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Counter Protest Attacked In Charlottesville, Va

bcglorf says...

I would like to think "punch a nazi" isn't especially extreme though, certainly not extremely leftist. You can certainly pickup a large number of right leaning people who are on board for punching nazis.

It's other things from the left that I fear are needlessly driving away right leaning folks.

Calls for halting parts of the economy to save the world from catastrophic climate change, be that banning coal or oil or to a lesser extent carbon taxes. Instead taking the positive approach of promoting non-fossil fuels on the power grid and electric vehicles accomplishes more and doesn't directly attack the industry and livelihood of a large part of middle America.

Anything that amounts to calling it immoral to define a man as a human with a penis and a woman as a human with a vagina. How many voters do you really need to alienate over semantics?

Anything that amounts to demanding everybody accept and encourage your life choices, sexual or otherwise. The notion of judging one another based on our decisions and behaviours is a big deal to right leaning people, telling them that certain behaviours or choices are not only unquestionable but must be approved of is again pointless and needlessly drives away voters. There is common ground in love and let live, pushing beyond that to get back at the old guard is driving away potential allies at a time that can't be afforded.

Labelling any criticism of Islam as Islamaphobia. For that matter, use of pretty much all the morality-a-phobias should be done away with. Go back to demanding people live and let live without the requirement everyone embrace or endorse other people's decisions without being shouted down as immoral.

BLM

Refusing to allow rational discussion of statistically factual trends or differences between populations because it's racist or sexist. Those differences are a part of our reality and just demanding everyone put their heads in the sand drives many people unwilling to do so away. It also is damaging because many problems in society that we need to fix are informed by that data.

greatgooglymoogly said:

Well put. Spreading the "punch a Nazi" message is counterproductive. You don't need to encourage more people to hate Nazis. You need to stop making others feel physically threatened. All that will accomplish is provoke sympathy for those being attacked, and grow their numbers.

Counter Protest Attacked In Charlottesville, Va

JustSaying says...

For the record:
Yes, I upvoted a video of a car crashing into people. However, this was not the reason for it. I do not nor have I ever condoned or endorsed such behaviour. Running a car over people is wrong.
I can not speak for the other upvoters.

Straight is the new gay - Steve Hughes

ChaosEngine says...

The difference between smoking and say, drinking alcohol or eating unhealthy food, is that I can drink alcohol or eat cheeseburgers all day and I'm really harming no-one but myself.

"Ah, but people drive drunk and get in fights and do stupid things and cause all sorts of trouble"
Agreed, and we have laws against all those things. If you get drunk and kill someone, off to jail with you.

"Yes, but fat people are an enormous cost on the health system"
This is hard to discuss without going into the whole healthcare mess in the US, but as a broad point, it's nigh impossible to legislate against unhealthy behaviours to ones self. Where do you stop? Eating meat? Salt? Not exercising enough? What about people with disabilities?

But smoking? That directly and provably harms OTHER people in the same environment as you and they really have no recourse. If I walked into a public square swinging a sword around, it's not reasonable to say other people should just get out of my way.

So ultimately, as much as I dislike government legislating what you do to yourself (read my post history, I'm very pro-drug), I am ok with legislating that you cannot do something that harms other people in a public place.

Hell, I'd go further. I'm ok with government legislating that you can't smoke in your own home if, for example, you have kids. They didn't ask to live there, and it was your decision to have them, so sorry, no smoking for you.

And yeah, I'd say the same about alcohol. If your drinking is harming your children, then maybe you shouldn't have kids anymore.

Mordhaus said:

It all goes to how comfortable you are with the government legislating what you can and can't do. I used to smoke, nasty habit. I did it for at least 20 years, started when I was 14. I was a light smoker, usually less than 4 or so a day, but I did do it until I weaned myself off with nicotine gum and then quit that later.

Now, I wouldn't want to stay in a hotel or go to an establishment (bar, eatery, etc) 'alone' that allowed it in all areas. But in selected areas that I don't have to enter, I don't have a problem with it. I feel that way because I want people to be able to do what they want to their own body.

As far as employees being forced to be exposed to it, no one can force you to do anything in a job unless you are essentially a slave. You always have the option to look for work elsewhere. Bars could offer a pay differential or force patrons to pay an automatic tip percentage if they want service in a smoking area, giving incentive for people who don't care about serving smokers. Their body, their choice.

Woman freaks out after Father gets joint custody

newtboy says...

This is mom on her absolute BEST behaviour.
Does anyone think she behaves better when not in court? Does anyone think her family members don't physically inject themselves when not in court?
This seemed like a good reason for the judge to reverse his decision and give dad primary custody and mom supervised visitation, along with anger management classes, and tack on an order requiring uncle (or whoever the guy from the back is) to not be present.
Poor kid. This is far from the end of it's nightmare.

enoch (Member Profile)

radx says...

Ian Welsh reminds us of a quote by Mark Twain:

There were two ‘Reigns of Terror’, if we could but remember and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passions, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon a thousand persons, the other upon a hundred million; but our shudders are all for the horrors of the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty and heartbreak? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief terror that we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror – that unspeakable bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.

Biker cut off but lands safely... ish

Former CIA Dir. On Jared Kushner/Russia Secret Communication

newtboy says...

Only in your Trump addled mind.
It came from congressional hearings, not reporters.
This story has just begun.

You might note that none of the investigations Trump (and so you) call fake news have ended without finding evidence of improper behaviour with his people and the Russians during the transition.
Not one. That's because the only fake news is coming directly from the white house now, with 7 different, contradictory explanations for their actions every time they're caught, which is a few times a week. That's what happens when an idiot failure of a businessman doesn't understand that governing is different from owning a company that the board runs, or that public service isn't done in secret for your own financial gains.

bobknight33 said:

Yet another liberal Fake news story.

Again this story has failed.

Greg Gianforte, Trump and the First Amendment

newtboy says...

Yeah, Fox is the bastion of fairness and balance.......and the sky is a lovely shade of green. Edit: Fox can't even stop claiming Clinton/DNC murdered a man over leaks the Russians made, the best they can do is pause while indicating the story is still true but out of respect/bowing to pressure they'll stop covering it for now.

He originally claimed he never touched the man, even though he knew the Fox reporter saw him. The only sane conclusion is he expected them to go along with his lie because he's Republican.

That's not what I read, both before and after the attack. The point is, this is not acceptable behaviour, and that made little difference because 1)early voting before it happened and 2) Republicans will vote for any frothing idiot if they just put an (R) in front of their name.

Nope, not kidding. They elected Trump, a womanizing, racist, classist, classless, serial philanderer, proud liar and deceiver, falsely pious, groper, repeatedly failed businessman that never reads the contracts he signs who is the worst kind of partisan con man. 8 years of hating Obama screwed with your heads. You're so incredibly deluded you still think Trump is winning big time. You probably repeated the bullshit about child slave pizza, you buy into every other insane conspiracy theory Alex Jones dreams up. Who promotes the worst again? You know, like baseless accusations of murder and child slavery being repeated for months on national tv? Like frothing rage over Benghazzi, but total head in the sand over Trump's imploding administration and his Russian ties involving every person in his administration it seems, all angrily lying about it until recordings surface then going silent? Yeah, using an unsecured email server, that's much worse than just telling our enemies state and intelligence secrets and leaking far more while creating enemies of the press and intelligence community (both ours and our allies). Worse than setting up a secret communication channel through the Russian consulate because you don't trust American intelligence agencies but do trust Russia? Much worse. Lock her up...Lock her up....Lock her up.

Democrats represented more Americans than Republicans if you go by votes...so if one party represents Americans and the other doesn't, you have it backwards. (Truth be told neither represent their constituents, but democrats come closer).

bobknight33 said:

""Fox reporters would lie with him, but they didn't"". ??? On what grounds do you state this ??? Fox is more fair and balanced than CNC/MSNBC and others.


HE was not expected to wing by a land slide It was to be close, which it was.


" Republicans have totally sacrificed their morality " Are you kidding. Democrats are the party of Debauchery. Democrats are a joke. Republicans have slipped to a new low but democrats promote the worst of society.

Democrats are American but they represent the blinded sheep degenerated by its politicians.

Bill Maher - Elizabeth Warren Interview

ChaosEngine says...

The thing is it clearly DID bother her and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Rather than saying that was "was softball compared to what she'd face if she runs in 2020", we should expect a higher level of political discourse.

Trump can't be allowed to become the norm, and sinking to his level (even if only to mock him) just further entrenches that behaviour.

Otherwise, we really WILL end up with idiocracy.

MilkmanDan said:

Maher arguably gave her a chance to own it and show that it didn't bother her, but she didn't take it.

My take is that Warren was expecting softball. Maher got a bit impatient with her going full tilt with politician-speak and threw a changeup. By the end of the interview he seems to regret having prodded her a bit. But the thing is, that interview was softball compared to what she'd face if she runs in 2020. Then, interviewers won't throw changeups, it'll be chin-music fastballs instead.

Do you think this practice belongs to another age?

bcglorf says...

I think Milkman's angle on things is relevant in a different way.

We don't need to form our morality to coddle, consider or otherwise care in the least about cultural or other reasons for doing stuff. However, when it comes to affecting change in a groups behaviour, those cultural traditions are a factor, whether we agree with it or like it or not. Bull fighting is really pretty small in that picture. Women's rights in a country like Saudi Arabia is a much bigger deal.

When we want to help out those we believe are negatively affected by what we see as immoral, we can't ignore the weight of cultural momentum holding it in place. We can easily say women should have equality and that it is morally the right position. When it comes to lobbying for changes or protections for human rights in those places though, identifying how to be least disruptive to existing culture is helpful. No, it's not our job to adapt their culture for them. However, if we want to see the change, we might have put in some of that work anyway when those we see as behaving immorally show no interest in doing it.

newtboy said:

Can we please apply this logic to everything?
'We've been doing it that way for generations' is hardly an excuse for any inexcusable behavior or for ignoring the results of your behavior.

Racist is what you do, not what you say.

ChaosEngine says...

That is not a fact until you have EVIDENCE for it, until then, it's a claim.

In general, the requirement for evidence is inversely proportional to the probability of the claim. If I say the sky is blue, most people don't need evidence of that because it fits with their world experience. If I say I'm the second coming of Christ, I damn well better start turning water into wine to prove my case.

Your CLAIM is that no white male police officer has ever been convicted of murdering a black male in America's entire history. I'm willing to accept that it's possible, but I'm not willing to take it as a fact until you can provide a reputable source.

And no, it's nothing like big foot or the loch ness monster. Criminal convictions are a matter of public record.

As it happens, I can't find any records of a police officer being convicted of murder (although there are several for manslaughter).

Doesn't make your childish behaviour any better though.

C-note said:

Fact. a thing that is indisputably the case.
Fact. No white male police officer has ever been convicted of murdering a black male in america's entire history.

Claim. state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
Claim. The previous fact is not true.

Japanese Pool Player Gives Great Interview

glyphs says...

"Japanese pool players gives great interview"!?!?!?

More like "idiot Englishman imposes a bloody terrible interview to fellow human being, perpetuating bigotry and lack of cultural awareness as acceptable behaviour for a professional communicating adult.

I'm sorry for yelling.

Meryl Streep on the Press, the Arts & Empathy. Vivisection.

bcglorf says...

Well said, as always.

Every time I get pulled down the rabbit warren of despairing at the insanity of both the entrenched left and the entrenched right it's tough to pull back out and find a response other than attacking the malicious wrong mindedness. What I get pulled back to though, and your post reminded me of again is that the better response is to unite the middle. The response to birthers looking to build walls and ban muslims isn't to unite the left as a counter, but we should instead be uniting those of us in the middle. The response to safe spaces, rejection of dissenting opinions as 'triggering', and calls for vigilante rape-culture when faced with due process should not be met with the uniting the right as a counter, but uniting the middle.

If we unite the middle, we can tell both the extreme right and the extreme left exactly how disgusting the silent majority find their behaviours.

enoch said:

@bobknight33
ya know bob,at some point you are going to look back at these comments,or someone is inevitably going to bring them to your attention in the future,and you are going to be forced to eat a slice of humble pie.

i am not disagreeing with you in regards to corporate media bias,and that some people consume only those outlets that appeal to their own prejudices and biases.

as this election has made abundantly clear:both those who identify as democrat and republican are guilty of confirmation bias,and had fallen into the trap of their own personal echo chambers.

so many supposed "news" outlets were aught red-handed pandering,obfuscating and sometimes promoting outright propaganda.

the latest outlet to get caught in this fuckery is the washington post,and i suspect there will be many many more.

my point is simply this.
propaganda works,and it is an effective tool to control attitudes and opinions,they do not even have to "win" the argument,they just have to make a person reconsider their position by postulating possibilities,make one go "well,maybe..that could happen"...and they win.

so you are right in regards to fake news that appeals to the more "liberal minded" but do not think for a second that there are also corporate "news" outlets that appeal to the more "conservative minded".

we all,each and every one of us,are susceptible to this tactic.we all can be manipulated by appeals to emotions,our sense of justice and fairness,and of course..our prejudices.

the only way to combat this tactic is by remaining vigilant and do our due diligence.this starts by listening to people we may disagree.by fact checking and discussing with one another to test the veracity of the claims by certain outlets.

speaking only for myself i dumped corporate media years ago.

it is still an imperfect system i use,and i have posted fallacious content (not intentionally) and been called out for it's bullshit.

i didn't like being called out,and felt shame for my laziness and the fact i posted because it adhered to my own preconceptions,but i was the better for it.

so be careful when you make declarations of certitude by using corporate media outlets as a source,because more often than not,that information has been manipulated to appeal to a certain mindset and attitude.

liberals have known for decades the FOX news is a corporate media propaganda machine,but they have also been just as much a victim of the very same tactics by such outlets as MSNBC and CNN.

american conservatives are not the problem,nor are american liberals.

it is the corporate media who is beholden to those who wield power and influence,and seek to manipulate the opinions of the american people in order to retain THEIR power and THEIR influence and therefore diminish the cohesive community of the american people.

ok..i really don;t know where i am going with this..i had a point somewhere.

basically stop using corporate media as your references bob,otherwise you are going to be pantsed in public,and that is an ickly feeling.

Yes We Can. Obama stories are shared. What a guy.

gorillaman says...

Don't hold your breath waiting for fascists to do good things. If the nigger prince were capable of moral human behaviour, he'd already have pardoned the hundreds of thousands of innocent people he kidnapped and falsely imprisoned for drug offences.

ChaosEngine said:

He's still got a week to pardon Snowden.

C'mon Obama... do it. If for no other reason than it will piss Trump off so much.

Husband doesn't speak to Wife for 23 Years

FlowersInHisHair says...

I'm revolted by the light-hearted way this story has been handled by this TV show and in the press, where I've seen it reported on the last few days. Sulking? I don't buy it. The husband's behaviour is bizarre and cruel and he doesn't change until he's called out on it. It's manipulative and abusive, not just to his wife, but to the whole family who've had to live with this hole in their family life for decades. It's not heartwarming or relatable, it's monstrous.



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