Oh Fareed, "If you don't believe me, listen to Pat Robertson again".

No thanks.

This idiocy is no more a reflection of mainstream practiced Islam than Pat Robertson's dumb views are a reflection of mainstream practiced Christianity.

Wrongheaded imo. This is GWB style 'with us or against us' rhetoric. Would you accept this argument if black people were the zombies? Or women? Or liberals? You don't even have to answer, because I know you'd say no. We have to share this world with people of faith. Some are cool. Some are assholes. I think judging them on the cool/asshole scale is a lot more productive than judging them on the faith/non-faith scale. Lumping them all together is assholish. I also find the guy on the left to be a ridiculous strawman. I don't know any atheists who think that way.

Beyond that, in horror culture, zombies are to be killed on site without question or remorse. I'm uncomfortable with the violent implications, fictional or no.

I know 4 extremely cool Christians in meatspace - thoughtful, loving, selfless, liberal Christians who are always looking out for others, rarely judgmental and never preachy. These are people I respect and admire at the highest level. They aren't Pat Robertson or Kirk Cameron or the stupid banana guy (can't remember his name). They aren't zombies. They are people that I love.

I went through a combative 'spite' period in regards to religion, and though I'm not ashamed of that period of my life, I am glad to be done with it.

Don had me spending my allowance on Mowtown and Stax 45's along with all the great rock n' Roll during the same time-Never got to see black folks showin' out before on television before the Soul Train started making regular stops-Where I lived it was usually on Sunday afternoon at about 4-5 pm, after Wide Woirld of Sports or right before another great Sunday favor4ite, The Lawrence Welk Show, which showcased some of the hottest white-bread talent ever to thrill the perennial, un-hip.

See, geeks in the old days children, listened to some really square shit. Don Ho.
Burl Ives or some Frankie Laine or Montavanni. Oh, and allll of someones parents had at least three soundtracks from some popular musical from the 60's in their musty collection, along with one or two lame folk records recorded BY white folks(coked-up) in America, for the same (Joe and Mary blow), kind of like you youngsters all do now , but with a much more socially acceptable veneer of status-quo wholesomeness(terminal squareness)-

Oh and Don Cornelius? What most folks never dreamed was how, before there was internet porn or white folks wandering into black churches for the music and hip-shakin', you were able to land the longest-running syndicated (35 seasons, 2nd only to Pat Robertson's, The 700 Club) weekly television show where a LARGE MAJORITY of the viewing audience were white males between the ages of 12 and 67, tuning in every week after getting pumped-up on testosterone to watch some fine-ass, booty-groovin', soul sisters command the nation with gyration.

Sad to know you couldn't take the pain any more Don-Watched your last broadcast back in the mid nineties. Amazing brother indeed. Almost never missed a show for ten years straight.

I am thought that perhaps he just didn't understand it as a Thanksgiving/Christmas tradition as well, but like you it seemed more like he had no idea what Mac and Cheese was... This goes right up there with the Paris Hilton's Wal-Mart comment... I mean the local grocery store has something like 5 shelves of the stuff... plus the restaurants and everywhere else...
What was odder is the black lady on set with him going "Yeah! It is a black thing!" Then says how she has it once or twice a year... we have it perhaps that much a month... and we're white...


>> ^ReverendTed:

At this point, I honestly didn't think there was anything Pat Robertson could say that would surprise me.
How does anyone reach his age without having experienced macaroni and cheese? It's a staple. Every buffet has it. Nearly every restaurant has it as a side item. Does Pat not ever eat out?
I wondered if perhaps he just didn't understand it as a Thanksgiving\Christmas tradition, but it sounds like he's got no idea.

At this point, I honestly didn't think there was anything Pat Robertson could say that would surprise me.
How does anyone reach his age without having experienced macaroni and cheese? It's a staple. Every buffet has it. Nearly every restaurant has it as a side item. Does Pat not ever eat out?
I wondered if perhaps he just didn't understand it as a Thanksgiving\Christmas tradition, but it sounds like he's got no idea.

The gags are so funny and obvious, the audience knows when to laugh, so no need.>> ^Trancecoach:

how can the 700 Club not have a laugh-track??

remember i am a gnostic so i read the gospels...differently.
i also include ALL the gospels not just those conveniently canonized by the council of nicea.
which is the direction my comment was pointing at.

Ahh, yes, I remember. Before I became a Christian I had gnostic beliefs. I believed in the demiurge for instance, and considered the gospels found in the dead sea scrolls authoratative. However, after much research and some spiritual experience, I have changed my mind. I could bring up objections as to their dates, as many were written far after the fact in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, but my main objection is that I do not believe they were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

What gnosticism does is turn Christianity into a dualistic system, with matter being called evil and spirit being good. It recasts the Father as the "demiurge", a petty and evil tyrant who totally bungled the creation. It subtly shifts the blame for the fall from mankind to God. So now man is no longer to blame for sin, but is just a victim to the brute fact of being born in the material world that an evil demigod created. So naturally, rebellion against all his authority is justified.

Futher, the saving work of Christ is turned on its head. Rather than defeating death and sin on the cross, he came to defeat ignorance of the spiritual realities as teacher of secret knowledge (gnosis). Rather than being saved through substitutionary atonement and spiritual rebirth, we must save ourselves by climbing the ladder of spiritual truths and illuminating our "divine spark". All systems of morality and ethics are perceived as relative truths governing the material reality and irrelevent to the true salvation of gnosis.

So, if I could sum up: God is the devil, rebellion is good, man saves himself (enlightenment), death is a release, and do whatever you want. I think I've heard that somewhere, before..

This is in contrast to what Jesus said:

John 19:30

When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Meaning, the work is done. There is nothing more any human can do, or ever could do. He got us the victory, and God put everything under His feet:

Matthew 28:18

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

It is only through Him, and His finished work, that we are liberated

simply put:
the powerful institution known as the church (be it catholic or baptist) have co-opted and twisted the message to fit a narrative which empowers the institution and keeps them relevant.this translates into wealth and political power and influence.
this is the absolute antithesis of christs teachings.
christ held the key.he offered it openly and freely.
THIS disempowered those who desired control and was exactly the point.
those who held seats of power saw this threat clearly and if you cant beat em....co-opt them

While I agree the catholic church perverted the message for their own gain, I think your idea of what the message actually says is a far cry from what the disciples or the early church fathers knew it to say. The baptist church is very much in line with that message. John, for instance, wrote against gnostic teaching when he said:

1 John 4:3

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

He wrote this because of gnostic claims that Jesus was not united to a body but only appeared that way.

for centuries the catholic church has been the greatest offender but in the past 50 years other institutions have wrestled their way to prominent control and espouse a contradictory and perverted message in order to manipulate their own people in order to gain more influence and power.all in the name of god.

i counsel many,MANY a people who were former fundamentalist,catholics,methodists,lutheran who found themselves in a crisis of faith due to this very perversion.
lets remember that for centuries the bible was an incomplete text (still is imo)and was written in languages the common man could not read (hell,most people were illiterate at that time).it was the printing press and the translation into english (and many many other languages) that freed the common man to read the very thing his entire belief system was based on.
this is a good thing.

Yes, I agree, it is a very good thing that everyone is able to read the word of God; the catholic church definitely engineered that situation of massive ignorance when they banned all translations except the latin vulgate. I also agree that the massive apostacy in the church is leading many people to reject the church altogether. This is very sad and unfortunate, and many of us have much to answer for. It is written that in the last days, many would fall away and believe false doctrines, and because of the increase of sin, the love of many would grow cold.

I must ask you though, what are you teaching these people? Are you telling them there is no such thing as sin and they need to save themselves?

you have a unique starting point in understanding the bible.simply by the fact you were not indoctrinated as a child and can study,research and formulate your own understanding of biblical teachings based solely on your own studies.

This has been an advantage, in that I can better relate to the secular world than most Christians. Even more of an advantage was my spiritual journey of about 8 years before becoming a Christian, where I explored all of the various religions and belief systems.

i have witnessed over a fairly short amount of time an evolution in your comments and responses pertaining to faith and belief.
this is such a good thing to see for it tells me your ravenous curiosity has driven you to attempt to understand.
the path is long and never truly ends but at least you ask the questions and do not blindly follow.
i am interested in seeing where you are in a year...or two..or twenty.
because nothing saddens me more than to discuss religion with someone who is incurious and seeks to be told what to think or how to feel in regards to faith and belief.

I am not incurious, no. I have followed God without any doctrine at all, so it isn't a frightening prospect to consider things from many different angles. One of the reason I do so much witnessing to atheists is because their questions bring me to many different areas of inquiry, and serve to illuminate and enhance my understanding.

I understand the objections people have, because I've had them too. My experience, especially my spiritual experience, has confirmed to me the truth of the word of God, which is universally applicable and experiential in nature. The Holy Spirit guides into all truth, and through Christ, I lack nothing. So, God has answered my objections. This is the truth I recognize:

Proverbs 3:5

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

When you shift the basis of your reason from God to man, you have made yourself Lord over Him. If it only by trusting God to provide the answers that you can understand anything.

if christianity had more people like you and less people like pat robertson or ted haggard,the discussion would be so much more..interesting.
you seek to KNOW.you seek wisdom.that is a very very arduous path and can be a solitary one.
i encounter so many people who seem to conflate the ability to recite biblical chapter and verse as somehow translating to wisdom.
this is a falsehood and the epitome of lazy and is also the reason why they become enraged and will many times resort to the most intellectually dishonest trap of deeming the person who revealed their laziness as coming from the devil.

Christianity has many people like me, but too many who are half-hearted in their faith. What I am interested in is the truth, and not something that merely comforts me. I would rather die than live out a comfortable lie. All wisdom comes from God, it is something He gives freely. Whatever understanding I have is from Him, and not something I accomplished by myself. A lot of Christians are content with a superficial understanding of their faith, but this is mostly due to sin. They take what they want from the message and ignore the parts that command that they change their ways. This leads to much error and ignorance.

What I believe about the devil is that he is the father of all lies. I do not think that someone who believes a lie worships the devil, but I do believe that all those who sin are a slave to sin. There is a difference between worshipping the devil and being fooled by him. Some people do worship him knowingly, but most are simply following doctrines that he created to lead people away from the truth.

so i applaud the path you have chosen.
does this mean you will come to the same conclusions as i?
hehe..probably not.we will most likely still disagree but that does not mean i will not appreciate you as a human being nor dismiss your insights simply due to our disagreeing.

as always,
your brother.

Thanks bro. Neither would I throw out your observations based on our disagreement. I believe Jesus is the only way to know God, and I hope you will come to this conclusion as well, but in the meantime I am sure there is a lot of fruitful dialogue to be had. I have learned a few things from investigating various point you have brought up, and appreciate your insight. I respect your right to believe as you want, and I extend my hand to you as a fellow human being in the image of our Creator.

>> ^enoch

>> ^shinyblurry:

Yes, I agree people have used the message for personal gain..but your statement confuses me. Since you admit the gospel was the sincere account of the disciples who wrote it (it would have to be for them to martyr themselves over it), and they preached a resurrected, glorified Christ who is the Savior of the world, why don't you believe them?
>> ^enoch:
i think you misunderstood who i was refering to when i spoke of those who sought power perverted christs message.
the disciples didnt and nor did those early christians who suffered and died for their beliefs.
but there have been many who have used christs message to garner power,influence and to line their own pocket.
this can be traced back to only a few 100 yrs after christs death all the way to present day.
if you would like to call that a conspiracy theory,i guess thats your choice but i think the evidence is overwhelming.



remember i am a gnostic so i read the gospels...differently.
i also include ALL the gospels not just those conveniently canonized by the council of nicea.
which is the direction my comment was pointing at.
simply put:
the powerful institution known as the church (be it catholic or baptist) have co-opted and twisted the message to fit a narrative which empowers the institution and keeps them relevant.this translates into wealth and political power and influence.
this is the absolute antithesis of christs teachings.
christ held the key.he offered it openly and freely.
THIS disempowered those who desired control and was exactly the point.
those who held seats of power saw this threat clearly and if you cant beat em....co-opt them.

for centuries the catholic church has been the greatest offender but in the past 50 years other institutions have wrestled their way to prominent control and espouse a contradictory and perverted message in order to manipulate their own people in order to gain more influence and power.all in the name of god.

i counsel many,MANY a people who were former fundamentalist,catholics,methodists,lutheran who found themselves in a crisis of faith due to this very perversion.
lets remember that for centuries the bible was an incomplete text (still is imo)and was written in languages the common man could not read (hell,most people were illiterate at that time).it was the printing press and the translation into english (and many many other languages) that freed the common man to read the very thing his entire belief system was based on.
this is a good thing.

you have a unique starting point in understanding the bible.simply by the fact you were not indoctrinated as a child and can study,research and formulate your own understanding of biblical teachings based solely on your own studies.

i have witnessed over a fairly short amount of time an evolution in your comments and responses pertaining to faith and belief.
this is such a good thing to see for it tells me your ravenous curiosity has driven you to attempt to understand.
the path is long and never truly ends but at least you ask the questions and do not blindly follow.
i am interested in seeing where you are in a year...or two..or twenty.
because nothing saddens me more than to discuss religion with someone who is incurious and seeks to be told what to think or how to feel in regards to faith and belief.

if christianity had more people like you and less people like pat robertson or ted haggard,the discussion would be so much more..interesting.
you seek to KNOW.you seek wisdom.that is a very very arduous path and can be a solitary one.
i encounter so many people who seem to conflate the ability to recite biblical chapter and verse as somehow translating to wisdom.
this is a falsehood and the epitome of lazy and is also the reason why they become enraged and will many times resort to the most intellectually dishonest trap of deeming the person who revealed their laziness as coming from the devil.

so i applaud the path you have chosen.
does this mean you will come to the same conclusions as i?
hehe..probably not.we will most likely still disagree but that does not mean i will not appreciate you as a human being nor dismiss your insights simply due to our disagreeing.

as always,
your brother.

No need for "sarcasm" they would be angry because they're black and not from America: God's country>> ^TheFreak:

I'm sure Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell would be extrememly angry to see people representing themselves as Christians subverting their religion for personal wealth and power.

>> ^newtboy:

Didn't Pat just tell the retardicans to stop talking about what they believe, because it makes them look unelectably insane? He needs to take his own advice.


The difference is the Republican candidates have to appeal to everyone (eventually) whereas Pat's target audience is insane.

O RLY, Pat Robertson? Methinks The Pope believes otherwise.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iAhjVj2Uh-wzWQQx9YZrodvKmVkQ?docId=14b9f8e16b19419f8c06d0cea6971dec

http://www.zimguardian.com/?p=4872

Pat Robertson is fucking nuts.

>> ^Phreezdryd:

Pat's no dummy. He knows ya gotta keep the sheep's clothing on good and tight until it's too late.


Yeah, no one has ever accused PR of being stupid.


...or particularly religious for that matter.