*quality

You can be my Wingman anytime.

Dog fighting does not exist, and has not existed since WW1.

Even in WW2, planes attacked in passes. They start up high, fly down to pick up speed, attack and keep flying so that the enemy cannot catch them.

As that is happening, another pair of planes is already on it's way to make another pass.

Planes do not chase each other dodging around like X-wings and Tie Fighters. Because as soon as you do that their wingman shoots you down.

TopGun trains pilots in BFM and team work skills, not so much dog fighting. While one v one dog-fighting is part of learning good team work skills and becoming familiar with different scenarios, it isn't the focus.

In Vietnam, the missiles and radars were unreliable and missile had to be fired from a fairly close range. That hasn't been the case for some 30 years now, with missiles getting better all of the time with some insane ranges upwards of 80 miles. The plane is becoming more of a launch platform for missiles than anything else. That's why every fighter plane after the F-4 was designed that way primarily. The worlds best fighter is still the F-15 which has a massive radar and the best missiles. And less maneuverability than the F-16. Because they know dog fighting does not happen.



The scenario you mentioned where the planes are flying close together is not realistic - close in air to air combat is 100 miles.

Especially if the enemy plane has better maneuverability(which all Russian planes do already do anyway, apart from the F-16 if lightly loaded).
Pilots know very well the strengths of their planes, they would never put them in a position like that. They would be pinging each other to make their presence known (if a show of force was the desired effect) from over 100 miles away.


None of this makes the F-35 a good plane by any means. But I just don't agree with the reasoning in the comments here and in the media.

For example people keep mentioning the "Jack of all trades" issue. But they ignore the fact that ALL fighter planes built over the last 40 years have been turned into jack of all trades through necessity. Yet nobody criticizes them for it.

I mostly fly the same simulators as the US national guard does. So I'm hoping that it's accurate. But more than that I read a lot of books written by pilots about air to air and air to ground engagements. Which makes me more knowledgeable than 99.99% of the journalists reporting on the F-35. You'll notice that most aviation specific sites don't tend to bag out the F-35 because have a much better idea of how air combat works than the regular media sites.

EDIT: I was not aware they were ignoring failed tests. That's pretty worrying. Do you have more info on it I can read about?

The F-35 can fly both faster, and slower than the F-16, and longer at high angles of attack that would stall most planes. It although can't out accelerate the F-16 though since F-35 is heavier. But having the best acceleration isn't really a factor in modern air combat, where missiles are being thrown at each other from any between 20-100+km's range. As long as you can accelerate good enough, which being a fighter plane it can.

The F-35's afterburner-less supersonic speed is more important in a BVR(beyond visual range) engagement, since that's what allows you to put more distance between you and an enemy missile. The idea being that you fly perpendicular to a missile making it cover more ground and it runs out of fuel and speed so it falls out of the sky before it can reach you. Of course to lock onto a stealth plane you'd need to be quite close in the first place, by which time it would have shot you down, at least that's the theory.

If it comes to a close range scenario, say enemy AWACS manages to detect the F-35s, and direct a bunch of enemy fighters through a set of mountains to sneak up on the F-35s. And a visual range or even dog fight ensues. Then the F-35 would use a short range missile that can turn 90+ degrees and shoot behind itself . Which no other plane can do since all of the sensors are forward facing on all other planes.

But you're of course right, there is always eventually going to be a way of countering the stealth advantage, it's an arms race after all. Most likely it will be countered by some kind of cheap jamming drone swarming, which would make the F-35s sensors useless, and missiles too few, forcing the engagements to happen at shorter ranges.


------------------

What I mean by dog fighting is a one on one engagement where each plane is trying to furiously out maneuver the other. That is a rare occurrence. There is a WW2 era video that explains the tactics used that make the one on one style dog fighting obsolete. https://youtu.be/C_iW1T3yg80?t=530

The planes have a system where as soon as one plane is engage by an enemy, then your wingman, or a spare clean up squadron comes and mops it up, since the enemy makes it self an easy target when engaging a friendly.

*handing over some tissues while giving you the wingman nod*

It was a similar story on July 24th 1993 at Fairford, when two MiG-29s of the Russian Air Force Russian Swifts aerobatic team collided in mid-air and crashed, but safely away from the public. Incredibly no one was injured on the ground and both MiG-29 pilots (Alexander Beschastonov and Sergey Tresvyatsk) ejected from their aircraft. Aircraft investigators highlighted that pilot error was to blame where it was shown on video that one pilot had carried out a reverse loop and flew into clouds, whereas the other pilot lost visual contact with his wingman and aborted the display performance.

My Logitech Wingman Extreme is sitting on a shelf just waiting for another TIE Fighter.

>> ^braindonut:

I want a new Tie Fighter so bad... SO bad...
And none of this stupid arcade action. Joystick, keyboard... just like the old days, but new graphics.
I want this SO bad.


I still have my Wingman Extreme sitting high on a shelf, just waiting for a new PC Tie Fighter or MechWarrior. Single player campaigns/missions, LAN, no consolitis bullshit, FULLY configurable keyboard and controller assignments. I don't even care if it's purty. Just don't let LucasArts, Ubisoft, id, EA, Blizzard, or Microsoft anywhere near it.

>> ^GenjiKilpatrick:

I don't get the nosebleed part


I assume the sun glasses threw too hard to make his nose bleed.

Its like Eminem and Dr. Dre
If I loved you more I might be gay
And when I'm feeling down
You know just want to say
You my homie, Yeah you know me
And if you ever need a wingman
I'd let any girl blow me off
Cus you're more important than the rest
I confess, I'm a mess
If I'm not hanging with my BFF
You know its true, you my male boo,
Now sing the chorus with me if you're feeling the same way too.

Bromance, nothing really gay about it
Not, that there's anything wrong with being gay
Bromance, SHouldn't be ashamed or hide it
I love you in the most heterosexual way.

Hold me
To a promise that I"ll be the kind of the friend that in the end
Will always keep you company
Because when the world gets tough
And times get hard
I will always love you, I'll be your bodyguard
Cus you're my bestie, and if you test me
I'll prove it time and time again, I got your back until the end
A brotha from anotha motha never knew how much I loved ya
Till i started singing this song... huh?

Bromance, nothing really gay about it
Not, that there's anything wrong with being gay
Bromance, SHouldn't be ashamed or hide it
I love you in the most heterosexual way.

Now that I told you how I feel
Hope you feel the same way too
BUT if you dont, this song was just a joke
BUT if you do, I LOVE YOU

Thanks for the promote! *taunt

In reply to this comment by MycroftHomlz:
*promote...

Your video, The Ultimate Wingman, has made it into the Top 15 New Videos listing. Congratulations on your achievement. For your contribution you have been awarded 1 Power Point.

That's why I keep a universal translator in the bedroom.

>> ^ponceleon:

I could have called the French one failing: you know women... always learning French and shit...

How else can you show off your muscles?
>> ^blankfist:

I'd have left the shirt on.

Neato! I knew this thread had the could be a generator of information.

>> ^bareboards2:

From my ex-military pilot, currently sim military pilot trainer big brother, in response to this vid:
My Fuel Boom Operator Friend says the static discharge is no biggie, he would plug this guy and give him all the fuel he wants. He wouldn't let him close within a 1/2 mile without seeing him though. Once he sees him he will let the vis drop a bit more. He estimates the video is showing greater than 1/2 mile vis. Which means he would be closing on a radar return outside of the 1/2 mile point - skin paint only. The WX radar has to be off when he gets this close. Theoretically, the WX Radar might trigger a big boom.
I dumped fuel inflight in the vicinity of lightning once as we were in a world of hurt (Unsafe gear, no brakes, hydraulic leak all over said gear and brakes) - and there were no rules against it - and since I didn't blow up no new rules were written. This was my best opportunity to have my own WARNING in the aircraft manual - they are usually written in someone's blood.
I had an F-111 driver tell me the story about when he was frustrated with his wing man during a rejoin because his wingman couldn't find him in the weather at night. His dump mast was between the engines near the exhaust. So he hit dump, turned ff fuel dump, and then quickly went to afterburners. He claims the resulting fuel air blast could be seen with your eyes closed.

From my ex-military pilot, currently sim military pilot trainer big brother, in response to this vid:

My Fuel Boom Operator Friend says the static discharge is no biggie, he would plug this guy and give him all the fuel he wants. He wouldn't let him close within a 1/2 mile without seeing him though. Once he sees him he will let the vis drop a bit more. He estimates the video is showing greater than 1/2 mile vis. Which means he would be closing on a radar return outside of the 1/2 mile point - skin paint only. The WX radar has to be off when he gets this close. Theoretically, the WX Radar might trigger a big boom.

I dumped fuel inflight in the vicinity of lightning once as we were in a world of hurt (Unsafe gear, no brakes, hydraulic leak all over said gear and brakes) - and there were no rules against it - and since I didn't blow up no new rules were written. This was my best opportunity to have my own WARNING in the aircraft manual - they are usually written in someone's blood.

I had an F-111 driver tell me the story about when he was frustrated with his wing man during a rejoin because his wingman couldn't find him in the weather at night. His dump mast was between the engines near the exhaust. So he hit dump, turned ff fuel dump, and then quickly went to afterburners. He claims the resulting fuel air blast could be seen with your eyes closed.