@xxovercastxx

I apologize for my tardiness. I'll try to slice my way through your response while the aftertaste of this thread still lingers. It's rapidly fading from memory.

1. Relating to the proposition that prioritizing issues is invalid

This seems to be an argument that arises logically and naturally. Starting from the top, the quantity of world resources exceeds the requirements of any given problem at any given time. The idea that lesser issues ought to be sidelined until we have resolved the greater ones, amongst which we might consider genocides, global warming, poverty and disease, strikes me as both bizarre and having no logical foundation to stand on.

I share, completely, the concerns and convictions that relate to those greater problems, and they are indeed deserving of all of our collective attention. However, the human species, and its capacity for problem solving, are not analogous to a single-core CPU; we are capable of confronting more than one thing at one time. We need not be exclusivist, dealing with issues in a step-by-step manner until we've worked our way down the chain of strife, and to contend that lesser issues are not even worth our time while greater evils remain is daft and short-sighted.

2. Consent

You mention Yogi's point about the voluntary nature of joining and participating in the Church of Scientology. Many of the techniques that Scientology employs to keep people in the church, to keep them isolated from information and criticism of the church, and to disconnect people from those outside the church are outlined in the very video to which this thread belongs. I do not believe that consent makes legitimate the manipulation of people in the church to stay in the church. I do not believe that consent granted by someone of compromised judgement is legitimate. I don't believe that these premises give me a legitimate moral basis for acting contrary to people's wishes, when their judgement is compromised and consent is ill-given, but I do think it must negate the idea that these people are acting autonomously, sensibly, intelligently and with their best interests in mind.

Basically, I say that their choices are sometimes invalid in cases where their independence has been compromised, but I also say that I have no right to intervene and contradict whatever free will they're exerting. Manipulation, propaganda and indoctrination are they key words, and they're techniques being used to enormous effect in the CoS, as the documentary above illustrates quite well.

3. 9/11 conspiracy comparison / straw-man assessment

"Look I get you want to be up in arms about this, it's something you've put a lot of stock into. It's pretty much like 9/11 conspiracy theories. You can talk and post and tell people they're full of shit when they question why this is such a big deal but you've missed the point. You've been completely neutralized, we don't have to worry about you actually bringing about any sort of change that's meaningful since you're going after this silly Religion."

I still don't think I overplayed it. I understand what you're getting at, but I believe my interpretation is closer to what he meant.

> Look I get you want to be up in arms about this, it's something you've put a lot of stock into. It's pretty much like 9/11 conspiracy theories.

This statement stands by itself. It's not connected to the following except by proximity, which is :

> You can talk and post and tell people they're full of shit when they question why this is such a big deal but you've missed the point.

In the second portion of this, Yogi is referring to the current discussion, and both my and Genji's disagreement with the idea that the CoS is no big deal. Thus the second sentence is self-contained and the 9/11 conspiracy statement is concluded immediately after it's mentioned. Logically, this must mean that a connection, even if vague, is being made between two very different positions : he's saying that our, or mine, or Genji's objectivity is compromised to the extent that we are almost fanatical. That is the comparison being made, and the comparison to which I have been referring.

When I say that Yogi was suggesting our objectivity was compromised, several things give it away. The biggest is "want to be up in arms about this". "Want to" implies a personal investment that we'd not be willing to surrender and that the participation goes beyond a moral assessment, and into the realm of the irrational. "It's something you've put a lot of stock into" suggests, again, a personal investment that mandates never surrendering in argument, and having an irrational attachment to your position. Thirdly, "it's pretty much like 9/11 conspiracy theories". There are several ways you can interpret this, but it suggests to me that he thinks the opposition is fundamentally irrational, disconnected from reality and deeply biased to a particular outcome, irregardless of the actual conditions from which you draw your moral conclusion about the CoS. Thus, he seemed to think that the sentiment was immovable and the argument was only doing the bidding of an invulnerable bias.

I disagree with you. I don't think it was a straw man that I installed, I think it was a valid and accurate interpretation of what he was saying. I will concede, though, that it's easy to misread me as misreading him, based on what mention I made of the 9/11 thing. If that makes sense.

4. Genji suggesting Yogi was an irrational, thick-skulled, sick fuck who might kill kittens

I wasn't shocked. I thought it was in bad taste at the time, and I still do. I'm not used to the dynamics of debates that aren't 1-on-1, and I make no apology for it.

5. The Genji-won't-do-nothin'; the twisting of a statement

> "You've been completely neutralized, we don't have to worry about you actually bringing about any sort of change that's meaningful since you're going after this silly Religion.

You won't help anyone, you won't effect anything, you'll just stamp your feet and get all pissed off over the internet about things that simply aren't important. Now run along and keep doing that, I'm going over here to feed these homeless people some sammiches"

This comment, to me, suggests and suggested that Yogi was implying the following, and forgive my shoddy paraphrasing:

"You are absorbed by a non-issue. You could be investing your time in an actual problem, and perhaps be contributing to a resolution. You will have no effect on anything important, because you are involved in something that is a waste of your time; an irrelevant problem."

"You won't help anyone, you won't effect anything" needs no interpretation or translation of any kind. Surely this statement is unambiguous. Was I really twisting his statement? Perhaps I could've articulated myself better, but was I wrong? I say not, and I think as I did then.

6. My First Hypocrisy : An adventure in target management, Drive-by commenting, etc.

You're right that I should've commented on what GK actually said. It's not hypocrisy, but it was unfair and unbalanced.

I was referring to you with the drive-by assessment comment. I felt as if you had installed yourself into the discussion and had promptly left it, when there seemed to be no need for moderation. I think, in light of the scope of the post I'm responding to, I'd be happy to apologize for that.

I didn't realize you meant GK. Now I do. Woo.

I think that's it. Thanks.

>> ^Reefie:

>> ^Yogi:
Like I said in the preview of this Documentary, what has Scientology done that we should care about? I see here some people not seeing their relatives through...choices of their own. And a woman committing suicide...again a choice of her own. Really I can't find any proof that Scientology is responsible for any deaths whatsoever. So why should I care? Let them worship whatever they want with their stupid "All psychiatrists are evil" nonsense, it doesn't matter. Now back to my Sammich.

It appears to all who are reading your post that you have not had any direct contact with someone who has been affected by any cult (let alone scientology), and therefore do not care in the slightest.


Yeah you know who I've had direct contact with. Genocide victims...rape victims...soldiers with PTSD. And with that context of War and hate and death, I'm suddenly not caring of a little cult that people choose to join, and choose to stay with. If they are not choosing it then call the cops...if they are then it's not an issue I'm interested in. I'm interested in the priest speaking out for the poor who is machine gunned in an alley. I'm interested in the company knowingly spreading deadly chemicals where our children play and not being allowed to prosecute them. I'm worried about those who cannot defend themselves. I'm completely unaware of Scientologists gunning people down in alleys and using the government to take over whatever they want. The day that happens let me know and I'll be beside you. Right now though...it just sounds like they're of less importance than what I'm lobbying the government for and spending my time studying and worrying about.

>> ^Yogi:
Like I said in the preview of this Documentary, what has Scientology done that we should care about? I see here some people not seeing their relatives through...choices of their own. And a woman committing suicide...again a choice of her own. Really I can't find any proof that Scientology is responsible for any deaths whatsoever. So why should I care? Let them worship whatever they want with their stupid "All psychiatrists are evil" nonsense, it doesn't matter. Now back to my Sammich.


It appears to all who are reading your post that you have not had any direct contact with someone who has been affected by any cult (let alone scientology), and therefore do not care in the slightest. Having read your replies to the responses that informed you of entirely valid answers to your original question I can see that you prefer to remain ignorant. That's fine by me matey, it's your choice to remain ignorant!

I used to think the ICOC was one of the worst cults because of their tactics of disconnection (similar to the disconnection practices of Scientology and is exercised early on so that the only people a victim is in contact with are also members of the cult thereby ensuring that complete social disconnection can be enforced should the victim ever become non-compliant) and their requirement of regular tithe payments once they've successfully cut you off from people who aren't members of the cult. These last few years the practices of Scientology make the ICOC look reasonable in contrast.

If you're unwilling to acknowledge that what scientology has been doing is extremely damaging to individuals and much more so than accepted religions such as Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, and so on then you are deliberately shielding yourself from the media. Wait, that's what scientologists do isn't it? Better be careful there mate, you wouldn't want to be mistaken for a scientologist!

>> ^GenjiKilpatrick:

@<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/Yogi" title="member since May 15th, 2009" class="profilelink">Yogi
Scientology is no worse than the Catholic Church, eh?
You mean the same catholics church that RAPES PREPUBESCENT BOYS?! By the truck load.
" Scientology hasn't killed nearly as many people or extorted nearly as much money as the Catholic church. I mean, they haven't even committed mass conversion & genocide yet so why don't you just leave them be, huh? "
How thick is your skull that you can't comprehend how fucked a viewpoint that is?
You're irrational.


Is there any evidence they've killed anyone? Is there any evidence they're about to? No you're just crazy.

Look I get you want to be up in arms about this, it's something you've put a lot of stock into. It's pretty much like 9/11 conspiracy theories. You can talk and post and tell people they're full of shit when they question why this is such a big deal but you've missed the point. You've been completely neutralized, we don't have to worry about you actually bringing about any sort of change that's meaningful since you're going after this silly Religion.

You won't help anyone, you won't effect anything, you'll just stamp your feet and get all pissed off over the internet about things that simply aren't important. Now run along and keep doing that, I'm going over here to feed these homeless people some sammiches

>> ^Gallowflak:

>> ^Yogi:
Like I said in the preview of this Documentary, what has Scientology done that we should care about? I see here some people not seeing their relatives through...choices of their own. And a woman committing suicide...again a choice of her own. Really I can't find any proof that Scientology is responsible for any deaths whatsoever. So why should I care? Let them worship whatever they want with their stupid "All psychiatrists are evil" nonsense, it doesn't matter. Now back to my Sammich.

Right, it doesn't matter. Unless you happen to take issue with the overt corporatism and incredible wealth of the church, as gained through exploitation; leading people through a breadcrumb trail of supposed self-development, with soaring costs the further up you go. Unless you happen to take issue with their opposition to freedom of information and of media whererever such things allow for criticism of the church. Unless you happen to take issue with the fact that Scientologists are impregnating themselves into every area of bureaucracy and, in some cases, law enforcement, and will do whatever the CoS tells them to do. Unless you happen to take issue with the outright and blatant propagandism, lies, obfuscation, intimidation, shit-slinging tactics of the CoS. Unless you happen to take issue with the fact that the CoS is an exceptionally streamlined brainwashing engine - a cult in the most obvious sense - who will destroy lives relentlessly just to maintain the cohesion of the church.
They have unimaginable wealth. They can afford any lawyer and they can afford any lawsuit. They can buy their way into whichever parts of society and establishment that they want to. They employ extremely potent indoctrination techniques and they'll keep on growing and spreading, all under the cushy facade of being a "religion". I think that's a problem. You don't have to agree, but at least be honest; when you say "what has Scientology done that we should care about", you really mean I . Well, I can't speak for you and nor would I presume to, but this cult bothers the fuck out of me, and I'm not going to stop protesting the CoS any time soon.
Enjoy your sammich.


If you want to fight Corporatism that matters start with Monsanto. Start with Newscorp...start with something that has a very large and easily studied effect on every Americans lives. Not just the people who join the Church of Scientology or investigate the church of scientology. If this was such a big block of power in the United States you actually think this documentary would get made? This isn't something that should even concern us, compared to so many other things in our government and corporate entities right now...this is the least of our worries.

>> ^GenjiKilpatrick:

So an organization that brainwashes, enslaves, mentally verbally and physically abuses, blackmails and bankrupts innocent people seeking spiritual enrichment, its very own members nonetheless, isn't something humanity should care about?!?!
If you sincerely believe that then you're one sick fuck. Like, you're worst than the videogame cat murder.
Also, probably difficult to see things you aren't looking for.
Victims of Scientology
>> ^Yogi:
Like I said in the preview of this Documentary, what has Scientology done that we should care about? I see here some people not seeing their relatives through...choices of their own. And a woman committing suicide...again a choice of her own. Really I can't find any proof that Scientology is responsible for any deaths whatsoever. So why should I care? Let them worship whatever they want with their stupid "All psychiatrists are evil" nonsense, it doesn't matter. Now back to my Sammich.



Again there's no evidence that anything they're doing is worse than the catholic church. You should bust in on their mass and scream that they're brainwashing and enslaving people. They have choice here, they can join or they can not. I don't see enough evidence to point to that they're ruining anyones lives or snatching people off the street and doing terrible things to them. If you wanna get mad about this sort of thing fine, but it tells me that we have it really really good in America if an organization that is completely voluntary an mostly innocuous is getting this much static. I mean other countries have real shit to worry about, people in black vans pulling their loved ones from their homes and killing them in alleys...and we're concerned because these people follow us around with cameras?

>> ^Yogi:

Like I said in the preview of this Documentary, what has Scientology done that we should care about? I see here some people not seeing their relatives through...choices of their own. And a woman committing suicide...again a choice of her own. Really I can't find any proof that Scientology is responsible for any deaths whatsoever. So why should I care? Let them worship whatever they want with their stupid "All psychiatrists are evil" nonsense, it doesn't matter. Now back to my Sammich.


Right, it doesn't matter. Unless you happen to take issue with the overt corporatism and incredible wealth of the church, as gained through exploitation; leading people through a breadcrumb trail of supposed self-development, with soaring costs the further up you go. Unless you happen to take issue with their opposition to freedom of information and of media whererever such things allow for criticism of the church. Unless you happen to take issue with the fact that Scientologists are impregnating themselves into every area of bureaucracy and, in some cases, law enforcement, and will do whatever the CoS tells them to do. Unless you happen to take issue with the outright and blatant propagandism, lies, obfuscation, intimidation, shit-slinging tactics of the CoS. Unless you happen to take issue with the fact that the CoS is an exceptionally streamlined brainwashing engine - a cult in the most obvious sense - who will destroy lives relentlessly just to maintain the cohesion of the church.

They have unimaginable wealth. They can afford any lawyer and they can afford any lawsuit. They can buy their way into whichever parts of society and establishment that they want to. They employ extremely potent indoctrination techniques and they'll keep on growing and spreading, all under the cushy facade of being a "religion". I think that's a problem. You don't have to agree, but at least be honest; when you say "what has Scientology done that *we* should care about", you really mean *I*. Well, I can't speak for you and nor would I presume to, but this cult bothers the fuck out of me, and I'm not going to stop protesting the CoS any time soon.

Enjoy your sammich.

So an organization that brainwashes, enslaves, mentally verbally and physically abuses, blackmails and bankrupts innocent people seeking spiritual enrichment, its very own members nonetheless, isn't something humanity should care about?!?!

If you sincerely believe that then you're one sick fuck. Like, you're worst than the videogame cat murder.

Also, probably difficult to see things you aren't looking for.

Victims of Scientology

>> ^Yogi:

Like I said in the preview of this Documentary, what has Scientology done that we should care about? I see here some people not seeing their relatives through...choices of their own. And a woman committing suicide...again a choice of her own. Really I can't find any proof that Scientology is responsible for any deaths whatsoever. So why should I care? Let them worship whatever they want with their stupid "All psychiatrists are evil" nonsense, it doesn't matter. Now back to my Sammich.

Like I said in the preview of this Documentary, what has Scientology done that we should care about? I see here some people not seeing their relatives through...choices of their own. And a woman committing suicide...again a choice of her own. Really I can't find any proof that Scientology is responsible for any deaths whatsoever. So why should I care? Let them worship whatever they want with their stupid "All psychiatrists are evil" nonsense, it doesn't matter. Now back to my Sammich.

Ya know if Scientology killed even just a few people...I'd care. But there's just no evidence that it has. People can make their own choices...let them believe in Scientology, I've got a sammich to make.

"You are so bad!"

"Get me a sammich."

Yo dawg, I herd you like sammiches.
>> ^NordlichReiter:

>> ^EDD:
>> ^blankfist:
Shouldn't Stephanie Mercier be spending less time making videos and more time fetching me a sandwich?

A-hem. I trust you will find it is spelled "sammich", good chap. Cheerio.
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Cool story bro.

>> ^EDD:

>> ^blankfist:
Shouldn't Stephanie Mercier be spending less time making videos and more time fetching me a sandwich?

A-hem. I trust you will find it is spelled "sammich", good chap. Cheerio.
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Cool story bro.

>> ^blankfist:

Shouldn't Stephanie Mercier be spending less time making videos and more time fetching me a sandwich?


A-hem. I trust you will find it is spelled "sammich", good chap. Cheerio.

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She needs a sammich...