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The poor who currently don't pay any taxes should be contributing something. Most of them have fridges, for crying out loud!

>> ^Phreezdryd:

The poor who currently don't pay any taxes should be contributing something. Most of them have fridges, for crying out loud!


without a door that they live in

>> ^packo:

>> ^Phreezdryd:
The poor who currently don't pay any taxes should be contributing something. Most of them have fridges, for crying out loud!

without a door that they live in

(Slow golf clap...)

The chances are quite high that you know many Americans in the top 10% who report about $150K+/year (as combined household income): they're your friends and neighbors (or, if not, certainly the top 15%, at a mere $100K+/year combined household income).

The top 10% pays, roughly, 70% of the total national income tax. If only they'd pay 95%-100%, then I wouldn't need to pay any myself...on second thought, I take it back, lets have the top 1% (roughly $400K/year combined who currently pay about 30% of all income tax) pay 100% of taxes (or at least triple it to 90%), so I won't have to pay any! Yeah, that's what we should do -- just keep me safely out of that group.

Youre missing it entirely....the percentage those top 10% pay, is like 15%...where everyone else is paying 45%.

Capital gains tax as the only form of income tax paid is obscene...income is income, shouldn't matter where it comes from.

My wife and I are in the top 10%. I assure you, we are paying in excess of 30% on our taxes, especially if you throw in state and property tax (cali). However, at the end of the day, I don't mind paying my fair share, as long as it is not used for stupid wars and such. If we could have a national health care system, I would gladly pay a little more to support that.

I see the taxes I pay, which help to maintain a relatively safe and prosperous country, where people can pursue opportunity, as simply a good investment which has yielded a high return.

Federal government wastes half of every tax dollar.

So what's this magic millionaire money going to do that the spending addicts haven't done already?

Why can't there be legislation that enabled people to vote on where SPECIFICALLY their tax money goes? Lobbyists would have a much harder time, people would feel better about big government, and voting would have real power.

Because nobody in power believes in democracy Edgeman.

>> ^Fade:

Because nobody in power believes in democracy Edgeman.


and that'd cut into the money going to representatives from lobbies/corporations...

why, in this age of technology, can not all bills be posted online of a government website, along with the voting results (including which representatives were for and against) certain bills?

because then they'd actually have some accountability to the people they represent

It's going to start paying back for the two useless wars that some idiot president started about 8 years ago. One thing is for sure though, not taxing them did not create jobs!

>> ^quantumushroom:

Federal government wastes half of every tax dollar.
So what's this magic millionaire money going to do that the spending addicts haven't done already?

Names would've helped. I feel that I'm pretty knowledgeable of modern politics and I could only name about 35% of them by face recognition alone.

income versus spending... nevermind the endless wars started by both republicans and democrats

>> ^quantumushroom:

Federal government wastes half of every tax dollar.
So what's this magic millionaire money going to do that the spending addicts haven't done already?


Remember QM, spending addiction knows no party affiliation. so-called conservatives haven't been able to balance the budget for a long time. They cling to the myth even though it hasn't been true for a long time.

Not to mention the lesson that conservatives still haven't learned yet despite history brow-beating them over the head repeatedly: You *cant* save your way out of a recession. You *have* to spend money to get money. All your millionaire buddies know this QM, yet they continue to sabotage gov't with their double standard. It's ok for them to spend money...but not anyone else.

His Earness has burned through 4 trillion dollars already. Why didn't he put any of it towards "paying off" the wars?

The logic here is astounding. When the wealthy keep more of what they earn, the left claims they don't use it to create jobs, but when the wealthy are taxed at a higher rate, the government (which creates nothing) can't use the "extra" revenue create jobs. Repeating: 4 trillions dollars already down the shitter, no jobs created.


>> ^MonkeySpank:

It's going to start paying back for the two useless wars that some idiot president started about 8 years ago. One thing is for sure though, not taxing them did not create jobs!
>> ^quantumushroom:
Federal government wastes half of every tax dollar.
So what's this magic millionaire money going to do that the spending addicts haven't done already?

I agree with you that both parties are spending addicts, but one party certainly seems to burn though the money a heckuva lot faster than the other. Remember also, Republicans don't govern in a vacuum; should they try to cut spending, they are immediately assaulted by the State-run media as "trying to kill children", not to mention the lies about the Right somehow planning to scrap Socialist Security and the Medi-welfare programs EVERY election cycle.

Spending money to make money? Keynesian bullplop. FDR's folly prolonged the Depression until his arse was saved by WW2.

Here's a fresh idea: curtail the federal leviathan from spending money it doesn't have, return more power to the States.





>> ^VoodooV:

>> ^quantumushroom:
Federal government wastes half of every tax dollar.
So what's this magic millionaire money going to do that the spending addicts haven't done already?

Remember QM, spending addiction knows no party affiliation. so-called conservatives haven't been able to balance the budget for a long time. They cling to the myth even though it hasn't been true for a long time.
Not to mention the lesson that conservatives still haven't learned yet despite history brow-beating them over the head repeatedly: You cant save your way out of a recession. You have to spend money to get money. All your millionaire buddies know this QM, yet they continue to sabotage gov't with their double standard. It's ok for them to spend money...but not anyone else.

Sadly, reality disagrees with you, QM

Nice thumbnail pic. Seems somebody has an obsession.. it just gets under your skin he's not a fraud like your political heroes, huh?

You do realize that being a millionaire and having yearly income of $1 Mil are two different things right?

Wasn't Buffet's argument that he pays less taxes than his secretary because he doesn't have "income"? He only pays a capital gains tax of 15%? lolz So who's the clueless jackass that came up with the name "Buffet Rule" for a tax on high income earners?

And why the arbitrary number $1 Million? Why not $500k, or $50k? Does it really matter anyway? The Income tax was passed using wealth envy propaganda (pay their "fair share"). It originally started out only taxing the top 1% of income earners. But it quickly expanded once the government had their foot in the door (or hands in our wallets). There wouldn't be a need for income tax if we didn't still have to pay interest on money we borrowed that was created from nothing almost a century ago. Of course we can't pay off that false debt, because it's physically impossible.

What's even more fucked up about this whole thing is the ultra rich are always going to be given exceptions, rebates, loopholes, tax shelters, etc. Taxing "millionaires" is taxing small business owners that file their business gross income on their personal income returns. It completely ignores the criminals that have already made millions on Wall street through fraud and collusion. And it gives a pass to the crooks that are doing that now.

What if we actually did something constructive like list the millionaire politicians who REFUSE to prosecute Wall Street fraud. Isn't that the real reason we are here? Is taxing "millionaires" going to fix the problem?

The government has made it official policy not to prosecute fraud, and instead to do everything necessary to cover up for Wall Street.


William K. Black: This is the greatest financial crime in the history of the world and no one senior, at any of the major places that drove the crisis, has gone to jail?
...
Unless something dramatic or radical changes, this is going to be the greatest case of elite fraud with impunity in the history of the world. And it is only going to change if we express our outrage as the people and demand that it is changed.

Your assumption is that the government will create jobs. I don't expect the government to create jobs - that's socialism. Just so you get this straight. I am not a democrat - I am a libertarian. I don't care about Obama; he is a failed president - just like Bush Jr., Carter, and Reagan. I'd rather have Ron Paul in the office, but you have to understand that we DO need a government. You have to understand that conservatives are not helping the situation either - two years in congress and nothing to show for. On top of all this, the hoards of Tea Party drama queens have been a horrible addition to our economic climate. They are not happy with anything, and are not offering any solutions. They give a bad name to the rest of the libertarians.

I don't like pensions, I don't like entitlements, and I don't like big government. However, everybody bitches about not having any money, yet nobody is willing to give up their benefits, pensions, and social security. Nobody is boycotting Chinese products at Wallmart/ToysRUs or outsourced manufactured goods. Nobody is willing to send their kids to private schools, yet they want to put a tourniquet on the education system. It's total hypocrisy. I hope the movement will die soon so we can go back to reconstruction.

The key word in this whole debate is "deficit." The money is already gone, and no amount of budget balancing alone will pay back the ridiculous amount the government already owes. I call on all these house representatives and government officials to take a 15% salary cut and pay for their own private health care. Let's see how patriotic they are. That'd be a good start; if that's not enough, then we can revisit the talks about taxing the rich.

As they say "Those who make the rules don't play the game."

>> ^quantumushroom:

His Earness has burned through 4 trillion dollars already. Why didn't he put any of it towards "paying off" the wars?
The logic here is astounding. When the wealthy keep more of what they earn, the left claims they don't use it to create jobs, but when the wealthy are taxed at a higher rate, the government (which creates nothing) can't use the "extra" revenue create jobs. Repeating: 4 trillions dollars already down the shitter, no jobs created.

>> ^MonkeySpank:
It's going to start paying back for the two useless wars that some idiot president started about 8 years ago. One thing is for sure though, not taxing them did not create jobs!
>> ^quantumushroom:
Federal government wastes half of every tax dollar.
So what's this magic millionaire money going to do that the spending addicts haven't done already?

>> ^quantumushroom:

Federal government wastes half of every tax dollar.
So what's this magic millionaire money going to do that the spending addicts haven't done already?


Hello misdirection, nice to meet you

>> ^quantumushroom:
Federal government wastes half of every tax dollar. So what's this magic millionaire money going to do that the spending addicts haven't done already?

Looking at your link, it appears that is just a poll of people's opinions, not fact. While I imagine there is definitely waste, 50% is likely way overestimating it.

>> ^quantumushroom:

Federal government wastes half of every tax dollar.
So what's this magic millionaire money going to do that the spending addicts haven't done already?


I agree that the government wastes shitloads of money but your link is not worthy as a citation. That's the results of a poll in which they ask people how many cents on the dollar they think the federal government wastes. It shows that mistrust is at an all-time high, not that waste is at an all-time high.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/149543/Americans-Say-Federal-Gov-Wastes-Half-Every-Dollar.aspx

Of course, QM is once again using a strawman. No one is disputing that gov't can be wasteful.

The difference in opinion seems to lie in what to do about it. Reps want to sabotage gov't, de-fund it and make it worse. Dems and Independents actually want to fix the problem.

Reps also seem to think it's ok to tell people to go fuck off and die in a alley if they don't meet their so-called standards. And even if you do meet their standards, if you're not rich, you're still a second class citizen. Of course, when they, themselves, fail to meet said standards, its ok to receive a bailout or handout.

Once again, we seem to be forgetting nuance. No one is saying raising taxes alone will fix the problem, but the talking points seem to shift into the punditry of Dems are for only raising taxes and Reps are for only cutting spending. When the truth is that we need to do both.

>> ^MonkeySpank:

Your assumption is that the government will create jobs. I don't expect the government to create jobs - that's socialism. Just so you get this straight. I am not a democrat - I am a libertarian. I don't care about Obama; he is a failed president - just like Bush Jr., Carter, and Reagan. I'd rather have Ron Paul in the office, but you have to understand that we DO need a government. You have to understand that conservatives are not helping the situation either - two years in congress and nothing to show for. On top of all this, the hoards of Tea Party drama queens have been a horrible addition to our economic climate. They are not happy with anything, and are not offering any solutions. They give a bad name to the rest of the libertarians.
I don't like pensions, I don't like entitlements, and I don't like big government. However, everybody bitches about not having any money, yet nobody is willing to give up their benefits, pensions, and social security. Nobody is boycotting Chinese products at Wallmart/ToysRUs or outsourced manufactured goods. Nobody is willing to send their kids to private schools, yet they want to put a tourniquet on the education system. It's total hypocrisy. I hope the movement will die soon so we can go back to reconstruction.
The key word in this whole debate is "deficit." The money is already gone, and no amount of budget balancing alone will pay back the ridiculous amount the government already owes. I call on all these house representatives and government officials to take a 15% salary cut and pay for their own private health care. Let's see how patriotic they are. That'd be a good start; if that's not enough, then we can revisit the talks about taxing the rich.
As they say "Those who make the rules don't play the game."
>> ^quantumushroom:
His Earness has burned through 4 trillion dollars already. Why didn't he put any of it towards "paying off" the wars?
The logic here is astounding. When the wealthy keep more of what they earn, the left claims they don't use it to create jobs, but when the wealthy are taxed at a higher rate, the government (which creates nothing) can't use the "extra" revenue create jobs. Repeating: 4 trillions dollars already down the shitter, no jobs created.

>> ^MonkeySpank:
It's going to start paying back for the two useless wars that some idiot president started about 8 years ago. One thing is for sure though, not taxing them did not create jobs!
>> ^quantumushroom:
Federal government wastes half of every tax dollar.
So what's this magic millionaire money going to do that the spending addicts haven't done already?





You do know that cutting senator pay and benefits is a drop in the bucket. Overpaid as they are, they're still gov't employees and really don't make anything compared to their private sector counterparts.

No one is saying we shouldn't cut spending. It just can't be the only thing we do. There is nothing wrong with entitlements and pensions as long as they are paid for and efficient. Sure there is waste and corruption in government. The obvious answer is, eliminate the waste, root out the corruption. But that takes regulations and enforcement. Two things that Libertarians seem to oppose.

Freedom is really quite a myth. There are plenty of things people are not allowed to do because we as a society has deemed that they are harmful to others. We live in this country and thus, we have agreed to live by it's rules. If you don't like it, get the hell out.

I'm fine with making sacrifices, but dude, you need to remember what a luxury is and what a necessity. Pensions and entitlements for some people ARE necessities. It's not just some giveaway to people who don't need it. you want to cut entitlements? why do rich people even get medicare and social security and other entitlements...they don't need them obviously...they're rich..so they have the most, so they can shoulder more burden without being seriously affected.

It takes a scalpel, not a bludgeon. There is plenty of waste in social entitlements that even dems would be willing to cut. Get out of these wars we're in. No one is saying throw the military under the bus and leave our nation unprotected but we clearly don't need to spend as much on defense as we do. There are plenty of expensive pie in the sky defense projects out there that simply don't need to exist right now. get rid of them.

Dems have already agreed to plenty of cuts, Dems have compromised up the butt or have you forgotten Boehner bragging about he got 98 percent of what he wanted. Now it's time to bring some extra revenue to help pay those bills and invest in green tech that will improve our economy.

Pardon the pun but cutting alone just doesn't....cut it. Legalize and tax the fuck out of Marijuana. empty out the non-violent offenders in our prisons.

Gov't will shrink and grow as it needs to be. the size of gov't is unimportant, it just needs to be efficient. And small gov't is not necessarily efficient gov't.

Why do people always think libertarians are anarchists? Just because I don't belong into either of these bullshit parties doesn't make me not believe in government. I do, however, believe that government is a social contract between you and me, and everyone else, and that contract has to be balanced since we all don't have the same opinion. With that said, I do not believe anything a democrat says, and I sure as hell don't believe anything a republican says. The sad part about these parties is that the only time in the last decade where they actually agreed unanimously at the house was right after 9/11. As for the people (fans), only sheep will agree with their party all the time.

As for size and function of government, this is dependent on the state of the country and the scope of government's responsibility (Federal vs State). If you read Jean Jacques Rousseau's Social Contract (Du Contrat Social), you'd see that an exemplary government is one that focuses service, and not laws. If you have a serious drug problem, then you should get help, not get thrown in jail. Alas, we have an archaic emotional government. Republicans want to limit personal freedom, and democrats want to limit economic freedom. I see no point in either one of those as long as nobody is unfairly treated. That is THE bottom line.

Three things should be considered essential to our future economy:
1) Education
2) Healthcare
3) Science Projects / Environment

I'd vote for anyone who is willing to throw everything else under the bus for reconsideration - regardless of partisanship. The reason I brought the politician's case to pay their own healthcare and get a pay cut is not to save money - You can't consciously deny others free healthcare when you yourself have it. That's what's happening in congress today.

I like your statement about the legalizing and taxing Marijuana; however, Marijuana can't be taxed as most people would grow it at home - I say just legalize it and stop wasting DOJ resources. I don't mind taxing the shit out of oil, use of plastics, tobacco, and alcohol.

>> ^VoodooV:

>> ^MonkeySpank:
Your assumption is that the government will create jobs. I don't expect the government to create jobs - that's socialism. Just so you get this straight. I am not a democrat - I am a libertarian. I don't care about Obama; he is a failed president - just like Bush Jr., Carter, and Reagan. I'd rather have Ron Paul in the office, but you have to understand that we DO need a government. You have to understand that conservatives are not helping the situation either - two years in congress and nothing to show for. On top of all this, the hoards of Tea Party drama queens have been a horrible addition to our economic climate. They are not happy with anything, and are not offering any solutions. They give a bad name to the rest of the libertarians.
I don't like pensions, I don't like entitlements, and I don't like big government. However, everybody bitches about not having any money, yet nobody is willing to give up their benefits, pensions, and social security. Nobody is boycotting Chinese products at Wallmart/ToysRUs or outsourced manufactured goods. Nobody is willing to send their kids to private schools, yet they want to put a tourniquet on the education system. It's total hypocrisy. I hope the movement will die soon so we can go back to reconstruction.
The key word in this whole debate is "deficit." The money is already gone, and no amount of budget balancing alone will pay back the ridiculous amount the government already owes. I call on all these house representatives and government officials to take a 15% salary cut and pay for their own private health care. Let's see how patriotic they are. That'd be a good start; if that's not enough, then we can revisit the talks about taxing the rich.
As they say "Those who make the rules don't play the game."
>> ^quantumushroom:
His Earness has burned through 4 trillion dollars already. Why didn't he put any of it towards "paying off" the wars?
The logic here is astounding. When the wealthy keep more of what they earn, the left claims they don't use it to create jobs, but when the wealthy are taxed at a higher rate, the government (which creates nothing) can't use the "extra" revenue create jobs. Repeating: 4 trillions dollars already down the shitter, no jobs created.

>> ^MonkeySpank:
It's going to start paying back for the two useless wars that some idiot president started about 8 years ago. One thing is for sure though, not taxing them did not create jobs!
>> ^quantumushroom:
Federal government wastes half of every tax dollar.
So what's this magic millionaire money going to do that the spending addicts haven't done already?




You do know that cutting senator pay and benefits is a drop in the bucket. Overpaid as they are, they're still gov't employees and really don't make anything compared to their private sector counterparts.
No one is saying we shouldn't cut spending. It just can't be the only thing we do. There is nothing wrong with entitlements and pensions as long as they are paid for and efficient. Sure there is waste and corruption in government. The obvious answer is, eliminate the waste, root out the corruption. But that takes regulations and enforcement. Two things that Libertarians seem to oppose.
Freedom is really quite a myth. There are plenty of things people are not allowed to do because we as a society has deemed that they are harmful to others. We live in this country and thus, we have agreed to live by it's rules. If you don't like it, get the hell out.
I'm fine with making sacrifices, but dude, you need to remember what a luxury is and what a necessity. Pensions and entitlements for some people ARE necessities. It's not just some giveaway to people who don't need it. you want to cut entitlements? why do rich people even get medicare and social security and other entitlements...they don't need them obviously...they're rich..so they have the most, so they can shoulder more burden without being seriously affected.
It takes a scalpel, not a bludgeon. There is plenty of waste in social entitlements that even dems would be willing to cut. Get out of these wars we're in. No one is saying throw the military under the bus and leave our nation unprotected but we clearly don't need to spend as much on defense as we do. There are plenty of expensive pie in the sky defense projects out there that simply don't need to exist right now. get rid of them.
Dems have already agreed to plenty of cuts, Dems have compromised up the butt or have you forgotten Boehner bragging about he got 98 percent of what he wanted. Now it's time to bring some extra revenue to help pay those bills and invest in green tech that will improve our economy.
Pardon the pun but cutting alone just doesn't....cut it. Legalize and tax the fuck out of Marijuana. empty out the non-violent offenders in our prisons.
Gov't will shrink and grow as it needs to be. the size of gov't is unimportant, it just needs to be efficient. And small gov't is not necessarily efficient gov't.

>> ^Edgeman2112:

Why can't there be legislation that enabled people to vote on where SPECIFICALLY their tax money goes? Lobbyists would have a much harder time, people would feel better about big government, and voting would have real power.


Because that could very well end the representative system altogether. For better or worse, the US is not a direct democracy. That is the assumption the whole system is built upon.

Boo! Millionares! Hiss! Boo!