I do know about it, but you were talking about sending troops onto new battlegrounds in N. Korea and Sudan.

I think before we start more wars, we need to do more diplomacy and foreign aid.

The answer to both North Korea and Darfur/Sudan is China. We have a relationship with them now, let's twist their arm a little.

If we invaded Sudan, what's the mission? If we invated N. Korea, what's the mission?

Toppling the existing regime and replacing it with one of our own design?

No thanks. Been there, done that.

In reply to this comment by deedub81:
Just saw this comment from back in the day.

Do you not know about all the help we have provided around the world that has nothing to do with violence?



In reply to this comment by NetRunner:
^ Can't the US do something around the world that doesn't involve the military?

Lyrics:

Obama on the left
McCain on the right
We can talk politics all night
And you can vote however you like
You can vote however you like, yeah

Democratic left
Republican right
November 4th we decide
And you can vote however you like
You can vote however you like, yeah

(McCain supporters)
McCain is the man
Fought for us in Vietnam
You know if anyone can
Help our country he can
Taxes droppin low
Dont you know oils gonna flow
Drill it low
I'll show our economy will grow

McCain's the best candidate
With Palin as his running mate
They'll fight for gun rights, pro life,
The conservative right
Our future is bright
Better economy in site
And all the world will feel our military might

(Obama supporters)
But McCain and Bush are real close right
They vote alike and keep it tight
Obama's new, he's younger too
The Middle Class he will help you
He'll bring a change, he's got the brains
McCain and Bush are just the same
You are to blame, Iraq's a shame
Four more years would be insane

Lower your Taxes - you know Obama Won't
PROTECT THE LOWER CLASS - You know McCain won't!
Have enough experience - you know that they don't
STOP GLOBAL WARMING - you know that you won't

I want Obama
FORGET OBAMA
Stick with McCain and you're going to have some drama
We need it
HE'LL BRING IT
He'll be it
YOU'LL SEE IT
We'll do it
GET TO IT
Let's move it
DO IT!

Obama on the left
McCain on the right
We can talk politics all night
And you can vote however you like
You can vote however you like, yeah

Democratic left
Republican right
November 4th we decide
And you can vote however you like, I said
You can vote however you like, yeah

I'm talking big pipe lines, and low gas prices
Below $2.00 that would be nice

But to do it right we gotta start today
Finding renewable ways that are here to stay

I want Obama
FORGET OBAMA,
Stick wit McCain you gone have some drama
MORE WAR IN IRAQ
Iran he will attack
CAN'T BRING OUR TROOPS BACK
We gotta vote Barack!

Obama on the left
McCain on the right
We can talk politics all night
And you can vote however you like, I said
You can vote however you like, yeah

Democratic left
Republican right
November 4th we decide
And you can vote however you like, I said
You can vote however you like, yeah

Earmarks vary so much is it not fair to say they fund this or that. EVERY administration has them and they fund every administration differentlly. I immagine that GWB had plenty of earmarks in defense and I imagine that those will continue with either candidate. The bad news is that that will mean more war, the good news is that that might mean a shorter war and that that might mean some substantial technological advances for us and the world as it has been in the past. In other words, every time NASA has had a deadline, it has produced technologies that we use in our houses (globaly) every freaking day.

If we never funded defense funding, we'd still be using swords. We are using more and more specific weapons. There may be a day when we can appoint a weapon to a specific person
and say "go" and it will. THAT is what we want.

As for biomedical earmarks, they are purely political. If a candidate pushes stem cells, in any form, know that he is following his advisers and their peers. None of the candidates understand what stem cells are or what they mean. Likewise goes for viral vectors for medicines.

Revolution through violence - because the ends justify the means.

Before you enter the fight and start throwing righteous fists ask yourself what you're fighting for. America doesn't need any more Wars in the name of...

Upvote for peaceful protest. Let your voices be your weapons and your words your ammunition folks.

Yes, awesome! And mine three!

Is it me, or do we hear alternative lyrics after the solo? (Maybe he just forgot the real ones.) Too bad, because I always liked that last verse from the LP:

Now in darkness, world stops turning
As the war machine keeps burning
No more war pigs of the power
Hand of God has sturck the hour
Day of judgement, God is calling
On their knees, the war pigs crawling
Begging mercy for their sins
Satan, laughing, spreads his wings
All right now!

>> ^Irishman:
>> ^NetRunner:
Your definition of neocon is about as accurate as me calling Ron Paul an anarchist. They have a couple things they agree on, but they're definitely not one and the same. Pure flamebait, frankly.
Who do you think we should hand Iraq over to?

A couple of things they agree on. Like policy, and policy.
Obama is flying around the planet making speeches about fighting extremism, Iranian nukes, terrorists hiding in caves plotting to take over America, this is the same exact stuff we've had for 20 years now.
What is wrong with people's heads who can't see this. It's plain daylight stuff folks, the stuff Obama has been saying should really be scaring the shit out of people.
Wrong president America, wrong president. Europe and the rest of the world will NEVER forgive America for electing this man.


MrFisk actually preemptively gave much of my answer, which is that neocons and Democrats are in absolute opposition on domestic policy.

With foreign policy, Neocons are now in favor of a form of imperialism -- drum up casus belli, invade, substitute the old government with a new friendly one, and incidentally get some sort of contract to a material resource (like oil). That's why we invaded Iraq for WMDs that weren't there, while North Korea's nuclear test was met with mere diplomacy. It's why the same gambit is being run in Iran.

Obama just wants us to focus on just fighting to keep the Taliban from re-taking Afghanistan, and working with Pakistan to root out the Al Qaeda camps. Every other foreign policy issue out there, he wants to use diplomacy to solve, though he says he won't shy away from the use of military if necessary (to avoid appearing weak before the ravenous American populace).

As jwray said, all Obama does here is acknowledge that there is some threat, and in fact this is actually a clip of the very speech where he got attacked by McCain for downplaying Iran's threat, because he said it was less threatening than the Soviet Union.

McCain sings "Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran", makes a joke about killing Iranians with cigarettes, and clearly says there will be more wars.

As much as I wish third party candidates had a shot of being President, they simply do not. One of these two will be President.

Between the two, which worries Europe more, the candidate who occasionally talks about potential threats against a backdrop of talking about the need for diplomacy, or the one who cavalierly uses the language of fear every time a camera is stuck in his face, and attacks his opponent for wanting to talk to the leaders of other nations?

I think Europe will be able to forgive us for electing Obama over McCain.

If you're hoping for Cynthia McKinney, Ralph Nader, Bob Barr, or even Ron Paul, as much as I wish they had a fair chance of winning, they simply will not.

You don't just decide to not negotiate with an elected democratic government because you view them as extremists from inside your own culture. Nelson Mandella was an extremist, my own country is now governed by people who murdered and planted bombs in the 1970s, in retaliation to British oppression. They are extremists but they are not terrorists.

Hamas does not exist to stir retaliatory strikes from Isreal, that is American propoganda and is completely untrue. Hamas wants to liberate their country which has been illegally occupied by Isreal and wants to reassemble their nation which is an entirely legal and legitimate goal.

As MP George Galloway has said, a suicide bombing of of a group of Israeli soldiers in illegal occupation of Palestinian lands is an entirely legitimate military act, a suicide bombing of a group of Israeli settlers illegally occupying Palestinian land is an entirely justifiable military action. A suicide bombing of a falafel stall in Tel Aviv is not. A bombing of a nightclub in Haifa is not.

It is not the methods or the weapons that make them terrorists.

Isreal is circling and taking over Palestinian land, the idea that they are encouraging any kind of withdrawal is laughable and untrue.



In reply to this comment by bcglorf:

Hamas is not a splinter group, it has a political mandate and the people put Hamas in power. It is more than an analogy I use, there are Palestinian flags flying in the streets of Belfast right now. The Irish republican parties do not recognise Northern Ireland as being British, that is a political position with democratic support.


I call Hamas a splinter group in the sense of operating through suicide bombers and operating on a mandate to remove all Jews from the region because they are Jewws. In Hamas' sick and twisted version of Islam, that's every good muslim's duty. Did you not even look at the quotes I gave you, go read the whole charter and see for yourselft. That they managed to get a political mandate just makes them all the worse. The extremists in the world need to be marginalized, not dignified by negotiating with them. I'd say negotiating with Fatah and refusing to recognize Hamas until they change their mandate is the proper course.


It is not the moderates who have to be negotiated with, no political struggle has ever been resolved by moderates, it is the extremists who need to negotiate.


And few political struggles with extremists have been resolved through negotiating, that's why history is littered with assassinations, coups, and wars. I'd rather see negotiations with the reasonable elements than lending any strength or dignity to extremists.


Hamas recognising Isreal's right to exist would loose the support of the people who put them in power and is political suicide, no government of Palestine, not Hamas nor anyone else put there by those people can ever do that. If it were not for Hamas Palestine would have been wiped off the map, Isreali troops have been beaten back time and time again by Palestinian forces.


Now your listening too closely to Hamas' propaganda. Hamas runs out of Syria, they are primarily an engine to stir retaliatory strikes from Israel. Syria provides the funding, training, and rockets so Hamas can attack Israeli civilians. Then the Hamas militants hide in civilian homes and mosques and wait to see if Israel will come after them. All the while Syria hopes for as many dead Palestinians as possible to rally more anti-Israeli sentiment. Hamas lacks any real military strength to 'beat back' Israeli forces. Israel has always mantained a policy of short and quick military operations. The only goal they have is to defend their civilians from attack. Taking land is not a goal so there is no invasion for Hamas to even try to beat down.


Whatever the historical context, it is the will of the people today that is paramount, this is the very essence of democracy and it is the only way all of these conflict historically have been resolved. The Isreali and Palestinian people are sick of the bloodshed, but only the Palestinians have taken the political steps. This is exactly how it happened in Ireland.


And what political steps are you proposing Palestinians have taken? Electing Hamas, seems to me to be making things worse and giving a mandate of more war and bloodshed, not less. For Israel's part, their political process has continued to encourage withdrawal from expanded settlements and encouraged the handover of land taken in previous wars over to the Palestinian Authority.

Hamas is not a splinter group, it has a political mandate and the people put Hamas in power. It is more than an analogy I use, there are Palestinian flags flying in the streets of Belfast right now. The Irish republican parties do not recognise Northern Ireland as being British, that is a political position with democratic support.


I call Hamas a splinter group in the sense of operating through suicide bombers and operating on a mandate to remove all Jews from the region because they are Jewws. In Hamas' sick and twisted version of Islam, that's every good muslim's duty. Did you not even look at the quotes I gave you, go read the whole charter and see for yourselft. That they managed to get a political mandate just makes them all the worse. The extremists in the world need to be marginalized, not dignified by negotiating with them. I'd say negotiating with Fatah and refusing to recognize Hamas until they change their mandate is the proper course.


It is not the moderates who have to be negotiated with, no political struggle has ever been resolved by moderates, it is the extremists who need to negotiate.


And few political struggles with extremists have been resolved through negotiating, that's why history is littered with assassinations, coups, and wars. I'd rather see negotiations with the reasonable elements than lending any strength or dignity to extremists.


Hamas recognising Isreal's right to exist would loose the support of the people who put them in power and is political suicide, no government of Palestine, not Hamas nor anyone else put there by those people can ever do that. If it were not for Hamas Palestine would have been wiped off the map, Isreali troops have been beaten back time and time again by Palestinian forces.


Now your listening too closely to Hamas' propaganda. Hamas runs out of Syria, they are primarily an engine to stir retaliatory strikes from Israel. Syria provides the funding, training, and rockets so Hamas can attack Israeli civilians. Then the Hamas militants hide in civilian homes and mosques and wait to see if Israel will come after them. All the while Syria hopes for as many dead Palestinians as possible to rally more anti-Israeli sentiment. Hamas lacks any real military strength to 'beat back' Israeli forces. Israel has always mantained a policy of short and quick military operations. The only goal they have is to defend their civilians from attack. Taking land is not a goal so there is no invasion for Hamas to even try to beat down.


Whatever the historical context, it is the will of the people today that is paramount, this is the very essence of democracy and it is the only way all of these conflict historically have been resolved. The Isreali and Palestinian people are sick of the bloodshed, but only the Palestinians have taken the political steps. This is exactly how it happened in Ireland.


And what political steps are you proposing Palestinians have taken? Electing Hamas, seems to me to be making things worse and giving a mandate of more war and bloodshed, not less. For Israel's part, their political process has continued to encourage withdrawal from expanded settlements and encouraged the handover of land taken in previous wars over to the Palestinian Authority.

Wave the flag. Fight for your country. Not for freedom, but for corporate profits. The expendable is ordinance and people's lives(on both fronts). All for obtaining resources. Resources to wage more war. Resources to raise more profits. Resources to feed the war machine.

Freedom is relative. Freedom is a state of mind, not a reality. Freedom for one individual can be enslavement to another. If you tell a society they are free enough times over a long enough period of time (generations), they will eventually believe they are free. Even if they are not.

All governments and societies eventually fail or change. For better or for worse. The likes of the current world order will change someday. When, we cannot say. How, we cannot be certain.. but it will. The balance of power can never remain stationary. Societies are as malleable as the water we drink, the land which we live upon, and the artificial borders which we isolate ourselves within.

Generals gathered in their masses
Just like witches at black masses
Evil minds that plot destruction
Sorcerers of deaths construction
In the fields the bodies burning
As the war machine keeps turning
Death and hatred to mankind
Poisoning their brainwashed minds, oh lord yeah!

Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor

Time will tell on their power minds
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait till their judgment day comes, yeah!

Now in darkness, world stops turning
As the war machine keeps burning
No more war pigs of the power
Hand of God has struck the hour
Day of judgment, God is calling
On their knees, the war pigs crawling
Begging mercy for their sins
Satan, laughing, spreads his wings
All right now!

joedirt:
Read my comments again and then read my last one very carefully. I know very well where criticism starts and ends. I also know where anti-americanism starts (dunno where it ends yet). I say again that you should visit some german news sites. Whats going on there has nothing to do with criticism anymore.
Questions about Guantanamo are valid and they should be asked. How they are asked is a different question, because most of the time I only hear stuff like "Those fucking americans kill children all around the world, killed more people on this earth than all countries on the earth together, started more wars alone than every nation on the globe together since there is humankind, blew up their own people at 9/11, let Japan knowingly attack their country so they could invade it with a good reason, and now they even have what nazi-germany had in WWII with Guantanamo. When will finally someone bomb THEM to hell?" Comments like that get upvotes to high heaven, and when you say something against that comment (even with valid facts), you get downvoted to hell......
THAT IS CRITICISM???? Thats sounds more like some islamic fundamentalist crap. People gotta be a special kind of idiot to see that as criticism...

>> ^schmawy:
Too bad it only seems to work in SecondLife. It also appears as though this is the year 2035 and we're still fighting in Iraq.


Its very simple, the longer your in Iraq, the more Billions war corporations will earn, in order to make more explosives, for more wars.

>> ^bcglorf:
I'm just saying I draw the line at honesty. I agree that Fox and Co. have gone way beyond that point, that doesn't do anything to make lying about Republicans positions any more acceptable.

All I'm saying is it's disingenuous to lump this in the same category. McCain wants the Iraq war to continue, and wants more war, most likely with Iran.

The quote used here is technically not an expression of that policy, but it's an accurate characterization of his position on the issue.

My main complaint is that the DNC ad pales in comparison to the MoveOn.org ad.

Im an atheist myself, but why do people keep picking on religious people?
I mean, sure there prolly is no god, sure religion is full of lies and sure there are religious extremists. But seriously, what would have happened to this world if people didnt develop religion as a way to share thoughts, beliefs, faith etc? There would have been even more wars actually. It is/was a form of laws. Outdated in lots of ways, but still efficient. And in any way you will have a hard time breaking beliefs with facts and words.

Its a scientific fact that humans have to believe in something bigger than themselves. It has been proven that its in the genes of humankind. EVERYONE, even atheists, believe in something, even though they dont admit it openly. May it be aliens, money, whatever. Its also proven that religious people handle very difficult times in life much better than atheists because they have something pre-made to hang on to.
I am 100% sure that even the hardest atheist nut would start praying eventually if he would be kidnapped and abused for weeks/months/whatever and lost all of his/her self esteem.

Oh and you find ignorance everywhere, not only in religion.
I talk to atheist-"concrete walls" all the time. And no, not about religion.

If you really want to end religion in its current form, you need to invent a new religion that is closer to facts and start spreading it. And prolly even that religion will be outdated in 2000 years from now, if youre even able to replace the current religions with it.

Pretty cool, but of course this means more money wasted on military, instead of I dunno... healthcare, fighting poverty, fixing the economy, education etc. And of course the more military power the US has, the more it will abuse it, the more the US will try to police the world, the more hatred towards the US, the more world tension, the more wars.