>> ^lucky760:
That guy got his products sold on Pitchmen (the show on Discovery that starred Billy Mays before his death). Seems like a gimmicky product to me if you can just stick some aluminum foil in your wallet or purse to prevent your RFID-embedded cards from getting scanned, and I believe you can (though I don't have a reliable source to cite).


Even if there is a simple fix (aluminum foil) to this problem, and you ran commercials 24 hours a day regarding this situation, I'm guessing I could still use this to get thousands of credit card numbers. I might not get yours or a few others, but I will get a shit load.

Society doesn't have a moral obligation to refrain from expressing their disapproval, they have a moral obligation to refrain from disapproving in the first place. It's always wrong to oppose the right.

You have a very democratic attitude to opinion for someone so opposed to racism. You say everyone's entitled to express their beliefs, this expression extending to false imprisonment in the hypothetical case of the justified pickpocket, regardless of the integrity of their position.

This is how you build objectivity in a relative universe. Moral philosophy is like mathematics, we take the fewest and most fundamental set of assumptions possible to construct a workable model. So, these axioms are never of the sort "stealing is wrong", but rather "logic works" and "other people exist." Basic, necessary stuff; none of it provably true. Anyone can reject these assumptions with total authority, but they have to throw out all morality with them.

My position on racism is that racists are criminals, whether their criminality comes out of their face or their fists or just sits stewing in their head. A person using words in the english language may or may not be a criminal just as a person driving a car or looking at a tree may or may not be a criminal.

>> ^gorillaman:

Now, we can't allow ourselves to collapse into moral relativism. Working from common axioms, distinctions may be drawn between when it is appropriate to reassign property and when it is not. But there are legitimate reasons to steal a wallet, of course there are, because theft is action, and action is dependant on a directing mind; and the mind is always accountable, and never the action.

Ah, but what are the legitimate reasons to steal a wallet? Specifically, is merely a rejection of those common axioms sufficient to exculpate someone from the moral wrongness of stealing?

Beyond that, is it sufficient to then turn that around and say that the victim of pickpocketing is morally wrong to object or express disapproval of the pickpocket's actions once the pickpocket makes his philosophy clear?

That's your stated position on racism.

From where I sit, that goes far beyond mere moral relativism -- not only are you saying that people should only be judged by their own moral standard, you're saying that refusing to embrace that level of moral relativism is in fact an objective moral ill.
>> ^gorillaman:
What if your band of pickpocket provocateurs' ideology were correct? Would society's disapproval invalidate it?

No, but it also doesn't mean that society has some moral obligation to refrain from expressing their disapproval, either.

It doesn't have to be knowable in any objective sense, nothing is knowable in any objective sense, it just has to be acknowledged as the absolute soul of the question.

Now, we can't allow ourselves to collapse into moral relativism. Working from common axioms, distinctions may be drawn between when it is appropriate to reassign property and when it is not. But there are legitimate reasons to steal a wallet, of course there are, because theft is action, and action is dependant on a directing mind; and the mind is always accountable, and never the action.

What if your band of pickpocket provocateurs' ideology were correct? Would society's disapproval invalidate it?>> ^NetRunner:
But "what you are" isn't knowable in any objective sense. It certainly isn't defined by your own opinion in the matter.

>> ^gorillaman:

Right. Our actions are indicators of our character, but it's character that counts. Action doesn't exist in the moral dimension. If I want to pick your pocket, it doesn't matter whether I get around to doing it or not. If I'm a racist, it doesn't matter what I say; if I'm not a racist it doesn't matter what I say. It's all about what I am.

But "what you are" isn't knowable in any objective sense. It certainly isn't defined by your own opinion in the matter.

Back to the example of the pickpocket. What if he believes that property rights are a big fat lie perpetrated by people who just want an excuse to tell people what to do and how to act. He's not committing a crime, he's making a bold criticism of his society, and exposing how unreasonable people act over such a non-event as taking a few pieces of paper out of someone's pockets.

Is he a pickpocket? He doesn't think so. Does society think he's a pickpocket? Almost certainly. Is that the standard though? Objectively you can say he's broken laws and customs of the land he's in, and the word we use for that particular crime is "pickpocketing", and we've set up a system where we punish people for that particular infraction of social norms. It doesn't really establish what he is, but people will call him "a pickpocket" rather than "a person who picked someone's pocket".

Now technically, that's not really fair. An organized group of like-minded pickpockets could start trying to stigmatize calling people a pickpocket, since it's not really fair to conflate what a person's done with who they are. For that matter, a lot of pickpockets think the term "pickpocketing" is derogatory, and resent being called that. They think of themselves as defenders of property-blindness -- after all, only prejudiced propertarians can tell the difference between what's theirs and what's not...

This is the kind of arguments we hear all the time about race. Racism is clear cut, and easy to spot. Racism can happen unintentionally, just like stealing ("Oh, is that your pen?") and just like unintentional stealing, it becomes a much more grave offense if they don't own up to it or make amends for it ("Are you calling me a thief? I should sue you for libel you anti-theifite!"), and reflects even more negatively on the character of the offender.

Right. Our actions are indicators of our character, but it's character that counts. Action doesn't exist in the moral dimension. If I want to pick your pocket, it doesn't matter whether I get around to doing it or not. If I'm a racist, it doesn't matter what I say; if I'm not a racist it doesn't matter what I say. It's all about what I am.>> ^NetRunner:
But that leads to the obvious question, what does a cop do in order to establish guilt in court? They document to the best of their ability "what they did." I would argue that it's essentially impossible to prove "what they are" in any conclusive way. The best you can do in any situation is look at what they've done.
That's why I think saying "I'm not a racist" is no defense when you've said or done something racist, just like "I am not a pickpocket" is no defense when you've just been caught picking someone's pocket.

Ah, but by your standard, Dr. Laura is not a racist. She clearly doesn't think she is one, and she says she doesn't have any problem with race. She also makes the same sorts of assertions you have, namely that the big problem with race is that black people are too sensitive about stereotyping and the n-word.

I'm also having trouble deciding which side of the "what they did" vs. "what they are" argument you're trying to take up.
>> ^gorillaman:

The 'what they did' conversation is not a conversation anybody needs to have, not even when someone picks your pocket. A person doesn't pick a pocket in a vacuum of circumstance, they do it because of 'what they are'.

So people shouldn't be judged on what they've done, but on what they are, even with pickpocketing.
>> ^gorillaman:
I'd be careful applying that rule of thumb to spot racists. Like a cop who thinks he can tell when his suspect's guilty, it leads to trouble.

I agree with that, but that's why it's a rule of thumb.

But that leads to the obvious question, what does a cop do in order to establish guilt in court? They document to the best of their ability "what they did." I would argue that it's essentially impossible to prove "what they are" in any conclusive way. The best you can do in any situation is look at what they've done.

That's why I think saying "I'm not a racist" is no defense when you've said or done something racist, just like "I am not a pickpocket" is no defense when you've just been caught picking someone's pocket.

Yeah, usually the pickpocketing happens in a crowd. If it can't react to foreign touch on the wallet it'll be pretty useless. You'll just notice it earlier, but thefts it won't stop

Hmm.. Cool. Thank you, sir!

In reply to this comment by Shepppard:
I've played through the entire game on Ps3, and I can prettymuch tell you that he really IS being overly-critical for the most part.

The money isn't useless, there's actually neat money-sinks in the game that allow you to do things like purchase upgrades for Monteregionni(Your villa) including art made during the renaissance, and you can't pickpocket things like throwing knives anymore. You can loot dead bodies and maybe find one every once in a while, but you've still gotta pay for the majority of replenishment for Poisons, bullets, knives, smoke bombs etc.

The game itself isn't easy for the most part, combat can be made quite easy because it really is just a lot of standing in a circle waiting to counter-attack for the easy I-win button, but I preferred to make it a challenge to start the fight by trying to assassinate as many guards as possible (Say, in a group of 4 or 6) before the first one I killed fell, and the rest noticed I was killing their buddies.

It's still a damn fine game.. just, bit of an off ending. The one complaint I have is you're supposed to get all these symbol things throughout the game before you complete the game, but if you don't find them it doesn't make as much sense.

That being said, now you know.


In reply to this comment by ForgedReality:
>> ^KnivesOut:
Well, I still bought it, but I haven't played it yet. We'll see. I actually really liked the first one, even with the repetitive mission structure.


So did I. I played it on PC, and I found it to be a lot of fun going through and doing every single side mission before attempting the plot missions, cleaning out each area of the city.

But the whole thing about it being too easy? And the uselessness of the money system? I dunno. That might be a deal breaker for me right there

I've played through the entire game on Ps3, and I can prettymuch tell you that he really IS being overly-critical for the most part.

The money isn't useless, there's actually neat money-sinks in the game that allow you to do things like purchase upgrades for Monteregionni(Your villa) including art made during the renaissance, and you can't pickpocket things like throwing knives anymore. You can loot dead bodies and maybe find one every once in a while, but you've still gotta pay for the majority of replenishment for Poisons, bullets, knives, smoke bombs etc.

The game itself isn't easy for the most part, combat can be made quite easy because it really is just a lot of standing in a circle waiting to counter-attack for the easy I-win button, but I preferred to make it a challenge to start the fight by trying to assassinate as many guards as possible (Say, in a group of 4 or 6) before the first one I killed fell, and the rest noticed I was killing their buddies.

It's still a damn fine game.. just, bit of an off ending. The one complaint I have is you're supposed to get all these symbol things throughout the game before you complete the game, but if you don't find them it doesn't make as much sense.

That being said, now you know.


In reply to this comment by ForgedReality:
>> ^KnivesOut:
Well, I still bought it, but I haven't played it yet. We'll see. I actually really liked the first one, even with the repetitive mission structure.


So did I. I played it on PC, and I found it to be a lot of fun going through and doing every single side mission before attempting the plot missions, cleaning out each area of the city.

But the whole thing about it being too easy? And the uselessness of the money system? I dunno. That might be a deal breaker for me right there

It's almost ten o clock see i got a ball of lifted property
so i slid my beenie hat on sloppily
and promenade out to take up a collection
i got game like i read the directions
i 'm wishing that i had an automobile
as i feel the cold wind rush past
but let me state that i am a hustler for real
so you know i got the stolen bus pass
just as the bus pulls up and i step to the rear
this ole lady look like she drank a forty of fear
i see my ole school partner said his brother got popped
pay my respects
can you ring the bell we came to my stop
the street light reflects off the piss on the ground
which reflects off the hamburger sign as it turns round
which reflects off the chrome of the bmw
which reflects off the fact that i am broke
now what the fuck is new
i need loot i sweat the motherfucka
in the tweed suit
and i'm on his ass quicker than a kick from a grease boot
eased up slow and discreet
could tell he was suspicious by the way he slid his feet
didn't wanna fuck up the come on
so i smiled with my eyes said hey how it's hanging guy
bumped into his shoulders but he passed with no reaction
damn this motherfucka had a hella of andrew jacksons
i'm a thief or pickpocket give a fuck what you call it
used to call em fat cats.
i just call them wallets getting federal aint just a klepto
master card or visa i'd gladly accept those
sneaky motherfucka with a scam know how to pull it
got a mirror in my pocket but that wont stop no bullets
story just begun but you already know
aint no need to get down shit i'm already low

My footsteps echo in the darkness
my teeth clenched tight like a fist in the cold sharp mist
i look down and i hear my somach growling
step to burger king to attack it like a shaolin
i never pay for shit that i can get by doing dirt
link up to the girl cashier and start to flirt
all up in her face and her breath was like murder
damn the shit i do for a free hamburger
(girl )"well you got my number you gonna call me tonite"
it depends is them burgers attached to a price
"sorry sorry"
im just kidding i'ma call you write you love letters
"it's all good"
thanks for the burgers emm hook me up with a dr pepper.
(girl)thats cool you want some ice
yeah and some fries will be hella nice
(girl) damn my managers coming play it off okay have a nice day
im up outta here anyway
i use peoples before they use me
cos you could get got by an uzi over an oz
thats what an og told me
gots to find someplace warm and cozy to eat the vittles that i just got
came to an underground parking lot
this place is good as any fuck its all good
walked in found a car hopped itself up on a hood
ate my burger threw back my cola
somebody said hey it was a rented pig i thought it was a roller
"want me to call the cops?"
i dont want them to see me
looked down and saw that i was sitting on a lamboughini
it was rollses ferraris and jags by the dozen
a building door opened
damn it was my cousin
getting offa work dressed up no lie
tux cummerband and a blackbow tie
i was like hey
"who is it"
me
"oh whats up man i just quit this company
they hella racist and the pay was too low "
i said arite what was up in there though
"a party with rich motherfuckas i dont know the situation
i know they got cabbage owning corporations
ibm chryslers and shit is what they seeing"
just then a light bulb went off in my head
they be thinking all black folks is resembling
gimme your tux and i'll do some pocket swindling
fit the change in the bathroom and i freeze off my nuts
lets take a short break
while i get into this tux
grunt zipp
alright i'm ready

Fresh dressed like a million bucks
i be the flyiest muthafucka in an afro and a tux
my arm is at a right angle up silver tray in my hand
may i interest you in some caviar mam
my eyes shoots round the room there and here
noticing the diamonds in the chandelier
background barry manilow copacobana
and a strong ass scent of stoagies from havana
what no place where a brother might been
snobby ole ladies drinking champagne with rich white men
allrite then lets begin this
nights like this is good for business
five minutes in the mix noticed several diffrent cliques
talking giggling and shit
well one mother fucka gave me twits
and everbody else jacking it throttling
found out later you know coca cola bottling
talking to a black man who he's confused
we looking hella bourgie
ass all tight and seditty
recognzed him as the mayor of my city
who treats young black man like frank nitty
mr coke said to mr mayor "you know we got a process like ice t's hair
we put up the fund for your election campaign
and oh um waiter can you bring the champagne"
a real estate fronts as opportunities arousing
to make some condos out of low income housing
immediately we need some media heat
to say that gangs run the street and then we bring in the police fleet
harrasing me everbody till they look inebriated
when we bought the land motherfuckas will appreciate it
dont worry about the urban league or jesse jackson
my man that owns marlboros
donated a fat sum
thats when i step back some to contemplate what few know
sat down wrestle with my thoughts like a sumo
aint no one player that could beat this lunancy
aint no hustler on the street could do a whole community
this is how deep shit can get
it reads macaroni on my birth certificate
poontang is my middle name but i cant hang
i'm getting hustled
only knowing half the game
shit how the fuck do i get out of this place.

No problem, man. My to-be-promoted playlist is filled with your vids for some reason

In reply to this comment by deputydog:
thankyou very much

In reply to this comment by rasch187:
*promote

thankyou very much

In reply to this comment by rasch187:
*promote

Even better Krupo, you can get an acheivement for doing what comes natural... or at least natural for me (10G, Psychotic Prankster). I can't tell you how many people I 'asploded' in Fallout 2 with time bombs and pickpocketing

Nope, this is real. It's the classic Golden Age video production look and feel to it. Elrond is saying that the tools to just walk on down "the Bridge" are right there. You just have to do it. Just put on those boots and walk through those paper-thin walls that are holding you back.

(By the way, the "Bridge" to Total Freedom means that you are on a bridge that keeps infinately spawning trolls that pickpocket your $$$$ thereby making it harder to level up)