LOL, nice try but been there and done that I'm not going to either debate it with you or get pissed, just point out this small detail.

Proof that Obama isn't a citizen? That kind of proof? Because that's what you need. Short of that it's been to the courts and you're beating a dead horse as if it means something then waving around terms like proof which you don't seem to understand in an effort, to what? Intimidate others with your expertise? Or to just have some fun and see what you can stir up? Hard to say and it doesn't matter.

You expect people to simply disregard a citizenship that has been accepted by everyone from State authorities who put him on the ballot to the Supreme Court when they decided no information presented to them presented cause for doubt, and we're to ignore that because it *might* have been forged. it's happened before? Gee slick, when it happened before do you think maybe someone actually proved it, or just said it and assumed it was so?

I'm sorry I wasn't here for the start of this debate, but I don't think I'll offer you another day of it. And I'm surprised they offered you the last. It was a valiant effort on your part though, be it for fun or serious. Congrats for that

I don't know what your trip is Stali.. the battle of Stalingrad being valiantly fought and won by Russia is taught in World History courses throughout America. Get off your Westerners are oblivious to world events horse.

The valiant Messiah sighs heavily at the terrible evil and racism that is America, for He is the first Presidential hopeful in history against which any kind of threat has been leveled! And all because of the color of his skin...

The sympathetic White liberal journalist, having already "forgiven" the inevitable riots no matter who wins, grieves for the burden carried by the 21st century fusion of Lincoln, Marx and Donny Osmond.

If only these authentic journalists took the threats of islamofascism and open borders as seriously as they do a couple of yahoos...

and i would like to add, that unjust wars discredit the perpetrator, so that if a real war is necessary in future, you're fucked and you can't do your brave valiant democracy defending even if you are in the right next time.

The communists invaded many countries during their reign of terror, because capitalism was "unjust" and "exploited the worker." 100 million dead later, thankfully one of the two major communist countries is no more.

I'm sure every convicted killer on death row feels that the State putting him to death is an "unjust" act. No matter what the USA does, someone ain't gonna like it. What's done is done, and some will condemn it and others approve.

Before 9-11, the USA foolishly neglected its duty to protect itself. After 9-11, the hands-off approach wasn't going to fly. For the record, I'm not tying 9-11 directly to Iraq but to the increase in danger of the world's political climate.

so why not prosecute the war in iraq justly if justice is your cause?

By doing what, exactly? Saddam had 12 years to comply with inspections. What did all those UN Resolutions do to thwart him? Nothing.

Have you noticed the UN is worthless?

Militarily they're a toothless lot of blue-helmeted security guards.

On the political front, it's elected a host of 3rd-world savages and despots who conveniently blame "the West" for their own despotism.

You're confusing the garbage UN of now with a fictional enlightened future world-body.

Would it be reasonable to say that you can't have a world community with yahoos like Saddam running around threatening neighboring countries and firing rifles into the air?

SO perhaps we can agree that there is such thing as a justifiable war, but this is not it, and this has fucked things up bigtime.

Before 9-11, I'd agree with you that invading Iraq would be too costly, especially with unclear goals. Not that we ever should've taken the islamofacist threat lightly, after 9-11 we weren't going to wait around for another attack. And so we've erased a pesky dictator and helped a Middle East nation take its first baby steps toward a government that serves its people, and it's to the USA's disadvantage that we're helping build a republic and not another monarchy. The Iraqis' problems now are the problems of freedom.

I served in the RAF cadets by the way. Hardly pacifist. But i didn't join the regulars because I was nervous about politicians sending me to my grave in a fucking corrupt oil war, pretending i am defending liberty while cynically profiting from my death.

That's your personal choice based on your life experience. Fair enough.

In reply to this comment by MINK:
and i would like to add, that unjust wars discredit the perpetrator, so that if a real war is necessary in future, you're fucked and you can't do your brave valiant democracy defending even if you are in the right next time...

Valiant effort.

Or something.

I do hope I didn't have a hand in scaring him off, because it was never my intent. In any case, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the valiant return of our time-god.

Thanks Choggie for your valiant attempt at political commentary. I know it's not your forte, but an A for effort all the same. If I need a recipe on how to cook day old skunk or how to seduce a cousin, I'll let you know.

I agree with your statement Kreegath.

However what is most striking to me is how torture and it's legal application within the current administration goes against American ideals in the 20th century and legally for over 250 years.

During the last century Americans valiantly against these coercive means collectively pointing to them as techniques only utilized by the Nazis, the Khmer Rouge, the VC and the Soviet Union. The US pushed for and developed the Geneva conventions that abolished torture.

But within the span of a few short years they threw out what took decades to create. The Americans no longer can look at themselves as the good guys when it comes to the issue of human rights.

Worst still the President now puts himself above the law, above the house, above the senate, above the supreme court and the American constitution.

Read more at the Washington Monthly.

"In most issues of the Washington Monthly, we favor articles that we hope will launch a debate. In this issue we seek to end one. The unifying message of the articles that follow is, simply, Stop. In the wake of September 11, the United States became a nation that practiced torture. Astonishingly—despite the repudiation of torture by experts and the revelations of Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib—we remain one. As we go to press, President George W. Bush stands poised to veto a measure that would end all use of torture by the United States. His move, we suspect, will provoke only limited outcry. What once was shocking is now ordinary."

thanks!
the brewery appreciates your valiant efforts, Duffman.

*promote

(I figure I owe you two * promotes as you tried valiantly to save this controversial video of mine twice. (May it rest in peace.) The second promote will come when you least expect it, but probably when you post a video that includes dick jokes. I like sophisticated humor.)

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I admire your valiant efforts - but lets limit self-link bannage to the last 6-12 months. There were things happening b4 that, that could make the posts valid. eg. Sift Off. Thanx!

Alrighty, well, Qruel asked me to move this post so I'm doing so. I was responding to comments made here: http://www.videosift.com/member/deedub81/published
As you can see, I just got an account this morning so I apologize if I'm not following protocol. I was pretty angry when I wrote this but I don't have the energy to re-write. What I'm really trying to say is that Mormonism isn't some kind of half-cocked crap and we deserve some tolerance. We don't need Christians to accept us as Christians, but we would appreciate a little bit of tolerance from Christians. People think they've got us all figured out and it has started to drive me up the wall. Here is my original post:

I know you're all making a valiant effort to bring the subject back to the speech and I hate to undermine that, but I couldn't let this go. Qruel, you said: "Surely Romney knows that Mormonism, in particular, was historically hostile to liberty for blacks as well as women. The founders of his church believed that God had cursed the world's dark-skinned people. They rejected abolitionism and later the civil rights movement."

Will you please tell me where you got this information? Particularly about the rejection of abolitionism and civil rights by Mormons. Many Mormons were part of the abolitionist movement, including some of my Mormon ancestors. My parents and grandparents were alive during the Civil Rights movement and I assure you that they and all of their Mormon friends supported the movement. Furthermore, the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints do not take a stance on political topics, politicians, or policy. Right down to the topic of abortion, the church does not take an official stance. I don't see how you can say, therefore, that the church opposed the civil rights movement or the abolitionist movement.

I would also like to know why you think that Mormons were historically hostile to women's rights. I admit that I am not a theologist or an LDS historian and am honestly curious as to where you got that information. I grew up in California among a hotbed of feminists. I consider myself a feminist. By saying this I mean that I do not believe that men and women are the same, but that the separate roles of men and women are equal in value, difficulty, and worth; that neither sex is inferior to the other, and that men and women should be equal partners in everything. Having said this, I would like to point out that LDS women do not need your sympathy. We are among the most active, influential, educated, and liberated women in society. The leaders of the church go out of their way to encourage LDS women to seek higher learning among other things. I love being a woman in my church. It rocks. You should try it.

I have an inquiring mind. I have done a great deal of research (not among anti-Mormon literature, but among credible sources) and I am insulted by anyone who calls me a sheep. I assure you that after a lifetime of learning about religious doctrine and studying both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, I have not taken these things for granted. I used to believe that inquiring was dangerous and that I would find something that contradicted the truths I believed so completely that I would not be able to hold on to them. I see no reason to call the doctrines of my church "ridiculous", "nonsense", "far-fetched", or its members "off their rockers". We aren't idiots. Seriously. We're not. I go to school, I take philosophy classes, I talk, I walk, I have conversations, I think, I live on the Earth, I don't walk around with a blindfold over my eyes. I have questioned the existence of God in a logical way and in a spiritual way. I have written philosophical, LOGICALLY structured arguments and essays on the topics of God's existence and my own faith. I have listened to differing opinions. I am not saying that any of these things prove that my religion is true. I am saying that my religion may seem like it doesn't have a leg to stand on to someone who knows little about it, but I know that there is at least some kind of rational thought put into the whole deal and that maybe, just maybe, you aren't as freaking wise as you think you are. I'm probably not, either, but I'm NOT a simpleton believing in some half-cocked cult theory. Many people wiser and more educated in the history of this church than you have found that that our faith is good and that it is founded in more than the mindless, brainwashed faith of its members. Our history may not be unspotted or untainted (is any religion's history?), but we have as much merit as any church out there and DO NOT deserve to be called ridiculous by anyone as ignorant about our beliefs as you people.

"You've already stated to me personaly that you "don't base your faith on logic" whatever that means. (to me it says you believe what you are told to believe) If someone from your religion tells you "you are christian" then you'll believe them and all the other nonsense they fill your head with."

Who cares if Mormons are Christian? Honestly! I don't care what the Christian community thinks of me! In fact, I don't want to be lumped in with the whole lot of them. They're great people, but, frankly, I think that their interpretation of the Bible is absolutely insane. So, there ya go. This stuff goes both ways. Just because our brand of Christianity isn't as popular or doesn't follow the mainstream doesn't mean that it is some kind of contrived nonsense! We are really, truly, honestly TRYING TO DO WHAT WE BELIEVE IS RIGHT, and we believe that the organization and doctrines of our religion are identical in every way that matters to the primitive church of Jesus Christ as he established it when he lived on the Earth. Maybe WE'RE the Christians and everyone else isn't. Ooh, that's gonna make somebody mad.

Christ and the Bible testify of revelation and of prophets. Our religion did not appear out of thin air from the mind of an uneducated, 14-year-old farmboy. We believe that Joseph Smith, a prophet, restored the church as it was before it was corrupted by people who used religion for personal gain, who appeal to their congregations by interpreting the Bible to mean that salvation is easier than pie and that God doesn't require anything of us, and so getting members to fill the church and their own pockets. Why is it so hard for Christians to believe that Christ's church may have been corrupted over two thousand years and that prophets are necessary to regulate and control the doctrine so that it isn't corrupted? Why do they think that ancient Christians so close to Christ's ministry needed to be continually taught the doctrine by prophets in epistles, but that now prophets aren't neccesary? Why would God abandon us? There are so many things about other churches that don't make sense to me. There are things about my religion that don't make sense to you, adn that's fine! All I ask is a little respect and a little tolerance. I ask that you find out what you're talking about before you start spewing accusations and insults.

Romney's speech was in no way perfect. I was annoyed by the comment about freedom and religion as many of your were. I was also bothered by the generalizations about what Americans believe. He said something about Americans believing that we are all children of God, and my immediate thought was, "Aren't atheists and agnostics American, too?"

The plain truth is that it is wrong for Americans to allow Romney's religion to sway their vote either for him or against him. His speech was a political move, no doubt about it. He was catering to the religious, particularly the Christian, community. But I don't believe that he was trying to say, "Hey, look, I'm Christian just like you!" I think he was trying to say that his religion would not and should not define his presidency. He wanted to create a feeling of solidarity with Christians, sure. I think that Christians need to stop hating Mormons so much, and Mormons need to stop asking to be accepted as Christians. But the world needs to know that Mormons are good people. You may think we're crazy or that we're a cult, but we deserve as much respect and good will as the members of any other religion. We are striving to be good human beings just like Christians, just like Atheists, and just like Jews. Lay off. Pretty please.

I know you're all making a valiant effort to bring the subject back to the speech and I hate to undermine that, but I couldn't let this go. Qruel, you said: "Surely Romney knows that Mormonism, in particular, was historically hostile to liberty for blacks as well as women. The founders of his church believed that God had cursed the world's dark-skinned people. They rejected abolitionism and later the civil rights movement."

Will you please tell me where you got this information? Particularly about the rejection of abolitionism and civil rights by Mormons. Many Mormons were part of the abolitionist movement, including some of my Mormon ancestors. My parents and grandparents were alive during the Civil Rights movement and I assure you that they and all of their Mormon friends supported the movement. Furthermore, the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints do not take a stance on political topics, politicians, or policy. Right down to the topic of abortion, the church does not take an official stance. I don't see how you can say, therefore, that the church opposed the civil rights movement or the abolitionist movement.

I would also like to know why you think that Mormons were historically hostile to women's rights. I admit that I am not a theologist or an LDS historian and am honestly curious as to where you got that information. I grew up in California among a hotbed of feminists. I consider myself a feminist. By saying this I mean that I do not believe that men and women are the same, but that the separate roles of men and women are equal in value, difficulty, and worth; that neither sex is inferior to the other, and that men and women should be equal partners in everything. Having said this, I would like to point out that LDS women do not need your sympathy. We are among the most active, influential, educated, and liberated women in society. The leaders of the church go out of their way to encourage LDS women to seek higher learning among other things. I love being a woman in my church. It rocks. You should try it.

I have an inquiring mind. I have done a great deal of research (not among anti-Mormon literature, but among credible sources) and I am insulted by anyone who calls me a sheep. I assure you that after a lifetime of learning about religious doctrine and studying both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, I have not taken these things for granted. I used to believe that inquiring was dangerous and that I would find something that contradicted the truths I believed so completely that I would not be able to hold on to them. I see no reason to call the doctrines of my church "ridiculous", "nonsense", "far-fetched", or its members "off their rockers". We aren't idiots. Seriously. We're not. I go to school, I take philosophy classes, I talk, I walk, I have conversations, I think, I live on the Earth, I don't walk around with a blindfold over my eyes. I have questioned the existence of God in a logical way and in a spiritual way. I have written philosophical, LOGICALLY structured arguments and essays on the topics of God's existence and my own faith. I have listened to differing opinions. I am not saying that any of these things prove that my religion is true. I am saying that my religion may seem like it doesn't have a leg to stand on to someone who knows little about it, but I know that there is at least some kind of rational thought put into the whole deal and that maybe, just maybe, you aren't as freaking wise as you think you are. I'm probably not, either, but I'm NOT a simpleton believing in some half-cocked cult theory. Many people wiser and more educated in the history of this church than you have found that that our faith is good and that it is founded in more than the mindless, brainwashed faith of its members. Our history may not be unspotted or untainted (is any religion's history?), but we have as much merit as any church out there and DO NOT deserve to be called ridiculous by anyone as ignorant about our beliefs as you people.

"You've already stated to me personaly that you "don't base your faith on logic" whatever that means. (to me it says you believe what you are told to believe) If someone from your religion tells you "you are christian" then you'll believe them and all the other nonsense they fill your head with."

Who cares if Mormons are Christian? Honestly! I don't care what the Christian community thinks of me! In fact, I don't want to be lumped in with the whole lot of them. They're great people, but, frankly, I think that their interpretation of the Bible is absolutely insane. So, there ya go. This stuff goes both ways. Just because our brand of Christianity isn't as popular or doesn't follow the mainstream doesn't mean that it is some kind of contrived nonsense! We are really, truly, honestly TRYING TO DO WHAT WE BELIEVE IS RIGHT, and we believe that the organization and doctrines of our religion are identical in every way that matters to the primitive church of Jesus Christ as he established it when he lived on the Earth. Maybe WE'RE the Christians and everyone else isn't. Ooh, that's gonna make somebody mad.

Christ and the Bible testify of revelation and of prophets. Our religion did not appear out of thin air from the mind of an uneducated, 14-year-old farmboy. We believe that Joseph Smith, a prophet, restored the church as it was before it was corrupted by people who used religion for personal gain, who appeal to their congregations by interpreting the Bible to mean that salvation is easier than pie and that God doesn't require anything of us, and so getting members to fill the church and their own pockets. Why is it so hard for Christians to believe that Christ's church may have been corrupted over two thousand years and that prophets are necessary to regulate and control the doctrine so that it isn't corrupted? Why do they think that ancient Christians so close to Christ's ministry needed to be continually taught the doctrine by prophets in epistles, but that now prophets aren't neccesary? Why would God abandon us? There are so many things about other churches that don't make sense to me. There are things about my religion that don't make sense to you, adn that's fine! All I ask is a little respect and a little tolerance. I ask that you find out what you're talking about before you start spewing accusations and insults.

Romney's speech was in no way perfect. I was annoyed by the comment about freedom and religion as many of your were. I was also bothered by the generalizations about what Americans believe. He said something about Americans believing that we are all children of God, and my immediate thought was, "Aren't atheists and agnostics American, too?"

The plain truth is that it is wrong for Americans to allow Romney's religion to sway their vote either for him or against him. His speech was a political move, no doubt about it. He was catering to the religious, particularly the Christian, community. But I don't believe that he was trying to say, "Hey, look, I'm Christian just like you!" I think he was trying to say that his religion would not and should not define his presidency. He wanted to create a feeling of solidarity with Christians, sure. I think that Christians need to stop hating Mormons so much, and Mormons need to stop asking to be accepted as Christians. But the world needs to know that Mormons are good people. You may think we're crazy or that we're a cult, but we deserve as much respect and good will as the members of any other religion. We are striving to be good human beings just like Christians, just like Atheists, and just like Jews. Lay off. Pretty please.

I agree Twiddles, on both counts, but unfortunately, it is difficult to get everyone to follow some kind of format when posting (anyone else remember JoeDirt's valiant attempt to get a title format going in his election08 channel?)... getting them to seek out whos, whats, wheres, and whys might be too much to as for, however, I would be all for encouraging this.

A War on Terror Channel might also be something to consider... oftentimes I've found myself tempted to give up the HorrorShow in favor of starting something like this up... maybe its time I consider passing on the Vampira mantel to someone else.

"The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose.... The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of time.
But it was a beginning."

Robert Jordan fought a valiant fight against cancer. It is a sad day, Robert Jordan will be missed. RIP

For more info visit Dragonmount.