridiculous."
I feel the same way about nose piercings, but I see no reason to force everyone to live to -my- standards.
To be consistent, if you support institutions forcing people to remove certain clothing, you also must support outlawing color combinations worn by gangs, and outlawing the wearing of sagging pants that is so popular among the wannabee gangstas today. Are you ready to allow colleges to outlaw wearing red & black outfits?

And Jian also speaks French fluently, and I think he did pronounce it in French. The C was just too close to the EEE and sounded like Lewis E K >> ^Drachen_Jager:
>> ^MilkmanDan:
Must not be in Quebec, or they'd have pronounced his name 'Lou-eee' -- which I believe through watching him before and a quick google search he prefers.

It's a national show Dan, done in Ontario I believe. Jian is a musician turned broadcaster (from Moxy Fruvous, quite a cool band back in the day).

>> ^MilkmanDan:
Must not be in Quebec, or they'd have pronounced his name 'Lou-eee' -- which I believe through watching him before and a quick google search he prefers.


It's a national show Dan, done in Ontario I believe. Jian is a musician turned broadcaster (from Moxy Fruvous, quite a cool band back in the day).

Must not be in Quebec, or they'd have pronounced his name 'Lou-eee' -- which I believe through watching him before and a quick google search he prefers.