Yeah, the crutch of it for me is the UBI moniker.

What you describe at the end of your post, minimum income, is really just a rewording of the existing social security and welfare systems across the western world. I know they look different in each, but here in Canada what you describe is more or less our already existing system's design goal. Welfare money exists for those that straight up can not work, and an employment insurance system exists to protect those inbetween jobs, meanwhile other multiple programs are aimed at distributing financial assistance to the lower income groups.

Despite all of that already existing, UBI is still being heralded up here in trials as well as a replacement. The problem being that for the needy the UBI pitches are generally a step backwards.

Eg. $500/month is the UBI pitch, and they say it'll be great because everyone gets it no matter what so it's simple and fair and nobody is left behind. The trouble though is that the reality is the truly in need people were already benefitting more than the $500/month under the existing systems, and the cost was much less because it was targeted.

I here UBI and get very worried about folks just selling snake oil 'solutions' that in the end are just a demand to adopt their own particular flavor of wealth redistribution.

I'm gonna have to be that guy. $500 a month for a family of four is $2k, which is a very good chunk of money to drop in your lap.

That works out the same as it they were on a single income, working 40 hour weeks at $10/hr, so almost equivalent to a full time job. No doubt that's gonna be a big deal and noticeable financial improvement to the recipient(s).

As always with UBI schemes, the devil is in how you pay for it. If it's truly universal, paying $500/month to ~330 million Americans would cost $1.98 Trillion dollars, meanwhile the current entire US gov budget for 2022 is estimated at $1.2 Trillion.

So, to implement $500/month universally in America would require not only increasing overall tax revenues by almost 50% it would also require the cancellation of 100% of every single other expenditure. That not includes military spending going to zero, but even cancelling the jobs of everyone that collects taxes and would presumably have been responsible for distributing the $500 checks.

If the 'fix' is to just tax the pants off anyone earning more than the $500/month, or limiting who we give it to, then it ceases to be a UBI scheme, and is instead just a mundane modification of the existing social security scheme by shuffling more money back and forth between different folks.

No answer Bob? Typical. It’s ok….we knew you didn’t have any.

You can’t say what’s a half truth or what’s spin, you just know it is because if this were true (hint, it is) it means you blindly follow someone who clearly tried to subvert democracy to turn America into a despotic monarchy and was stupid enough to use emails and texts to coordinate his coup, leaving a massive pile of evidence of his crimes. After all, he thought his violent mob would be successful at ending democracy in America and he would just erase all traces of his crimes along with anyone investigating him once he was king for life.


Oh no! Mr My Crackpipe’s cyber symposium with the best cyber guys around, after getting hacked and starting way late, has fallen apart with absolutely no evidence of mush brain’s claims, just his little factless movie, but did include Lindel running off stage crying when he learned that the $1.5 billion lawsuit against him and the other election fraud fraudsters will proceed (an order that came with a scathing rebuke from the judge).
Edit: Er Mer Gerd!…and he revoked his $5 million prize for anyone who could prove him wrong before it started, likely because his cyber security expert Josh Merritt had already said his “evidence “ was utter nonsense and proved nothing in interviews, and others he hired said he didn’t even have these “data packets” he claimed to have, only his video representation of what such packets MIGHT look like as raw data…which would be impossible to decrypt and wouldn’t have the evidence Lindel claimed if you could, even if a Chinese hack had occurred. ROTFLMFAHS!!!

More good news, cyberninjas has reportedly stolen the ballots and data they were reviewing (it was never an audit) and (illegally?) taken them out of state to Montana almost two weeks after missing their deadline to report to the AZ congress on July 28. Good thing they didn’t get their hands on all that other personal information they requested because what they have is not secured and ripe for identity theft already, and they wanted basically all the personal data the county had on every resident, including addresses, employment, family members (mother’s maiden name), social security numbers, medical records, bank accounts, assets, criminal history, …..everything the state had.

Even you can’t spin the refusal to provide their conclusions (now what, almost 5 months into their 3 week review) and fleeing the state with state property as some indication they found something, and you were so gullible that you bought their blatant lie about “suddenly appearing unregistered mail in votes that had no record of being sent out” that turned out to be early in person voting numbers, but they were too incompetent or dishonest to say so and instead pretended they found fraud….and continue to pretend they found fraud after being debunked, and are using that obvious bold faced lie in their efforts of trying to go door to door in large groups of Trumptards to force people to tell them who they voted for in a clear, blatant case of text book illegal voter intimidation.

D’oh!

Repeated non partisan recounts, above board by republican chosen organizations with bipartisan witnesses and uninterrupted video despite the lies OAN told you, with no Italian satellites wirelessly changing Trump votes (you delusional morons forgot there is a paper record of all votes that's been verified as matching the electronic counts). It's been proven twice over.
The fake audit dragging on now is none of those things, it's purely partisan, there aren't bipartisan witnesses, it's not all recorded, it has no rules, no plan, and no professionals involved, just Trumpsters trying to find any nonsense they can use to fool morons into believing they found fraud, Trump won, you really aren't all loser crybabies butt hurt over losing and throwing tantrums....but the thing is, you are.

Prove it was above board? How about give one scintilla of proof it wasn't, not crack heads spouting bullshit, not babies whining that they won, proof. So far every single bit of proof has shown every single case of demonstrable fraud was perpetrated by Trump voters for Trump. From double voters to voter suppression to hundreds of thousands of "lost" mail in ballots Dejoy refused court orders to even look for, Texas, all cases are Trump frauds....but you don't care a whit about that massive, multi spiked wheel of fraud because it ALL benefited Trump.

Prove it was above board? Ask any Republican in office if THEIR election was through fraud. Every single one will tell you no. If the ballots that elected them are not fraudulent, neither was the presidential election on the same ballots. Try it, see what happens.

Prove it was above board? No amount of incontrovertible proof would ever satisfy you, because you are incapable of examining it and understanding so you defer to whatever rambling mumbling nonsense Trump and Q feed you, never grasping that they lie to you at every turn but instead insisting it's reality that has it all wrong, Trump won two elections, climate change both isn't real and is a good thing, trickle down works, insane debt is both the most important thing we should focus on and a nothing burger, poorly built fences that fall in the wind are huge immovable concrete walls....I could go on all day.

We had multiple bipartisan professional forensic audits, that's where they found all that Republican fraud. You want a partial audit by fully partisan political hacks that are part of the stop the steal cult, not looking for fraud (bamboo ballots, really?!), they're looking to continue the circus long enough that you don't forget the big lie before the next election, and hoping to destroy the capabilities of any county that went to Biden to hold the next election....Maricopa needs to rebuy tens of millions in election equipment because any machine you morons touched has been permanently decertified and must be discarded (should be destroyed so republican counties don't buy them knowing they've been tampered with). Now you want to repeat that in all 50 states, only in counties that went for Biden. How about this, I think many would agree to that, but only if the auditors pay to replace all election equipment in counties they audit before they get approval, and do not get personally identifying information under any circumstances (in AZ they want names, addresses, criminal records, and social security numbers....all unsecured and gone through by unqualified unsupervised unverified certifiable morons who are guaranteed to turn around and sell it to hackers.) That means $10-50 million per audit...up front in cash.

The "audit" being done by cyberninjas isn't forensic. They have zero experience. It's like a complicated death happened and the main suspect is handed the body to make their own determination of how they weren't murdered, they fell on all 14 knives while accidentally shooting themselves in the face 6 times....case closed, the suspect now inherits the victims estate and wife. So retarded, useless, and in no way a real investigation. It's a bullshit show for morons.

Yes, republicans are blocking that nonsense too, because it's not an audit, it's an incredibly expensive exercise in destroying trust in elections....a Putin plan that undeniably hurts America but has zero chance of actually producing evidence, proof, or rational theories of fraud. There's absolutely no way it could overturn the election even if it did find massive election outcome changing fraud (hasn't found non-republican fraud yet, btw, been 7 months of searching under every rock so far)...That's not how the law works. Sadly, you get legal advice from a crackhead and Giuliani, both clinically insane.

I wonder. What do you morons think? Do you believe if they can find ANY fraud from Democrats the position is just handed to Republicans? 1) There's already been massive Republican frauds found but no Republican handed over their seats 2) there's no mechanism for decertifying a certified election and 3) if there were, it would mean a special election, not that Trump just gets installed. Trump's favorability is 1/2 Biden's, same goes for many Republican senators and representatives. If there was a new election today, it would be a shutout against Republicans. Not a blue wave, not a blue tsunami, but a biblical blue flood, and your team can't build boats or swim. Is that what you want?

Might want to rethink this anti American, undemocratic plot to steal elections after the fact, it's destroyed your party's future, reputation, and further damaged you're believability and trustworthiness that were already on life support.

Cry us more snowflake tears, Bobby....I'm making lemonade and need the sweet syrup of sadness to keep flowing.

You should have heard by now, the fake bamboo audit has now completely destroyed Maricopa county's election system because, since the pro Trump "cyber ninjas" (who's name itself indicates they intended to surreptitiously set traps and viruses in the machines and who had no supervision) tampered with vote machines, tabulators, and databases (and have asked for every piece of government held data in the county from addresses and social security numbers to expunged criminal records), so now every single machine in the county they touched must be discarded by court order.

It's impossible to know how many tens to hundreds of millions they wasted, finding nothing, and now they intend to travel the country doing it in every state. They seem intent on destroying our election apparatus, just like Trump's presidency was intent on destroying our government. It wasn't about finding problems and fixing them, it was about destroying the system and wasting billions of tax dollars, then lowering taxes to destroy America with massive debt over stupidity.

Because they played so fast and loose, with no chain of custody, no supervision, and no honesty, their "audit" is completely invalid on it's face. They destroyed the data, destroyed the machines (400 $5000 tabulators and around 10-20 vote machines per tabulator at another $5000+ each at a bare minimum in this one county)....so in the $20- >$40 million range for fraud #1, and they plan on at least 50 more. Good job handing Dominion tens of millions to replace them.....now pay up.

Every single Republican should have to pay for every cent they wasted, with non republicans exempt from the new election fraud fraud recovery tax. Children of Republicans too. I'm writing my congressman.

I do not share your opinion. Provided Bob isn't in-fact a Russian troll, he's still an American.

Pop quiz, which is the best political party?
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Trick question, the best party in America is America.

“We’re so glad to see so many of you lovely people here tonight. And we would especially like to welcome all the representatives of Illinois’s law enforcement community that have chosen to join us here in the Palace Hotel Ballroom at this time. We certainly hope you all enjoy the show. And remember, people, that no matter who you are and what you do to live, thrive and survive, there’re still some things that makes us all the same. You. Me. Them. Everybody. Everybody.”






That said,

They'll get their own misery when they feel the policy they helped create begin to affect them. Trust me, it doesn't need help. My dad is scrambling trying to save for his retirement at 65 and scoffs at the idea of the stimulus checks he got, refuses to cash the "biden bucks"

Let me tell you. Jeff Bezos? Mark Zuckerburg? They don't give a shit about moral quandaries when offered free money, they take it, happily.
If you're pulling down millions every year and cook the books a bit, that's "smart." Walk in to a social security office with a baby on your arm a day early, that's "criminal," (almost like stealing).

Do that enough + a bunch of VERY-MUCH-NOT billionaires voting for it and u have the republican party.


-----------------

I also don't care for the malformed logic they practice. Another republican acquaintance of mine called me a "segregationist" because I said trans-athletes should be able to play on the team of their self identified sex.

Whether you agree with me on that or not, me saying that they SHOULD play on an integrated team does NOT make me a segregationist, unless you completely redefine the word.

------------------




Finally, I do agree there is some room for some anger. I don't like it when the GOP or their sycophants go on a "Let's take rights away from someone today, AS A TEAM!"

When the message is the OPPOSITE of "There are still some things that make us all the same," it's infuriating. Because if it can happen to them, it can happen to you.

Take what's happening with their complaints of "cancel culture"
Coca Cola, Disney, etc etc private companies and bakeries

The new and improved supreme court helped establish that private businesses can discriminate against you based on a genuine philosophical or religious belief. Bakery vs the gay couple "TAKE THAT, GAYS!!!"

They didn't realize that that meant ALL businesses could now do that. But again, if it happens to them, it can happen to you.

Bob here is like one of the fans throwing garbage on the field when Jackie Robinson gets up to bat. "WHY DON'T YOU JUST GET YOUR OWN NEGRO -ERR TRANS LEAGUE?"


He truly doesn't know he's being manipulated.



p.s. https://www.npr.org/2018/06/04/605003519/supreme-court-decides-in-favor-of-baker-over-same-sex-couple-in-cake-shop-case

Now, it's easy to point out "LOOK!!! no no no it's not!!! see! it says right here, they CANT just do it if you're not this specific baker." That's not stopping this guy from 6 days ago

https://w ww.whas11.co (link too long) m/article/news/investigations/focus/radcliff-kentucky-tax-preparer-refusing-business-to-lgbtq-couples/417-c2575ded-feed-45d8-b6f7-49016ec9eba3

made a tiny^ https://tinyurl.com/myd5ubrc

I picked that from a bunch of sources that were reporting on it because (scroll down on the page) it contains the full legal documents submitted to the court.

See page 32

My favorite bits

"The plaintiffs themselves characterize the statements at issue as 'wild accusations' and 'outlandish claims'. They are repeatedly labeled 'inherently improbable' and even 'impossible.'"

“Such characterizations of the allegedly defamatory statements further support defendants’ position that reasonable people would not accept such statements as fact"

“Reasonable people understand that the ‘language of the political arena, like the language used in labor disputes … is often vituperative, abusive and inexact...political statements are inherently prone to exaggeration and hyperbole."


Yep, only an unreasonable person, someone making no sense, would believe that election fraud alleged by Sidney Powell occurred.

Tell me again about the Kraken, Bob. Any day now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------


Side note, it's impressive that the best criticism that the right can come up with is "heur de hurr hurr look he fall up stairs" and other made up nonsense. I, for one, am unhappy about the boarder.

I don't think it's his fault that kids are showing up en masse. But I wish they embraced them, said "It's dangerous in your country? You fear for your life there ? Well, lets swear you in, teach you english and make you a tax payer in the U S of A. Here's a hotdog, kid." But it seems like the right only wants him to be more cruel to them? he's in the middle, still not my first pick, but on other issues, I have no complaints at the moment.

Why don't you just snap out of it already, look at the nazi's you've been listening to and see them for what they are. Fucking liars who are talking you into voting for policy that hurts no one but yourself, all in the name of "pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps" aka "your on your own unless you're swimming in a money pit, also give us more $$$$"

My dad is nearing retirement age and is baffled by the fact that his monthly social security isn't as high as he anticipated. I told him "Go read that section of the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act and stop letting other people interpret it for you. It's what i was warning you about and what you are, at least partially responsible for, shooting yourself in the foot with. And go get your vaccination, because I know what they think about that, dumb-ass."

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Bob, whatever you do or think, go get a vaccine. Donald Trump fucked us good by letting this virus run rampant and Ive had too many people close to me die. Those lunatics telling you not to take precautions DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOU. Go get vaccinated. Stay safe.

He's giving you the (fake) reasoning he was given to excuse the dismantling of the USPS and all the collateral harm that does.

Too bad for him it's utter bullshit, something he proved himself in his post the day before which complained about too many mail in votes being disqualified when they were checked and failed to pass various regulations....checks and regulations he now claims don't exist.

Also too bad for him Trump, who told him mail in votes are all fraudulent except his, agreed to not veto funding for mail in voting if he gets a payoff in the form of another huge tax cut for himself....this one designed to defund and end social security and save his businesses tens of millions yearly.

🤦‍♂️

Sho Nuff Is.
Way better than Daughter Diddling Incest Don, who can't say a full sentence in English in the last 4+ years (like someone else I know) who's still looking for the oranges of one investigation into his illicit dealings...I get why you like him, he makes you feel smart.
https://youtu.be/MfOQBY5BrUA
https://youtu.be/UE9BXkQ-SRc
https://youtu.be/Cr4wosNO1oo
THIS is YOUR decrepit obese old man for 2020?!? Lol.

Again, comparing obese Donny who can't walk down a wheelchair ramp with svelte Biden riding bikes and jogging and you claim obese Trump is in perfect shape and Biden is on his death bed.

It's like taking Donny's 5+ decade history of blatant, illegal, prosecuted, vitriolic racism from red lining housing (denying it to non whites) to calling for the death penalty for black kids despite them being exonerated by DNA to Nazis and white supremacists being good people but protesters against police brutality are thugs and inhuman animals VS a few jokes with his black friends that mention race and calling Donny an anti racist and Biden a racist.

🤦‍♂️

The insane desperation is shining bright these days....the only light left in your darkening world of Trump.

Edit: This entire year Donny has been so bad he ruined my Tshirt,
"Cthulhu 2020 - This time vote for the greater evil"
Now there's real confusion about who the greater evil is since he, and his sycophants are holding up recovery for more massive tax cuts for Trump, tax cuts he illegally gave himself by executive order anyway so now we're left wondering why Republicans are still refusing to move forward on recovery....maybe they're still waiting for full immunity for schools and businesses they know won't follow guidelines, causing deaths and disabilities. Republicans need immunity from the consequences of their decisions, because they know those decisions will cause American deaths and permanent disabilities they don't intend to help with or accept responsibility for.

Also worth noting, yesterday in his "pandemic briefing" (where he reads the exact same written statement he's been reading since mid July, then campaigns) he said he plans on eliminating social security....well, he said he plans on eliminating the funding for social security, the payroll tax (that costs him lots of money). He has no plan to replace that funding, so there's no other option, end social security. That's Trump's ONLY plan for next year so far, but expect a thousand more cuts when the budget numbers from 2020 are in....and America will die by those thousand cuts.

Thanks for the good questions.

a) yes
b) yes
c) no
d) yes
e) n/a

If you exclude suicide, the USA doesn't have a staggering rate of gun deaths. It is high compared to some other western countries, but on a world rate it is still very low.

When looking at public health (which is the reason for reducing gun violence) you need to be pragmatic. What will actually give a good outcome for public health? In this case there are about a half a dozen things that kill and maim US citizens at much higher rates than firearms do.

E.g. you are much more likely to be killed in a car crash than murdered by someone with a firearm. Cars by accident kill more people in the USA each year than firearms do on purpose. That's some scary shit right there. Think about that for a second, cars are more dangerous than firearms and people are not even trying to kill themselves or someone else with one. So as an example, you'd be better off trying to fix this first.

Or fix the suicide rate in the US. People aren't in a happy place there.

Obesity kills more people. Doctor malpractice kills more people. Etc. But these are hard issues to tackle that will cost billions or trillions. The low hanging fruit is firearms.

Free health care and mental health care, a better social security system, and various other means would all have magnificent outcomes on everyday life in the USA. But again, they cost a lot and require a paradigm shift.

Have you ever encountered interpersonal violence against you (i.e. had someone attack you)? Or have you maybe worked in a job where you often come into contact with people who have been attacked? I find people change their mind after they realize that they were only ever one wrong turn away from some crazy bastard who wanted to hurt them badly.

Damn, I remember what it was like smoking weed out of a Coke can. I can't remember my Social Security number, but I can remember that!

Throughout the whole video it says United States, and in the description it says "Dataset source: The United States Social Security Administration (SSA)"

1) Because they didn't succeed in a vacuum, they benefit from civilization, so are obligated to support it to at least the same extent if not more because they are able while others aren't.

2) swap dumb with rich and Trump is the bazillionaire he claims to be. You can't just swap dissimilar unrelated concepts and say "see, proved it" without looking like a braying moron.

3) Yes it should without question, our best and brightest don't come from the privileged class as a higher percentage. Actually the opposite because they don't have to do their best to survive, poorer people do, and drive matters immensely. If we want to compete internationally, we must educate the uneducated and undereducated, even those who can't afford $500000 to fake a crew history or SAT score. That education needs to be better than the countries we compete with, and it is all too often simply not.
That is a conservative stance, not a liberal one.

4) equating wealth to gpa, like this moronic video does, means Trump, like everyone else, should start at 0 and not get a bonus from daddy. If that happened, he would be zero. He is not self made, he did not only get a small $14 million unrepaid interest free loan. He did squander the money, failing at venture after venture until only Russian gangsters will loan him money, loans he needs because he squandered the money....then he repeatedly lied about it immorally squandering billions from hundreds of duped investors too...THAT is evil, yes.

5) We make $30000 for two people and don't take a dime, even overpaid my taxes...not everyone has my opportunities, privileges, and abilities. You are just spouting nonsense straw man arguments. In a perfect world, we could all be self sustaining with equal opportunity to succeed, we don't live in that communist/socialist utopia.....no one ever has.
I believe we are better off when the least privileged don't have to resort to violent or immoral crime to survive. I believe we are better off as a nation when our best people have the opportunities to succeed that our worst but most privileged are afforded. I believe we are better off being protected from the irresponsibility of purely profit driven commerce that, by design, must walk the razors edge of acceptability to maximize profit and minimize obligations by any means necessary, usually leaving them for socialist programs to clean up/repair. I believe we do more good ensuring the starving among us are fed food humans would willingly eat before ensuring some unrepentant apocalyptic bankers get their multi million dollar bonuses and a free pass on their crimes, and before those making multi millions a year get to hoard more and pay even less of their share.

6) What you are spouting is bat shit insane, not even AOC advocates pure socialism....not even Russia had pure socialism. Your ilk, however, calls any government program that doesn't directly benefit them or their Trumpian masters "socialist"....education, infrastructure, all regulatory agencies, social security, even the fbi have been labeled socialist by Trumpists in the zeal to discredit the report they assumed would expose criminal conspiracy to defraud the United States (ps, it found exactly that dozens of times over), while military welfare programs for equipment we don't want and won't use, bailouts for banks and agribusiness, public funds for private ventures like golf courses and troll roads, (edit:Freudian slip?) and don't forget the unmentioned elephant, the military itself...all that socialism is fine, you think it's not even socialism. *facepalm

I'll say it again.

Asinine.

Fixing and upgrading our crumbling infrastructure could easily create enough of those jobs at least short term, by which I mean one to two decades, to employ every single able bodied American....granted, that's less than 1/3 of us, but would make unemployment rare.

Some countries have tried the free check/minimum income. It turned out to have zero effect on employment, no one decided they shouldn't work and just live on the stipend, it was under $600 a month, but they did find a huge benefit in well being and homelessness.
I don't see a huge difference from social security except age.

That said, I agree, what I've read of this new deal is overreaching pie in the sky dreaming that only made those supporting it seem unrealistic and not serious.

My new deal would trade all these benefits for sterilization after one child. Anyone with two kids pays more and is excluded from benefits, those with 3 or more go to work camps to pay society back for their irresponsibility. Lower the population by 1/2 and solving all these issues becomes exponentially simpler....many solve themselves.

To imply that not having a ID to vote racist is BS.

Everyone of age has an ID.


You need an ID for nearly anything important.
Buying
Smokes,
Liquor,
Airplane tickets

Getting a job
Getting a Gun
To drive
To get a passport
Buying groceries and paying with a check.
Buying some forms of medicine

Opening a bank account
Apply for food stamps
Apply for welfare
Apply for Medicaid/Social Security
Apply for unemployment
Rent/buy a house
Drive/buy/rent a car
Get married


This false argument is brought up by Democrats every election.