I'm pretty sure that if the tables were turned and somehow Hillary ran as a Republican, the Democrats would have voted for Trump as well. We tend to overlook things like reason and sanity in the USA when it comes to people/teams/etc that we hate.

Plus Trump was selling a message that a lot of people bought into, that they were somehow going to go back to a time when factory and coal jobs were a thing for middle class union type people. People who didn't work in those fields knew it was bogus from the get go, but when you live in a shitty area and desperately want to scroll back progress so that you can get your guaranteed 30+ an hour job/lifetime pension without a college education, you tend to overlook small things like guys grabbing pussies.

You are right, in a sane country Hillary probably would have been elected. She also probably wouldn't have been eligible to run because she would have beaten out Obama in 2008. She didn't because people were so desperate for something, anything to change in our fucked up government that they went with Obama. Hell, I even voted for him the first time. But, we lost our sanity sometime around the period when elected an actor over a generally 'nice guy' kind of president. Said actor/governor then instituted the following amazing things:

* The War on Drugs - utter failure
* Reaganomics - depends on who you ask, but it pretty much fucked us for years to come.
* Wonderful changes and cuts to education - See previous. They are still trying to undo the fuckery that was done to education in the 80's.
* Increased military spending to astronomical levels - pretty much fucked anyone not working for defense contractors.
* Destabilized Nicaragua and pissed off Iran worse at us - yeah, that didn't work out for us.
* Largely ignored the AIDs epidemic - tragedy on multiple levels.
* Etc

That fucker is still viewed as one of the best presidents and Carter as one of the worst.

You know, and it gets into this whole issue of border security
You know, who's gonna say that the borders are secure?
We've got the House and the Senate debating this issue
And it's, it's really astonishing that in a country founded by immigrants
"Immigrant" has somehow become a bad word
So the debate rages on and we continue
And just like that it's over, we tend to our wounded, we count our dead
Black and white soldiers wonder alike if this really means freedom
Not yet
I got one job, two job, three when I need them
I got five roommates in this one studio, but I never really see them
And we all came America trying to get a lap dance from Lady Freedom
But now Lady Liberty is acting like Hilary Banks with a pre-nup
Man, I was brave, sailing on graves
Don't think I didn't notice those tombstones disguised as waves
I'm no dummy, here is something funny, you can be an immigrant without risking your lives
Or crossing these borders with thrifty supplies
All you got to do is see the world with new eyes
Immigrants, we get the job done
Look how far I come
Look how far I come
Look how far I come
We get the job done
Look how far I come
Look how far I come
Look how far I come
Immigrants, we get the job done
It's a hard line when you're an import
Baby boy, it's hard times
When you ain't sent for
Racists feed the belly of the beast
With they pitchforks, rich chores
Done by the people that get ignored
Ya se armó
Ya se despertaron
It's a whole awakening
La alarma ya sonó hace rato
Los que quieren buscan
Pero nos apodan como vagos
We are the same ones
Hustling on every level
Ten los datos
Walk a mile in our shoes
Abróchense los zapatos
I been scoping ya dudes, ya'll ain't been working like I do
I'll outwork you, it hurts you
You claim I'm stealing jobs though
Peter Piper claimed he picked them, he just underpaid Pablo
But there ain't a paper trail when you living in the shadows
We're America's ghost writers, the credit's only borrowed
It's a matter of time before the checks all come
But
Immigrants, we get the job done
Look how far I come
Look how far I come
Look how far I come
We get the job done
Look how far I come
Look how far I come
Look how far I come
Immigrants, we get the job
Not yet
The credit is only borrowed
It's America's ghost writers, the credit's only borrowed
It's America's ghost writers
America's ghost writers
America's ghost writers, the credit's only borrow-borrowed
It's America's ghost writers, a credit is only borrowed
It's America's ghost writers, a credit is only borrowed
It's America's ghost writers, a credit is only borrowed
It's
Immigrants, we get the job done
Ay yo aye, immigrants we don't like that
Na they don't play British empire strikes back
They beating us like 808's and high hats
At our own game of invasion, but this ain't Iraq
Who these fugees what did they do for me
But contribute new dreams
Taxes and tools, swagger and food to eat
Cool, they flee war zones, but the problem ain't ours
Even if our bombs landed on them like the Mayflower
Buckingham Palace or Capitol Hill
Blood of my ancestors had that all built
It's the ink you print on your dollar bill, oil you spill
Thin red lines on the flag you hoist when you kill
But still we just say "look how far I come"
Hindustan, Pakistan, to London
To a galaxy far from their ignorance
'Cause
Immigrants, we get the job done
Por tierra o por agua
Identidad falsa
Brincamos muros o flotamos en balsas
La peleamos como Sandino en Nicaragua
Somos como las plantas que crecen sin agua
Sin pasaporte americano
Porque la mitad de gringolandia es terreno mexicano
Hay que ser bien hijo de puta
Nosotros les sembramos el árbol y ellos se comen la frutas
Somos los que cruzaron
Aquí vinimos a buscar el oro que nos robaron
Tenemos mas trucos que la policía secreta
Metimos la casa completa en una maleta
Con un pico, una pala
Y un rastrillo
Te construimos un castillo
Como es que dice el coro cabrón?
Immigrants, we get the job done
Look how far I come
Look how far I come
Look how far I come
We get the job done
Look how far I come
Look how far I come
Look how far I come
Immigrants, we get the job done
Look how far I come
Look how far I come
Look how far I come
Immigrants, we get the job done
Not yet

Bob i hate to break it to you, but America has started to become a little bit of a joke in the rest of the world... Your rude, pig headed and frankly severely lacking in intelligence and personal skills president is taking you backwards. But that's no indictment on Americans, because many states have thankfully backed the climate accord, and if non-Trump aligned Americans are to blame for anything, it is only not being able to force the correct candidate through to beat Trump. If we want the drift of American political opinion in Europe these days, we have to watch late night talk shows rather than listening to the president.

Three things happened RE: Paris accord.
One - the American president has used a European stage to demand spurious money from Europe and turned them publicly into opponents rather than allies. Even the worst Brexiteers had the good grace to make that claim on smaller stages where they could be laughed at - it's banter, not a serious political point, except to Trump! Apparently friendship is now an issue of economics, so if Russia decided to start a war, America's involvement might depend on how much it costs to be involved (or who Trump's personal mates are, or what Russia has on him) despite being a key cause of war.
Two - other countries including China all came together to show international brotherhood *against Trump*. This is now Trump's position in the eyes of worldwide public opinion; Trump stands opposed to the entire rest of the world save two countries Syria and Nicaragua! America has *stepped away* from the rest of the world. So now the rest of the world is by definition leading America, showing her the way.
Three - Trump has shown us that he is not interested in listening to the best logical reasoning, the best mathematical models, from the combined talent of the best minds that this planet has produced. So he's completely unreliable.

I think even Trump's fiercest proponents must now start to admit, in private, that they didn't get what they thought they were getting. He is a psychological child with the arrogance of a rich grown man.

As my fellow sifters would most likely say
that the originator of this TeleSUR Television network s multi-state funded, pan–Latin American television network sponsored by the Commie governments of Venezuela, Cuba, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Uruguay, and Bolivia that is headquartered in Caracas, Venezuela. and that this is no more than a hack job on our political process backed door-ed by Putin himself.

Podestia emails are private and reading them is illegal and and the validity can not be determined and hence this is just more BS so Putin can get Trump installed as POTUS. After all they are best friends.

Needs to be tagged a lies

I guess they'd have to prosecute John Kerry because he did the same damn thing when Reagan was president when he went down to Nicaragua to work a deal with Daniel Ortega.

*promote

...again... This is a good documentary. I'll have to see if I can find a HD backup with the same English subtitles done (as the others typically just use Google's "hope it works" system; and of course it always fails spectacularly). Not only is China doing to themselves the same things we also did to ourselves at the beginning of the 20th century, they are doing it on a far bigger scale. They are also doing many idiotic things right now around the planet. Like: they want to build a nuclear reactor in Pakistan, near heavy terrorist issues, and also a region where earthquakes and floods hit a lot; second, they want to create a "secondary" Panama Canal, that goes through Nicaragua (part of the path goes through the America's largest fresh water lake, which is also very important), and of course there are others.

They've just got their hands dirty with the industrial revolution, but they are taking a lot of bad steps; some of which just seem like they're meant to one day cause us or other countries issues...

Where do you live exactly because I'm guessing that I can find similar propaganda tools in your society as well. The United States is unique in a few ways, and it's Public Relations Machine is absolutely amazing. Hitler and Goebbels copied it because at the time it was the most advanced in the world at Manufacturing Consent.

I meet some people from foreign countries who like to run America down in some ways and they're correct a lot of the time and sometimes I participate with them. There are other times though where say someone from the UK or France speaks up and I just have to slam them down. The UK is a joke with it's rules against broadcasting and freedom of speech, an absolutely backward democracy. France is way WAY worse in regards to it's worship of academias charlatans. Just bullshit constantly being peddled in both places that would NEVER fly in the United States.

And Australia specifically because I know there's some Aussies on the board that like to run America and the UK down. Do you guys like being told what video game is ok to buy? Do you like trying to find your way around archaic bullshit rules that the US public would've fucking smashed in a second if they were even suggested?

America has a lot of fucking problems, and this is certainly tied to the biggest. The fact that we will go through another HUGE crash in a couple years that will be worse than the 2008 one. It might actually solve our fucking problems though. The first crash caused some serious organization and it had to be put down violently. It didn't continue with serious steam because a lot of people were still doing ok. What about the next horrible crash that should be much much bigger. You think organization will be difficult then? It's only a matter of time, and it's looking good for the activists. Sadly time is not on our side with regards to the planet.

And the reason why it's looking good for the activists in America is because we have some education in stopping Wars because of activism, in stopping barbarism. You want to think we're backward, what other Empire in ALLLLLL Of human history actually had civilians go and live with their victims to try and stop their armies destroying them. There isn't an example in all of history except for good ol' Americans doing it in Vietnam and Nicaragua.

Also this might be a minor point but didn't we at our birth overthrow probably the worst Empire ever to exist? Which I might add caused everyone else to start throwing them off like a hot blanket in the Arab Spring (American influence Arab Spring).

You said Bloody so I'm gonna assume you're from Britainland, the land that gave us Big Brother. We should've burned the UK to the ground a long time ago, the Nazis before the Nazis even existed.

India, Curacao,Mexico, Ecuador, Guatemala, Venezuela, Bolivia, Dominican Republic and NICARAGUA! (whoa, awesome like sex)
Belgium, fucking what?
USA's sucked 8-levels of wrong-party, donkey balls

Regimes supported

Juan Vicente Gomez, Venezuela, 1908-1935.
Jorge Ubico, Guatemala, 1931-1944.
Fulgencio Batista, Republic of Cuba 1952-1959.
Syngman Rhee, Republic of Korea (South Korea), 1948-1960.
Rafael Trujillo, Dominican Republic, 1930-1961.[citation needed]
Ngo Dinh Diem, Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam), 1955-1963.
Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, Iran, 1953-1979.
Anastasio Somoza Garcia, Nicaragua, 1967-1979.
Military Junta in Guatemala, 1954-1982.
Military Junta in Bolivia, 1964-1982.[citation needed]
Military Junta in Argentina, 1976-1983.
Brazilian military government, 1964-1985.
François Duvalier and Jean-Claude Duvalier, Republic of Haiti, 1957-1971; 1971-1986.[citation needed]
Alfredo Stroessner, Paraguay, 1954-1989.[citation needed]
Ferdinand Marcos, Philippines, 1965-1986.[8][9]
General Manuel Noriega, Republic of Panama, 1983-1989.
General Augusto Pinochet, Chile, 1973-1990.
Saddam Hussein, Republic of Iraq, 1982-1990.
General (military), Suharto Republic of Indonesia, 1975-1995.
Mobutu Sese Seko, Zaire/Congo, 1965-1997.
Hosni Mubarak, Egypt, 1981-2011.
Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa, Kingdom of Bahrain, 2012.
Saudi royal family, 2012.
Islam Karimov, Uzbekistan, 1991-2012.[10]
Meles Zenawi, Ethiopia, 1995-2012.[11]
Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo, Equatorial Guinea, 2006-2012.[12]

@lantern53 Where were Bush's apologies? Didn't he say that history would be the judge hence no need to apologise? Also, the government is not some mythical separate entity from 'the people". America is the bastion of democracy, don't you agree? How are we to separate the actions of its people from its government? Democracy, especially one as purportedly strong as your own, implies consent if not endorsement.

@bcglorf The first point just restates what I said which I think we both agree on.

The second point about Pakistan has been over simplified to the point of misdirection. There are 3 domains of power in Pakistan; the ISI (Intelligence), the military and the government. The ISI largely controls the madrassahs and although there is a huge amount of violence in Pakistan at the moment (something you won't hear about in Western news broadcasts) the main area of contention there is about Kashmir. It has little if nothing to do with the USA. In fact the USA aids the Pakistan cause by their alliance with Pakistan in an attempt to oppose Chinese backed India. Further, charities does not automatically mean state-based endorsement. Its quite a stretch.

Plus, I can name many muslim nations that did not have spontaneous celebrations. Afghanistan for one. Sure maybe a few in Kabul got wind of it but as a nation they are still pretty much in the dark about the whole thing. Some more, Turkey (secular yes but muslim by demos), Azer Baijan, Sudan, Bosnia-Herzogoznia, Burkina Faso, Chad, Comoros, Gambia, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan, Mauritania, Somalia.... I'm sure there were lots of other countries that had spontaneous displays of celebration after 9/11... France, Cuba, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Venuzuela, Russia, Guatemala, Vietnam, Philippines, Laos, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Mexico, Serbia.

To paint any display of celebration with the brush of enemy eliminates any nuance or desire for understanding complex issues for the sake of post hoc raltionalisation of ones own immediate intuitions. Does the Westboro Baptist Church mean that America is no better than any of the Muslim nations you list? Of course not. To say as much as absurd. To see brown people doing the same is merely convenient.

The third point you seem to provide your own refutation. Drones etc do indeed fuel Al Queda. You admit as much. If the AL Qaeda aim is indeed about Pakistan and India (which I think you may be very confused about Al-Qaeda and its Pakistani brethren, two very separate entities with almost no commonality bar what we grant them). Al Qaeda in the Bin Laden days cared nothing for Pakistan. It was almost entirely focused on Saudi Arabia and only went to Afghanistan as a sort of Boys Own adventure club. They were the laughing stock of the Mujahaddin.

Whenever I hear someone quote some Harvard Law prof or someone touting the idea that framers of the constitution did not mean for folks to own guns for anything but a militia, I have to simply laugh. It's obvious what they meant and if you brought back a group of school children from the Revolutionary war period and let them have look at the state of affairs of this little experiment, they'd wonder what has been put into the water supply to render seemingly intelligent people of today, hopelessly confused and gullible.

A well-regulated militia: The 18th-century equivalent to the U.S. Armed Forces perhaps??

DC v. Heller (2008)
U.S. v. Miller (1939)
U.S. v. Cruikshank (1875)

A few Supreme court rulings above to peruse and lest we forget, in order to change the document, you do so by amendment. the 18th made alcohol illegal and the 22nd made it fine for adults to drink alcohol again....a right and privilege of people since the motherfucking beginning of civilization...HELLO!!???

Yeah, they can take our guns, O' America and the dark hour (if it comes in my lifetime) everyone signs off on it is the day I move to fucking Canada Mexico, Belize, Nicaragua, COSTA RICA??....Fuck, anywhere white people aren't retarded drunk on 21st Century Kool-Aid HIstory with a government years away from buggering them!

May have to tunnel into the earth's crust to find such a place as more insane the world becomes daily.

Ya know there were Christian Families who went to live in Nicaragua with other families where were at risk, to act like a human shield preventing the US backed forces from murdering them as they did countless others.

Morality doesn't matter Penn. What matters is results. It doesn't matter if you're Christian, or Atheist, or whatever. What matters is what you do. If you want to draw a line though and take the moral high ground let me point to the story of the Christians who lived with the threatened families in Nicaragua. And let me ask for a similar story of Atheists giving their protection to others.

I'm more atheist than anything, but I'm getting sick of people drawing lines and picking teams. Penn talking about taking the moral high ground is being divisive, so do yourself a favor, and don't listen to this fat idiot.

EDIT: Also I'm pretty sure a lot of the Nobel Prize winners believe in god, what the fuck is he talking about at the end?

A *terrible idea.

The nuttiest one I heard was to use tens of thousands of nukes to dig a sea level canal through Nicaragua.

@Psychologic

If the implication is that subsequent generations from Nicaragua or El Salvador do well academically and economically, I'd be skeptical because all the factors appear to be very similar.

On the other hand, if the implication is that immigrant children from regions like Asia or India do well, yes, that's to be expected.

In general, my experience when I was an academic working in this area was that academics want very much for some things to be true, so they'll often mess up their results.

That's pretty amazing...you'll never see America doing that with say Cuba, Haiti, or Nicaragua.