Bill didn't repeatedly grab pussies against their will, or go on to brag about it...and he was impeached over the consensual sex he did have....and it was a problem for me, such infidelity coming from my president proves he's disloyal...and the cigar thing...WTF?!

Doesn't make him moral by far, but there's a huge difference between cheating on your wife by having consensual (oral) sex and cheating on all of your wives by raping your friends' wives, assaulting numerous co workers, paying porn stars, paying prostitutes, pressuring beauty pageant contestants, and likely raping your own daughter.

Get a grip, he's an admitted abuser, philanderer, and clearly has no respect for women or marriage, and his concept of loyalty goes one way, he's loyal to nothing.

Also whataboutism is akin to no defense at all, and is just plain dumb when your comparisons are 1/10 as bad as what you're trying to distract from.

1)I considered that argument, I just disagree. Women under some religious laws can't initiate a divorce at all, but I doubt you would argue the lower, near zero divorce rates are evidence that it's a better way of life or leads to better outcomes for those powerless women than normal current American Christianity, would you? I think women who stay in bad marriages for their religion don't usually find it to be a better way of life, they often find it an inescapable trap of hopelessness.

2) you would be hard pressed to find men living up to that ideal and or not taking unfair advantage of their religion given position of dominance. As I recall, the bible also tells you various reasons it's your duty to murder people with rocks, so it's not a bad thing to be a bit loose in your interpretations, but perhaps not that particular instruction.

3)but, if I am created by the creator with reason enough to believe only in things that are at least either logical or verifiable, and God is neither without revealing himself to be more than fable, and he doesn't, it's his decision not mine. If he exists and has miraculous powers including revelation, he chooses to have me not believe by choosing to not prove his own improbable existence, meaning he chooses to create me just for inescapable eternal torture.

I'm not holding both positions, I just wasn't factoring that into the debate. Of course I believe that a Christ centered marriage and home is the best we can do as human beings. We are all flawed but Christ is not and He can give us the power to overcome whatever hurdles stand in the way of a happy marriage.

Waiting until marriage for sex/romance might have made some sense when girls would be married off by 15. (And often dead by 30 from dysentery....) But the world has moved on.

Not sure how you can hold both positions...if the marriage isn't quality, neither is your outcome in life.
Religious marriages where divorce is not an option can be a disastrous outcome....for life, and that isn't an aberration, it may actually be a majority of them.

I'm not really debating about the quality of the marriage, although I believe that would be far better to only love one person and stay with them your entire life. Your argument about the rates being skewed because they are highly religious; it's interesting that you choose to explain that away rather than count it as evidence for the opposing view. That's a classic case of confirmation bias.

When I said Christians raise Christians, I meant it to mean that you shouldn't be surprised that these men are raising their daughters that way. I think you should be thanking God to see a father in this day and age take such an interest in his daughters well being. They are following biblical principles which is exactly what they should be doing.

There are plenty of ex-christian atheists, I understand your point. However, a profession of faith doesn't make you a Christian; God has to do a work in your heart. You have to be born again and many of those "ex" christians never met God. There will be some though that did meet God and fell away from the faith.

No, it's not really a no brainer. The few studies done, when other known factors are considered, showed that virgin marriages had <2% difference in satisfaction, probably within the margin of error....divorce rates are obviously skewed because most virgin couples are extremely religious, which accounts for lower divorce rates...it doesn't mean they have happy or successful marriages.
STDs and unwanted pregnancy are easily avoided with responsible safe sex...granted, most teens aren't very responsible.

Your reasoning is flawed...if Christians raise Christians, (and I assume you think the same goes for other religions) where do atheists come from? Also, you do know that children given abstinence only sex ed, usually Christians, have the highest rates of teen pregnancy and STDs, don't you? Very few follow church instructions once outside of church, that's why less than 5% of marriages are by virgins.

It's really a no-brainer that those who wait until marriage will have better outcomes in life. Teen pregnancy and std statistics tell us that very plainly.

The reasoning for this is simple:

Christian parents raise Christian children. That means, no premarital sex because fornication is a sin. That means you don't date someone except to see if they are suitable as a spouse. That means that as teens are not ready for that kind of commitment they don't need to date. That is why their parents serve as gatekeepers for their children.

The biblical role of a parent is to train their children to know and serve the Lord. It is not to let the world in and allow their children to fornicate in the name of personal freedom. It seems alien to a secular audience because you don't know what kind of life God requires you to live.

I don't think brussel sprouts are food, but I won't be campaigning to stop other people eating them if they want to.

They must think gay marriage devalues the currency, that their marriage will somehow be less sacred because other people have a different idea what it means. As if straight people haven't been fucking it up enough already.

Also, does anybody else find it strange that gay marriage seems to be entirely about men most of the time. Why is that?

ps. Can straight people get a civil partnership now please.

There's really only two arguments against SSM.

1: "I think the institution of marriage is pointless". Great, then don't get married, but kindly fuck off and don't tell the rest of us how to live our lives.

2: "Gay people are icky". Not actually an argument, but at least you're being honest.

On the plus side, there's every chance that this insane waste of money will actually bring an end to the current Australian government. Literally everyone I've talked to in Australia (been there for work recently) thinks this postal vote is a massive waste of taxpayer money. The vast majority are perfectly fine with SSM, and even those against SSM know that this is pointless.

OTOH, if Australia does decide that it really does decide that it wants to continue being a backward, homophobic, rock-on-fire-that-no-one-should-live-in*, well that's just more tourist dollars for NZ!

* just kidding... there are some parts of Australia that are only mildly racist!

I believe he is right in speaking on state's rights but I think his example is not well thought out. He compares many of his and others views on rights and says that it's their turn to act like the rednecks in the 60s who wanted to maintain segregation. Well if he looks back at what happened he won't be too happy. The US government stepped in and said Nope ain't gonna happen and used the courts, military, and other resources to force the beginning of the end of segregation. So to carry his analogy to it's logical conclusion then the US government would step in and say Nope to their sanctuary cities, gay marriage,women's choice, and all of the other concepts he listed.

Like I said I believe in state's rights and agree with him in concept on what he was saying. Just think he used a very poor analogy to make his point.

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Is that what people mean when they say marriage is hard?
So glad I'm single.

Given the polls put support for gay marriage in Aus between 65 and 85%, the only way the no vote will win is through voter apathy.

Conservatives are motivated and will fill out their postal votes. Staunch equal rights activist will of course vote yes. The middle ground in Australia is mostly apathetic and that's where you might find this whole thing falls on it's tits unfortunately.

Annnnnd the plebiscite is not binding... So if the gov still doesn't want to go ahead with it, they don't actually need to (although I suspect they will cop a short term shellacking in the polls because of it).

Sad thing is, the current PM is on record repeatedly as being in favour of same sex marriage, but he is only in power because of right wing power brokers in his party and if he came out openly in support (ironic, I know...) he would likely be spilled out of office.

Fuck politics.

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