A Karl Marx for rich people? Funny how if you extrapolate contrary ideas they converge.

And @newtboy I agree with John Stewart and many others such as Karl Marx and people who know what they are talking about. We are consumerists, we fall for the bullshit TV ads, otherwise they would not be a billion dollar industry. We place our desktops and laptops and IPhones well above other considerations. We, and I mean Americans in case you obviously did not know I was talking about my own peeps, are consumerists.

Marx noted the bourgeoisie use these kind of trappings to placate the masses. He noted that for a reason that holds true even to this day.

The State will tighten the leash when this gets too popular.

The Aristotle avatar still has to be programmed. Who will do so, Karl Marx or Ayn Rand?

PS The economics theory of Karl Marx is about the only theory of macro-economics still standing. We may all not like the communist ideas that came from it, but his thoughts on capitalism so far have turned out to be spot on.

@dag @Fletch @LarsaruS

I think you're all forgetting that Hitler was a master of propaganda, and those statements affirming Christianity were just that. Hitler used a facade of piousness to cement his power with a predominantly Christian populace. Feel free to disagree, but then you have to deal with statements which he made to party loyalists, like these:

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

Night of July 11-12th 1941

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

October 10th 1941

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

19th October, 1941, night

Doesn't seem like such a warrior for christ now, does he? The cult of personality that fletch is talking about just makes my point. When man tries to get rid of God, he just replaces God with himself. Human beings have the natural desire to worship, whether it is something like money, or power, or celebrity, or themselves, everyone who doesn't know the true God has at least one idol in their life they pay homage too.

To say there is no connection between atheism and communism is absurd. Atheism was at the roots of it, and that according to the communists themselves:

"Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism"

"Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism"

Lenin

“With disdain I will throw my gauntlet full in the fact of the world and see the collapse of this pygmy giant. Then will I wander god-like and victorious through the ruins of the world. And giving my words an active force, I will feel equal to the Creator.”

Karl Marx

“The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion”

Karl Marx

So you see there is a connection between atheism and the atheistic regimes that committed uncounted atrocities. Fletch, you're even denial about the definition of atheism, which is the denial of any deity according to the dictionary. A famous quote says that "without God everything is permissable". And that is the logical connection, that a man unrestrained by any thought of ultimate accountability can justify any kind of moral action to himself. Consider this quote from Joel Marks, the professor of philosophy at the University of New Haven

“This philosopher has been laboring under an unexamined assumption, namely that there is such a thing as right and wrong. I now believe there isn’t…The long and short of it is that I became convinced that atheism implies amorality; and since I am an atheist, I must therefore embrace amorality…I experienced my shocking epiphany that religious fundamentalists are correct; without God there is no morality. But they are incorrect, I still believe, about there being a God. Hence, I believe, there is no morality.

Even though words like “sinful” and “evil” come naturally to the tongue as say a description of child molesting. They do not describe any actual properties of anything. There are no literal sins in the world because there is no literal God…nothing is literally right or wrong because there is no Morality"

Please note, I am not saying atheists cannot be moral; I am simply saying that an amoral viewpoint can be a causal factor in committing atrocities, just as much as any zealout. Psychopaths suppress what they know is right and wrong, and dictators ordain it.

It goes back to my original point. It is human nature that is the problem, the corruption of which I attribute to sin. A moral person will be moral in every circumstance, whereas an immoral person will be immoral in every circumstance. You cannot chop it up to specific beliefs of methodologies..they only diagnose the symptom and not the cause.

I get your point, I'm just saying that America has this irrational antipathy towards the name Marx, the label Marxism, and socialism and the like. All people know of it is the evil caricature and the demagoguery, and nothing about the real ideas behind it, thanks to the way it's been erased from our culture through 1984-style propaganda and demonization.

The Fight Club/Marx connection only really clicked for me when I watched this clip, and I wanted to try to use that realization as an opportunity to say "here, buried in your fondness for Fight Club is what Marxism is really about" in an effort to deprogram my fellow countrymen...

Or instead we can just focus on how wrong it was for me to dare try to label people, even as a rhetorical gambit to start a deeper conversation.

>> ^criticalthud:

Yes, I guess my point is, while i agree with most of what someone named jesus christ supposedly said, calling me a "Christian" wouldn't be terribly accurate, and would have a tendency to associate me with something more than just ideas.
and Karl Marx wasn't the first, present, or last person to think rationally.
perhaps Marx should sue for copyright infringement. ?

Yes, I guess my point is, while i agree with most of what someone named jesus christ supposedly said, calling me a "Christian" wouldn't be terribly accurate, and would have a tendency to associate me with something more than just ideas.

and Karl Marx wasn't the first, present, or last person to think rationally.

perhaps Marx should sue for copyright infringement. ?



>> ^NetRunner:

The main premise of the movie was the alienation inherent in capitalist societies.
The quote isn't "we are not our labels", it's:

You are not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fucking khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.

That's Marxism in a nutshell.
I'm always confused by the people who worry about "labels." They seem to think that if any label applies to them accurately, it's something bad. Well, being smart, kind, human, attractive, etc. are all labels too. For that matter, every aspect of who you are that could be conveyed in spoken or written language is by definition a label.
But fair enough, I'm mostly just trying to be provocative. People demonize "Marxism" in America so much it's silly. Nobody even knows what it is, because it's a taboo topic. Technically you aren't a "Marxist" unless you buy into the Marxian alternatives to capitalism (I don't), but it leaves you with some understanding that Karl Marx wasn't the anti-Christ, either.
After all, the philosophy of Tyler Durden is almost entirely based on Marxist critiques of capitalist society, and a lotta people dig Tyler Durden.
>> ^criticalthud:
So if we agree with a main premise of the movie that "we are not our labels" then we are necessarily labeled marxists?

The main premise of the movie was the alienation inherent in capitalist societies.

The quote isn't "we are not our labels", it's:

You are not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fucking khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.

That's Marxism in a nutshell.

I'm always confused by the people who worry about "labels." They seem to think that if any label applies to them accurately, it's something bad. Well, being smart, kind, human, attractive, etc. are all labels too. For that matter, every aspect of who you are that could be conveyed in spoken or written language is by definition a label.

But fair enough, I'm mostly just trying to be provocative. People demonize "Marxism" in America so much it's silly. Nobody even knows what it is, because it's a taboo topic. Technically you aren't a "Marxist" unless you buy into the Marxian alternatives to capitalism (I don't), but it leaves you with some understanding that Karl Marx wasn't the anti-Christ, either.

After all, the philosophy of Tyler Durden is almost entirely based on Marxist critiques of capitalist society, and a lotta people dig Tyler Durden.

>> ^criticalthud:

So if we agree with a main premise of the movie that "we are not our labels" then we are necessarily labeled marxists?

>> ^NetRunner:

Anyone who likes the philosophy of Fight Club is a Marxist.
No, really. I'm not kidding.
If you think Karl Marx and all his associated works were some sort of Satanic verse, perhaps your affinity for Fight Club should make you rethink that assessment, because it's essentially one and the same.


So if we agree with a main premise of the movie that "we are not our labels" then we are necessarily labeled marxists?

Anyone who likes the philosophy of Fight Club is a Marxist.

No, really. I'm not kidding.

If you think Karl Marx and all his associated works were some sort of Satanic verse, perhaps your affinity for Fight Club should make you rethink that assessment, because it's essentially one and the same.

>> ^quantumushroom:

You forgot to first thank dystopianfuturetoday for associating personal responsibility with libertarianism.
As for my reminder, enjoy the gift. Next week's discussion is Puppies: Cute Distraction or Karl Marx's Foot Soldiers?
>> ^kymbos:
Thanks, QM, for reminding us that this is really about big government and, um, socialism.
Hippies.



Whenever you demonstrate that you're able to not take yourself seriously, it's like... A breath of fresh air. Inbetween choking sessions. Fap fap.

You forgot to first thank dystopianfuturetoday for associating personal responsibility with libertarianism.

As for my reminder, enjoy the gift. Next week's discussion is Puppies: Cute Distraction or Karl Marx's Foot Soldiers?

>> ^kymbos:

Thanks, QM, for reminding us that this is really about big government and, um, socialism.
Hippies.

>> ^artician:

>> ^quantumushroom:
taxocrats are hoping Paul will get the nomination (he won't) so the marxist could run easy, deceptive ads about what a kook Paul is.
I'd vote for Kook Paul over the marxist.

Have your read Marx? I just want to know if you understand what that means, or if you're just talking out of your ass.


QM thinks Karl Marx was the one who honked a horn instead of talking.

Noted YOUNG historian? Was that a slam?
Love the part about how capitalism is morally right because its chief parts are wholesome and good, and compatible with god's laws and the teachings of the bible.

Karl Marx and his silly prediction about concentrated wealth at the top. What a mad man.

So you are saying Hitler contradicts himself constantly in his own book (if that's where your quotes came from, since most of them only site page numbers and not the source) much like the Bible? Sorry not buying it.

>> ^shinyblurry:

That's what we call propaganda. This is what Hitler really thought:
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

21st October, 1941, midday:
Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
27th February, 1942, midday:
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
Hitler on propaganda:
"To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result". (Main Kampf, Vol 1, Ch 6 and Ch 12)


>> ^Duckman33:
We can't explain how the tides work? You can't be serious.
Here Hitler uses the Bible and his Christianity in order to attack the Jews and uphold his anti-Semitism:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is quite obvious here that Hitler is referring to destructing the Judaism alters on which Christianity was founded.)
"The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (The idea of the devil and the Jew came out of medieval anti-Jewish beliefs based on interpretations from the Bible. Martin Luther, and teachers after him, continued this “tradition” up until the 20th century.)
"With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks in wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus stealing her from her people." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is common in war for one race to rape another so that they can “defile” the race and assimilate their own. Hitler speaks about this very tactic here.)
“The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present- day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation.”–Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
I can post more if you're still not convinced.
>> ^shinyblurry:
Well, we can't explain that.
The reply:
Bennett is completely correct. It’s an important conceptual point, and we blew it.
As far as the Holocaust goes, I wasn't originally intending to pin it on anyone, but since the topic has surfaced, Hitler may have claimed in his propaganda to be Christian, but his statements to the nazi party tells a much different story:
27th February, 1942, midday
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)
Doesn't sound like a Christian to me..
>> ^Duckman33:
>> ^shinyblurry:
Although there is no proof that the sun will rise tomorrow, you accept it on faith that it will.
IE, the holocaust.