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Sarah Silverman's Monologue at the MTV Movie Awards

Empire Brokeback - Droid love

Bulimic Vampire - 5secondfilms

Paperclips respond to electromagnets under train floor

JiggaJonson says...

Ahem - let me correct some of this attempted nerditry.
Yes hard drives do contain powerful magnets but they are shielded pretty heavily to prevent data corruption via electromagnetic fields. The way data corruption would occur is either on the silicone of the motherboard (or other cards) OR through the ide/sata cables (in both cases they are shielded but not as much as the hard drive and thus are more susceptible to EMF)

Variable field magnetic motor

joedirt says...

I believe the patent is here: http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=2008072372&IA=JP2007001377&DISPLAY=DOCS

Someone find some Englirh publications.

It could have to do with dynamic breaking, but that doesn't make sense, you want maximum field coupling for that energy transfer.

What I believe they are doing is the actuator pushes the windings further away from the rotor. What that does is reduce the coupling, and hence the back EMF. So I believe this is a way to get faster RPM then the 100% of a DC motor. So this is a way to make a DC motor with high torque at low RPM and then widen the RPM range by ??? to increase the top speed. It's really useful when you consider the lack of transmission on these solar cars.

Dissapearing Bees (Worldaffairs Talk Post)

joedirt says...

One problem with the EMF theory is that cell towers have been around for how long? And the recent proliferation is mostly along freeways and big cities. So the recent rapid decline of bee populations could only be related to cell phones if it is based upon the switch to GSM and digital cell phone networks that require more towers that are placed at closer intervals, but ironically lower power. But there could be some truth to 1.8/1.9GHz cell phone towers being a problem, but the 900MHz EMF polution has been around for awhile (two decades?).

I personally think you might be able to blame Nextel as my hunch is their bands would be more harmful to bees.

Also the bee colony problem happens in rural places, but that could be an argument for why high power cell towers are used. What makes the whole argument stupid is that TV broadcasts are much stronger, so until I see a study claiming a specific EM frequency that is a problem, then I'll assume virus, mite, etc. (Now birds and butterflies on the other hand...)

Are Cell phone towers and HV power lines killing us?

rembar says...

I just had a conversation with a former coworker on this topic, and while discussing the 2005 Oxford leukemia study, we had a horrible, evil thought. Since this is a relatively recent study, imagine the most ironic scenario to explain the statistical finding: Overinflated reports of power lines causing cancer results in young couples becoming unwilling to live near power lines, while older couples (note a correlation of age of parents to leukemia in progeny) who have already settled in to their homes near power lines don't move, resulting in a self-fulfilling prophecy of the silliest kind. This would only have to happen a small percentage of the time comparatively to result in the consequently small percentage increase of childhood leukemia occurrence near power lines. This is just one of hundreds of scenarios that beat the EMF causality issue on Occam's razor test.

Are Cell phone towers and HV power lines killing us?

rembar says...

In the intro to the pdf you posted, it refs a study on human cells which agrees with my assertion about exposure mutation.

Well, that was kind of the point of my referencing that particular study, as the basis for using a study on S. cerevisiae was as a setup to establish a baseline by which to compare mutagenicity, carcinogenic response, and other potential to reactions. It references the human cell exposure (notably, melanoma and osteosarcoma cells) study and a few others specifically because it was indirectly questioning the validity of those results, as they study S. cerevisiae's mutagenesis but also its recombinational repair. If you note in the conclusion, Shimizu et. al. suggest that ELF-MF "LF-MF does not injure the basic genetic system in the same manner as ionizing radiation or chemical carcinogen does". It is because of this that they call for further research on yet-more indirect mechanisms for any effects of MF exposure, and also a call for better exclusion of experimental setup issues ("involvement of eddy currents induced in the culture medium could not be precluded"). In fact, I do believe these issues of experimental procedure are very difficult to deal with - going through similar papers, they are a constant concern, especially when it comes to bacteria. This is ultimately a large issue of expanding all disease-related effects from simple organisms to more complex organisms, as complex organisms - in full, not just isolated cells - will ultimately not respond to such delicate, unintentional and untracked variable changes in experimental environment. This is, again, why epidemiological studies of humans will trump small-scale bacterial studies.

Certainly many of the things we take for granted in our lives are many times more dangerous then HV lines, you will get no argument from me on that. While I do see the tendency by many to fixate on a minor risk while ignoring real risks(terrorism vs car accidents for instance), that does not mean that the proper response should be to discount concerns of risk which are based on unexceptional claims, even if we lack conclusive proof.

I see your point, in that in the face of a great risk, minor risks should not be ignored. However, my argument is that in the face of all adequate studies, all evidence points to an either insignificant or non-existent risk.

Due to the complexity of the systems involved the correlation of leukemia to HV lines (as in the 2005 study from Oxford) is very similar to the correlation of global atmospheric temperature to CO2.

To the specific study (Childhood cancer in relation to distance from high voltage power lines in England and Wales: a case-control study):
This study actually is pretty deep and requires a strong analysis not typically afforded it. Of note in the study, is the fact that they control using the Carstairs deprivation index for socioeconomic status statistically, specifically for affluence vs. risk of childhood leukemia. This needs to be considered with the fact that they're studying an association between distance of home address at birth from high voltage power lines. Do you see the issue in the combination of that control and that effect study? The basic control isn't so easily useable because of the number of confounding variables, including numbers of moves vs. birth location (stress factor), parental employment vs. location, etc. (These are only indirectly related to socioeconomic status as countered by Carstairs index, which uses four indicators: population density, owning a car, low social class, and male unemployment.) Then when you consider, within 200m, the analysis found a relative risk of 1.69 (95% confidence interval 1.13 to 2.53), the result becomes not merely questionable but likely variably confounded, something that the paper notes: "There is no accepted biological mechanism to explain the epidemiological results; indeed, the relation may be due to chance or confounding." and "We have no satisfactory explanation for our results in terms of causation by magnetic fields, and the findings are not supported by convincing laboratory data or any accepted biological mechanism." and "We emphasise again the uncertainty about whether this statistical association represents a causal relation.", which altogether amounts to an immense amount of ass-covering.

It is also worth mentioning that assuming "400-420 cases of childhood leukaemia occurring annually, about five would be associated with high voltage power lines" approximately, and childhood leukemia is a pretty rare disease as it is. The amount of money blown on these types of studies would cover the treatment for these patients many times over. Of course, the issue of extended disease results still needs to be dealt with, but from the standpoint of pragmatism....

Overall my concern is more that the HV lines are an anachronism, just as with CO2 spewing cars and power plants, it is not technologically necessary to put up with these things when we have better option which use less energy, and produce less waste, both in physical and EMF terms. I think arguing that it may be a small risk, but it would be better to do away with the tech even if it were not, is more pragmatic then arguing from a complex, and sometimes conflicting, body of data that we should ignore it.

My argument with this sift specifically lies in epidemiological claims, and I take up the debate because of my interest in the topic and my exposure to the issue. I am arguing against claims of increase in disease incidence as caused by EMF exposure from power lines, cell phone towers, etc., something that has not only not been demonstrated but that, if causally linked, is highly unlikely to matter in any reasonable scale of public life. From a scientific/academic perspective, it's worth researching. From a medical perspective, most likely not. From a public health perspective, almost certainly not. And we're being practical here.

Like I said, I have no experience or anything approaching debate-worthy levels of knowledge on the technological necessity or lack thereof of HV lines, something separate from its possibility of causing diseases. If you would like to sift something about the technology of HV lines and its economic feasibility or some such that I could watch and then read up on, I'd be more than happy to look into it.

Are Cell phone towers and HV power lines killing us?

dgandhi says...

rembar:
In the intro to the pdf you posted, it refs a study on human cells which agrees with my assertion about exposure mutation. I also googled a study which showed variance in type of mutation induced by X-rays with and without the presence of ELF before I wrote my first post, but I don't have the link on hand. I agree that we lack hard evidence for any specific causality of harm to humans.

I don't really see this as significantly different from the CO2 issue. They both can be tied, through complex causality, to effects on complex systems the outcome of which is ultimately unclear, but suggestive of problems. Due to the complexity of the systems involved the correlation of leukemia to HV lines (as in the 2005 study from Oxford) is very similar to the correlation of global atmospheric temperature to CO2.

I think the evidence suggests that the risk of O3 exposure as a consequence of the use of internal combustion engines is many times more dangerous to humans then ELF is likely to be, so If we have to pick, we should get rid of cars, but that does not mean that ELF is harmless. Certainly many of the things we take for granted in our lives are many times more dangerous then HV lines, you will get no argument from me on that. While I do see the tendency by many to fixate on a minor risk while ignoring real risks(terrorism vs car accidents for instance), that does not mean that the proper response should be to discount concerns of risk which are based on unexceptional claims, even if we lack conclusive proof.

Overall my concern is more that the HV lines are an anachronism, just as with CO2 spewing cars and power plants, it is not technologically necessary to put up with these things when we have better option which use less energy, and produce less waste, both in physical and EMF terms. I think arguing that it may be a small risk, but it would be better to do away with the tech even if it were not, is more pragmatic then arguing from a complex, and sometimes conflicting, body of data that we should ignore it.

disclaimer: I'm not sure I believe all that, I did a lot of googling to write this response, and I may be on the cusp of changing my mind and fully agreeing with rembar, so if I disclaim anything I'm posting right now, don't be surprised

EMF "Unbelievable"

Electricity from a house plant

Bentley Rhythm Ace - Theme From Gutbuster (dancing Eskimo!)

benjee says...

A funny British big beat music video from Bentley Rhythm Ace:

Bentley Rhythm Ace (BRA) is a duo formed in Birmingham, England in the late 1990s consisting of Mike Stokes and Richard March. The band were formed by former members of the group Pop Will Eat Itself, with guest appearances by D.J. Milf, a member of indie band EMF. Their live drummer was Fuzz Townshend, with whom March previously played in Pop Will Eat Itself - Wiki.

EMF: Lies

The Matrix: Lobby Shootout Scene

EMF: Unbelievable



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