saw this on Tosh.0 last night... the comments were hilarious

@Ryjkyj,

I don't get what or who you're objecting to here. Look, I'm with you that we shouldn't be policing thoughts, but I don't see anyone advocating that. Nobody has suggested that Tosh be legally banned from making rape jokes. What happened is that the woman heckled (which I agree she shouldn't have done), Tosh responded in a way that many people consider extremely assholish and some people consider threatening (and words can be threatening without being direct threats). The woman's friend blogged about it, not with the intention of getting Congress to pass a bill against joking about rape, but with the intention of publicizing the fact that Tosh is a douchecanoe. Surely having that information out there is a good thing. This way, people who don't want to support this kind of thing know that they should avoid Tosh shows. Nobody is preventing people who don't mind the joke from attending Tosh shows in the future. In addition, a number of people think Tosh owes the woman a sincere apology, but again no one is saying that he should be forced to apologize. People are saying that if he were a decent human being he would apologize.

What exactly in this chain of events do you find so objectionable (besides the initial heckling)? Where is the thought policing here? I feel like I'm in Bizarro world sometime when I'm discussing these things. I'll say something like "That joke was racist and not cool at all" and people will respond with "Don't you respect free speech? Do you want there to be a thought police? What about the First Amendment?" That sort of response just seems like a complete non sequitur.

I'm just going to give my opinion here, mostly because George Carlin is my hero, and because I'm interested in the topic:

Regarding things being offensive:
There isn't any topic known anywhere to human kind that won't offend someone. Whether it's daisies or pancakes or pinwheels someone, somewhere, can be offended by it. I guarantee it. This is just my opinion, but I don't think that anyone has the right to 'not be offended.'

Regarding comedians:
People mostly don't seem to realize the importance of humor in all of our lives. Comedians play a very important role in the collective human community that cannot be replaced. They help us deal with parts of ourselves that would otherwise be unacceptable for us to even sometimes think about. Just like the court jester who might otherwise get himself beheaded if he were a normal person suggesting the king was fat. Almost all humor, successful or not, makes people feel uncomfortable. The very best humor makes people really uncomfortable. Laughter itself is a response to these same situations and events that we just have a little-bit of a hard time dealing with. I think this is why comedians, while onstage, are given a free pass. Even their televised specials get edited for content, but the only time a comedian gets kicked off stage in a club is when no one is laughing. What they're saying implies a lot more about the people laughing than it does about the comedian. Follow me?

And it's important to remember that most comedians are artists who are immersed in their material. Most have specific routines that are worked out over and over again, tweeking the tone and meter until they become almost meaningless to the comedians themselves. This is why you rarely see experienced comedians laughing at their own jokes, they've just heard them too many times. And even when they are performing improvisationally, like Tosh was during the event in question, they aren't saying things that they think are funny, specifically, they are saying things that they think the audience will find funny. It may seem like a small distinction, but it can make a big difference in understanding why some jokes are made. Some comedians have a style based on saying shocking, offensive things, and it's they're job. They are paid to make an audience laugh, and whether you like him or not, Tosh gets paid.

And the particular incident and joke:
This whole thing was brought up by a woman who was at a show and heard something she didn't like. She retorted back from the audience that rape isn't funny. To which Tosh retorted back that it would be funny if the woman was "raped by like five guys." Now, according to the woman, that made her actually fear for her safety and she got up and left. I'm not going to debate her sanity, if she really felt threatened, then that's terrible and I feel bad for her. But there are a few things that need to be pointed out here:

1: Tosh didn't threaten anyone. Had he said: "you five guys over there should rape this woman," it would not only be offensive to many people, but it also could have been perceived as a legitimate threat that, maybe, could have been pursued legally.

2: Hecklers are always dealt with harshly. And so should they be. Complain all you want about a person outside of a show but when you go to a comedy club, you have agreed that it's that person's time to talk. And so has everyone else who paid money to listen to them, not you. They're up there making a living, succeeding or failing at the expense of their own ass, not yours. It should be noted here that the woman said she left the room to the laughter of the entire audience.

3: You do not have the right to not be offended, especially if you are at a fucking comedy club. There was a pretty famous incident with Joan Rivers when she was joking about deaf people on stage, and a man in the audience stood up and started yelling at her because his daughter was deaf and he didn't find her jokes funny. Well, Joan Rivers responded that her own mother was deaf, and that she'd had to deal with that on her own terms. Comedy was something that helped her deal with that (because comedy is a useful tool) and if he didn't like it, he could go fuck himself. And that's the thing, you never know people's story. The girl at Tosh's show couldn't know Tosh's experience with rape, just like he couldn't know hers. And if you don't think people who've experienced a major tragedy can joke about the horrible events in their lives, I invite you to go watch some Bob Saget material. Humor is subjective. Saying you don't think something should be allowed because it's not funny, is exactly the same as saying something shouldn't be allowed because you don't think it's funny. Whatever it is, you can bet that someone out there finds it funny, even if it's nonsense.

Rape jokes are hardly ever funny. Even Carlin's few never got much of a laugh. But jokes are thoughts, and I'd really rather people stop trying to police thoughts. If someone finds a joke threatening, then deal with the threat, not the joke. And if someone finds a joke offensive, well...

About the Tosh incident in particular. I normally hate the defence, "You weren't there so you don't know the whole story," because it's usually used by apologists in contexts when there's plenty enough context available to make a reasonable judgement. In the case of a comedian during a show, however, it's not just applicable, it's crucial. Until we know exactly how he delivered those lines, how the audience was reacting, what the vibe was, and so on, there's nothing we can say. When I picture Tosh in my mind saying those things, I see him egging her on to make a fool out of herself so the audience will turn on her, which is what a good comedian does to hecklers. I may be wrong, but either way, we really don't know enough to condemn or defend it.

Comedian Bill Burr made a great analogy the other day. Oddly enough he was not referring to the Daniel Tosh incident as this was a few days before that incident took place.

What he said was: "Watching an old woman falling down the stairs would be a HORRIBLE thing to see. Yet if you watched it happen in a Will Ferrell movie (or something) it would be hilarious"



His point being, it is possible (some say necessary) to laugh at the dark side of life and humanity.



Gilbert Gottfried also chimed in on this same topic in his editorial about the Daniel Tosh incident:



"have always felt comedy and tragedy are roommates. If you look up comedy and tragedy, you will find a very old picture of two masks. One mask is tragedy. It looks like it's crying. The other mask is comedy. It looks like it's laughing."

>> ^Sotto_Voce:

Why is this? Surely the intent matters. Take Ann Coulter, for instance. She often couches the ridiculous stuff she says in humor. Now the humor isn't usually very good, but suppose it was. Would that somehow magically make the content of what she is saying OK?

You're missing the point. Of course the intent matters. The intent goes to whether it's funny. Nothing Ann Coulter says can be funny because she's a fucking idiot. On the other hand, Stephen Colbert could repeat an exact speech of hers verbatim and be hilarious.

>> ^Sotto_Voce:

If she's using humor to promulgate an ignorant and bigoted worldview, we can still call her out on the ignorance and bigotry.

Yep and that's exactly what we do. I want to break this down a bit.

>> ^Sotto_Voce:

If she's using humor....

I would replace "using humor" with "attempting to use humour".

>> ^Sotto_Voce:

... to promulgate an ignorant and bigoted worldview...

and that's the point. Coulter isn't funny because she actually believes the vile crap she's espousing. If someone makes a joke about rape and actually believes that rape is in anyway acceptable.... that's not funny. If someone is using a joke about a horrific situation to make you think or take you to such an uncomfortable place that your only escape is to laugh at it, that's comedy genius.


>> ^Sotto_Voce:

Patrice O'Neal is a more pertinent example, and I talked about this in the other thread. He was a genuinely funny guy, and in his act (and elsewhere) he said a lot of horrible things about women. The thing is, he actually meant a lot of that stuff. Even his close friends admit that he was an actual misogynist. Does the fact that he was also funny somehow make his misogyny inoffensive?

I don't really want to comment on this because I'm not really familiar with O'Neals work or life. But let's assume for the sake of argument that what you say is true. It's possible to be really funny and still say unfunny things. If he was genuinely promoting misogyny is some of his material, did you still find it funny?

Personally, if something feels that wrong to me, I find it hard to see humour in it.

>> ^Sotto_Voce:

Also, I think there are two separate points to consider here that some people (not necessarily you) are getting mixed up: (1) Are rape jokes funny?, (2) Are rape jokes offensive? The answer to both questions is "Some of them are." And the thing is, sometimes the exact same joke can be both funny and offensive. These properties can coexist.

I don't really believe so. A funny joke can be shocking, uncomfortable or even borderline offensive, but if you're actually laughing at something, the joke itself was not sufficiently offensive to become unfunny.

>> ^Sotto_Voce:

Even if Tosh's joke had been hilarious (which it obviously wasn't) it still would have been really dickish, and I still would have thought that he ought to make a genuine apology to the woman if he is a decent human being.


To me, it's about your own moral compass. Toshs joke wasn't funny precisely because there was only dickishness to a relatively innocent victim (I say relatively because she went to his show, it's not like he's an unknown).

For the record I think Tosh's response was dickish and given her agitation, he might have seen an opportunity to take the high road. But he never does take it. That's his act. I don't think the onus is on any comedian to do so.

>> ^ChaosEngine:

My take on the subject is simple: is it funny?
That's the end of it where comedy is concerned. Regardless of what was said, if the content, delivery and context all add up to humour, then by definition it's not offensive to me.


Why is this? Surely the intent matters. Take Ann Coulter, for instance. She often couches the ridiculous stuff she says in humor. Now the humor isn't usually very good, but suppose it was. Would that somehow magically make the content of what she is saying OK? I don't think so. If she's using humor to promulgate an ignorant and bigoted worldview, we can still call her out on the ignorance and bigotry.

Patrice O'Neal is a more pertinent example, and I talked about this in the other thread. He was a genuinely funny guy, and in his act (and elsewhere) he said a lot of horrible things about women. The thing is, he actually meant a lot of that stuff. Even his close friends admit that he was an actual misogynist. Does the fact that he was also funny somehow make his misogyny inoffensive?

Also, I think there are two separate points to consider here that some people (not necessarily you) are getting mixed up: (1) Are rape jokes funny?, (2) Are rape jokes offensive? The answer to both questions is "Some of them are." And the thing is, sometimes the exact same joke can be both funny and offensive. These properties can coexist. An actual racist can make a funny race joke, just like an actual misogynist can make a funny joke about women. The funniness does not erase the fact that these jokes, considering the intent behind them, should be condemned. Even if Tosh's joke had been hilarious (which it obviously wasn't) it still would have been really dickish, and I still would have thought that he ought to make a genuine apology to the woman if he is a decent human being.

My take on the subject is simple: is it funny?

That's the end of it where comedy is concerned. Regardless of what was said, if the content, delivery and context all add up to humour, then by definition it's not offensive to me.

As I've made clear, I think Tosh is to comedy what an accounting manual is to literature. I didn't find Toshs joke funny, but at the same time, I don't believe there was malice in it. I think it was just a bad joke.

I'm also uncertain as to what "rape culture" is. On the one hand, the kind of vitriol that gets spewed on XBox Live disgusts me, and is one of the reasons I can't be bothered with consoles. On the other hand, I though the controversy over Penny Arcades Sixth Slave comic was retarded.

I think a better outcome would've been for Tosh to rip on the guy that suggested rape as a joke subject, instead of the woman who objected (even if she misunderstood his sarcasm and didn't "get it".)

@vaire2ube, I'm glad you brought up Patrice O'Neal, because he is a perfect example of the disingenuousness of the "It's just comedy, folks" defense. There is plenty of evidence that O'Neal was a bona fide misogynist, with genuinely toxic views about women. But because he usually expressed those views humorously, any criticism was met with something like "God, can't you take a joke, you humorless feminazi?"

I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. Hateful views don't get a pass just because they're followed by a punchline. Good (and even some not-so-good) comedians don't just tell jokes, they convey ideas, and those ideas should be subject to scrutiny just as they would be if they came from Rachel Maddow or Charles Krauthammer. To treat comedy otherwise, to treat it as if it is just light entertainment that shouldn't be taken seriously, is to trivialize it. And the trivialization of comedy is precisely what the greats -- Bruce, Pryor, Carlin -- fought against. To anyone who loves the artform of comedy, the phrase "just a joke" should be anathema.

Patrice O'Neal was a very funny man, but he was also a bigot. His funniness does not excuse his bigotry in the slightest. And Tosh doesn't even have that figleaf. His act is shot through with causal misogyny and disregard for the valid concerns of rape victims. Look, that woman shouldn't have heckled him in the middle of the act. But his response was hugely dickish. Especially given the fact that she had just voiced strong sentiments against rape jokes, which in the mind of most considerate human beings would have triggered a little alarm to the effect of "Maybe she reacts so strongly to rape jokes because she is a rape victim."

Tags for this video have been changed from 'tosh, loius ck, jon stewart, comedy, 1st amendment, the daily show' to 'tosh, louis ck, jon stewart, comedy, 1st amendment, the daily show' - edited by bareboards2

This is such a load of horseshit. The truth is that Tosh was asking the audience to suggest joke topics. Someone suggested rape and that's when he made the comment that sure, because rape jokes are always funny (if it's not obviuos, he was implying that they are not always funny). Then this dimbulb broad gets up and heckles the comedian because she can't recognize sarcasm and thinks her personal experience is more important than everyone else's. I feel no pity for her. She's a narcissistic twat. I don't hope she gets raped. But I sure hope she has to endure a life full of rape jokes.

I love Louis CK's discussion of this on The Daily Show.

http://videosift.com/video/TDS-Louis-CK-Talks-about-Tosh-Rape-Joke-Situation

You can make good jokes about the holocaust and rape. If you are intelligent, discerning, thoughtful. Not too many folks are in a world where Iran calls for Death to Israel and women are afraid to move freely through the world.

Thanks for your thoughtful analysis, hpqp. Good on you.

>> ^EMPIRE:

I hate this whole rape-is-terrible-so-let-make-no-jokes-about-it. It's really annoying, insulting, and fucking stupid.
Yes, rape is terrible. So are many other things used for comedic effect: murder, racism, etc.
No one is allowed to demand SHIT from comedy. Take it or leave it.
Making a joke about something bad does not mean you condone it, in the slightest.


indeed! thinking too that it is more about the audience taking themselves too seriously than it is about the comedian.
usually the non-thought process goes something like this: "how dare you! my friend was raped 20 yrs ago, and you bastards put a pube on my coke can when i was in junior high. and i'm special"