If you act like a dodo, you deserve extinction.

Unfortunately, the biggest opponents to the bailouts are the Senators from Alabama, and its no coincidence that many foreign automakers have a presence there.

While I have nothing but sympathy for the auto workers - its not their fault they have idiots and assholes for employers - I think that America would be a lot better off if the Big 3 automakers face up to the fact that they've driven their companies into the ground.

We deserve better. We have the technology for better, more fuel-efficient cars. They've sat on it for years, and gave us a Hummer Truck instead. Fuck that noise. If they want a bailout, the oil companies have had record profits for the last few years. Let them bail out the auto makers.

Refutations posted on ThinkProgress:

"Unions do not deserve the blame placed on them by the right wing. In fact, unions have repeatedly made concessions to auto executives over recent years. Contrary to Kyl’s claim, new auto employees earn $25.65 an hour.

Big Three automaker CEOs and executives based their business model on a future of cheap oil, fighting fuel efficiency standards despite warnings against such a strategy. Detroit manufactured, as Tom Friedman pointed out, oversized gas-guzzling SUVs that reduced their competitive edge.

Financial firms AIG, Merrill Lynch, and Bear Stearns did not have unionized workers but still suffered economic collapses. Frozen credit markets and a spiraling recession were major contributors to Detroit’s current state. Today, the Center for American Progress urged Congress “to support legislation to grant a $25 billion bridge loan to the U.S. auto companies to ensure that they avoid bankruptcy” provided the automakers provide health and retirement security and invest in clean technology."

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/11/17/unions-auto-bailout/

Great catch, blankfist.

I've owned a Toyota, a Ford and a Honda in my lifetime. Guess which of the 3 needed repair on a monthly basis. The Toyota truck lasted me 10 years, was stolen twice and ran great until the day it was gutted by thieves. The big 3 need to take a lesson from Japan, and begin to produce reliable, inexpensive, easy to repair, fuel efficient vehicles.

>> ^campionidelmondo:
Oh guys, please get your heads out of your asses. I know those lil electric cars look promising, but they can only be part of a solution when used in connection with clean energy. Right now, these electric cars won't solve anything, because the additional energy that would be needed to "fuel" these things would have to be generated from coal and nuclear power plants.

Maybe so, but power plant emissions are easier to manage than those of millions of cars, especially old cars. Remember that the first cars were electric, but that petrol won in the end because of the convenience factor as there was no national electric grid yet. In pre-war days, fuel efficiency was low and roads sparse. People used mass transit to go from city to city, or even from place to place in a big city. In fact, subways predate the automobile and are still run by electricity to this day.

But this is primarily a North American problem/misconception, that anything that doesn't let you go in the remotest of places the instant you think of going there is "not good". Let's quote Wikipedia: "Some cities have built urban rail transit systems that are so comprehensive and efficient that the majority of city residents use it as their primary means of transport. This is common in many of the largest cities in Europe, such as Berlin, Paris, London, Madrid and Moscow, many large cities in Asia, such as Hong Kong, Osaka, Seoul, Taipei, and Tokyo; in North America the only city matching these is New York.[52]" And so the conundrum: if you're working in a big city where mass transit is useful and ubiquitous, do you really need a car to commute? No. If you're not working in such a city, do you need a car? Potentially yes. Then, would you need a car that can go 500 miles in a day to commute? Not useless you're crazy. And if you really need to go from Los Angeles to New York in your car (because you're mentally ill or on a road trip), why don't you take an electric car and take your time? Driving too many hours in the same day only increases the risk of accidents. And if you don't have the time to take your time, what the hell are you wasting time driving for?

As I went to such effort to write this on a dupe, I'll repost it here instead:

The thoughts of the car:

Grumble grumble, my idiot owner doesn't notice me anymore. He just takes me for granted. He used to be so considerate and kind, but now I'm beginning to suspect he fancies a younger, more fuel-efficient car. Just look at this rust on my bumper; in the old days he would have it fixed in no time, but now it seems like he just doesn't care.

Hey, what's he doing? I thought he was pulling in here to feed me some sweet petrol, but now he's filling a jerry can instead! And he's trying to hide what he's doing with his body. He's probably taking it to his other car. And he's going to use MY trunk to do it! Oh, the humiliation!

That's it: I'm leaving him! I can see the highway up front, and he seems to be very preoccupied. Maybe I can sneak quietly away. Just a quiet little nudge now...

Hnnnngh!

Alright, he didn't notice me! Just as usual... Jerk. Easy now, not too fast. Hey what's this? I didn't see this ledge from back there! Oh well, I am a terrain vehicle by heart, I can do this! 1, 2, 3, GERONIMOOOOOO!

Oops, it was a larger jump than I anticipated. But he can't see me now, maybe I'll be able to hide in the grass until he's gone. But... What are all these other people doing? No, stop, you're blowing my cover! Don't tell him I'm here!

Shit, shit, shit, shit! He has seen me! Noooooooo! Go away! I DON'T WANT TO GO BACK! I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

The thoughts of the car:

Grumble grumble, my idiot owner doesn't notice me anymore. He just takes me for granted. He used to be so considerate and kind, but now I'm beginning to suspect he fancies a younger, more fuel-efficient car. Just look at this rust on my bumper; in the old days he would have it fixed in no time, but now it seems like he just doesn't care.

Hey, what's he doing? I thought he was pulling in here to feed me some sweet petrol, but now he's filling a jerry can instead! And he's trying to hide what he's doing with his body. He's probably taking it to his other car. And he's going to use MY trunk to do it! Oh, the humiliation!

That's it: I'm leaving him! I can see the highway up front, and he seems to be very preoccupied. Maybe I can sneak quietly away. Just a quiet little nudge now...

Hnnnngh!

Alright, he didn't notice me! Just as usual... Jerk. Easy now, not too fast. Hey what's this? I didn't see this ledge from back there! Oh well, I am a terrain vehicle by heart, I can do this! 1, 2, 3, GERONIMOOOOOO!

Oops, it was a larger jump than I anticipated. But he can't see me now, maybe I'll be able to hide in the grass until he's gone. But... What are all these other people doing? No, stop, you're blowing my cover! Don't tell him I'm here!

Shit, shit, shit, shit! He has seen me! Noooooooo! Go away! I DON'T WANT TO GO BACK! I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Energy crisis? What energy crisis? ...prices are up, in part, because worldwide demand (supply) is up. What are people basing their entitlement to low energy prices on? Paying $1 a gallon six years ago has absolutely no bearing on current market conditions.

The government should have no role in resolving the "energy crisis"...this "crisis" can only be addressed by the free market. If you don't like our dependence on oil, invest in wind, solar, geothermal, or nuclear--or start your own company. If you don't like paying $4.00 a gallon, buy a car with better fuel efficiency or inflate your tires (ha). If you can't afford a more efficient/appropriately sized car, buy a motorcycle or scooter. If you can't afford your own vehicle, take the bus. If theres no bus, ride a bicycle. If your work is too far, get a second job so you can pay for the gas. If you can't find a second job adjust your finances...

If you don't understand this concept, read a book on economics.
"Economics in One Lesson"
http://www.google.com/search?q=economics+in+one+lesson

This has to be a lot more fuel efficient as well. When I used a GPS logger to quantify my drive to work, was amazed at the spikes and speed and amount of time sitting in lights.. that just kills your mileage. Going slow through town is much more efficient, and less stressful, than a series of traffic lights.

The last second is awesome.

Car is very fuel efficient!

>> ^dgandhi:
>> ^Payback:
Milk is cheaper.
Okay, this is the crux of the problem.
WHY do people seem to think a renewable product, like milk, which can be produced as long as we can manage to keep cows alive and breeding, should be more expensive than petrol, which is not only a finite resource, but must be drilled out of the ground and processed heavily?
As peak oil comes and goes petrol will pass $20/gal, and then it will, poorly, and at much added cost, be replaces by something which is cheaper. Markets fix things, as late as possible, and at the greatest possible expense, but they do find solutions to problems of cost.
This will not go away, get yourself a job nearby and a fuel efficient car.


What I find baffling is when I find water that's MORE EXPENSIVE than oil.

>> ^dgandhi:
>> ^Payback:
Milk is cheaper.
Okay, this is the crux of the problem.
WHY do people seem to think a renewable product, like milk, which can be produced as long as we can manage to keep cows alive and breeding, should be more expensive than petrol, which is not only a finite resource, but must be drilled out of the ground and processed heavily?
As peak oil comes and goes petrol will pass $20/gal, and then it will, poorly, and at much added cost, be replaces by something which is cheaper. Markets fix things, as late as possible, and at the greatest possible expense, but they do find solutions to problems of cost.
This will not go away, get yourself a job nearby and a fuel efficient car.



As the cost of one has the other as a cost of production, yes, it should be more expensive, and it will be.

>> ^Payback:
Milk is cheaper.

Okay, this is the crux of the problem.

WHY do people seem to think a renewable product, like milk, which can be produced as long as we can manage to keep cows alive and breeding, should be more expensive than petrol, which is not only a finite resource, but must be drilled out of the ground and processed heavily?

As peak oil comes and goes petrol will pass $20/gal, and then it will, poorly, and at much added cost, be replaces by something which is cheaper. Markets fix things, as late as possible, and at the greatest possible expense, but they do find solutions to problems of cost.

This will not go away, get yourself a job nearby and a fuel efficient car.

Hmm...maybe someone with better expertise can help me, but will alternative fuel ever be really sufficient? As far as I can tell they are certainly viable and great alternatives, but can they be *mass produced* and will people around the world really adopt it?

However, investing in reducing bottlenecks and fuel-efficient machines certainly makes sense.

my problem with them is the same, and I usually hate the digression that snowball's by episode's end-BUT...in the case of environmental issues, most measures imposed on the populous, i.e. fuel-efficiency, recycling, and the goddamn personal missions of passion most environmentalists engage in, always address symptomology. instead of the real problem, the planet's current paradigm of use-consume-spend-and try to work towards a better future for the planet with your personal habits.....

BULLSHIT-because out of 5 seconds of this message, the other 23hrs 59 minutes and 55 seconds of the day are used to program the world to do th opposite....these little band-aid sticking hippy fucks, are as ineffectual as a finger in a dike......the planet, without our input, should humans disappear tomorrow, and the solar cycle's ebb and flow warm cool or otherwise dance as he will about the planet,(meaning global warming as it is being fed to monkeys is a lie) will go back to doing what it does best.....

oh, mind you, there will be more trash strewn about after this empire ceases to be, but the place will green the fuck up again quick-And why would you consider it a pity, should a few generations inherit the funky trash planet for a while??

Think in hundreds of years and know, that humans may be simply a passing fucking fancy-These scenarios of 2364 and everyone floating around in some progressive accumulation of knowledge extant's wondrous progress, is horseshit-My bet, is humans won't make it to 2050 if we don't do something t alter the paradigm.....you can't change this shit, you can simply witness history and be happy to be sucking air.......

An un-biased view from an info-blog, continually edited by its users.....


Polluting less, is not accomplished by recycling, it's done by not buying the aluminum-emissions by humans are reduced when they stop spouting compilations of minutiae and using the most effective tools they have against the machine.....their will.

But we are well into the spiral, so sit back and relax, vote for next iteration of the same program, make a compost heap from a wiki article, and take a fuel-efficient bus to cattle country....

Symbol addiction, is a disease.

Qruel, my take on folks who use people's symbol addiction in order to shift responsibility, stroke an ego, or explain their own incarnation is that they are confused as to nature of cause and effect and their own process-when someone gets to a place where they understand themselves, there's no reason to become frustrated that the bulk of the other meatbots are not there yet..... that may be the juxtaposition you we're getting at-hell, everything I know is wrong daily-same for you??

When you see church and state issues, think of the Bolsheveki, and the tactics that are time-honored.....fuck, you fancy yerself intelligent, go read a checklist of time-honored fascist tactics, and tell me getting rid of a group of people of like mind is anything new...we're simply letting it happen again-