"Honor Killing"

Scripture in action.
Six translations of Koran 4:34:
1. "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" (Rodwell's version of the Koran, 4:34)
2. "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme." (Dawood's version of the Koran, 4:34)
3. "Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great." (Pickthall's version of the Koran, 4:34)
4. "Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great." (Arberry's version of the Koran, 4:34)
5. "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. (Shakir's version of the Koran, 4:34)
6. "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali's version of the Koran, 4:34)


Obedience is not a virtue, and a man should never beat his wife. These old myths should not be taught as truth.
gwaansays...

Honour killings are a terrible crime - one which is NOT sanctioned by Islam. I will upvote this because it is a crime that people should be aware of and that we should all try our hardest to stamp out. However, while I accept that the verse you sight is problematic - it becomes a lot more problematic when it is taken out of its historical and Qur'anic context. Furthermore, the verse you cite has nothing to do with the killing of the poor Yazidi girl in this video. The girl was killed for belonging to an ethnic and religious minority - the Kurdish Yazidis - who were persecuted under the secular rule of Saddam as well.


The Qur'anic/historical context. The verse in question - Qur'an 4:34 - is proceeded by the following verse (Qur'an 4:33): "And to every one We have appointed heirs of what parents and near relatives leave; and as to those with whom your rights hands have ratified agreements, give them their portion; surely Allah is a witness over all things." This verse concerns inheritance and succession. It is stating simply that there is a new system of inheritance - that relatives receive a fixed share, and that any debts left over by the deceased must also be settled out of the inheritance fund. Prior to the revelation of the Qur'an women in the Arabia peninsula had been treated treated appallingly - kidnap and rape were common, as were excessive beatings. Furthermore, women were inherited like property! The Qur'an lead to a social revolution in which women went from being inherited to being guaranteed a fixed share of the inheritance. Now, understandably, this was not an easy sale to the pagan Arabs of Arabia. Particularly since the beginning of the next verse states that men will have to provide financial support to women: "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because THEY SPEND OUT OF THEIR PROPERTY". Some scholars conjecture that all the talk of obedience was used to sell the idea of women receiving a fixed share of inheritance to the pagan Arabs.

Now the section of the verse that is particularly problematic when taken out of its historical context: "As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly)." Firstly, in light of the treatment of women before the revelation of the Qur'an, a light beating - while completely objectionable and condemnable by modern standards - seems light in the historical context in which the verse was revealed. This verse is NOT an open invitation to beat women. Furthermore, the following verse (Qur'an 4:35) states: "And if you fear a breach between the two, then appoint judge from his people and a judge from her people; if they both desire agreement, Allah will effect harmony between them, surely Allah is Knowing, Aware." This verse states that if there is any disharmony between the two parties then the two parties should enter into arbitration in order to resolve their dispute harmoniously. This verse begins 'if you fear a breach' - in other words, before any problems result in admoniting or light beating appoint arbitraters between the parties.

Overall, in its proper historical and Qur'anic context the verse in question is far less problematic. Taken together the three verses state that women, rather than being inherited, will inherit a fixed share (once any outstanding debts have been taken care of). Women were effectively economically liberated for the first time. Secondly, rather than the appalling treatment of women prior to the revelation of the Qur'an, and the complete lack of regulations regarding how a women should be treated, a man could now only beat his wife lightly - and even then only as an absolute last resort. Furthermore, before such extreme measures are permitted, arbitration should be pursued in order to restore harmony between the parties. Again, this was a huge advance in women's rights.

Now literalists - a minority - would look at those verses and argue that they are frozen in stone and that they still apply today. A non-literalist - the majority of Muslims - would argue that those verses were revealed within a particular historical context. The modern world is very different from the Arabian peninsula at the time of Mohammad. Therefore we must look at the maqasid al-Shari'ah - the higher aims and objectives of the Shari'ah. What was the reasoning behind the verses? Firstly, that women should receive a fair share of the inheritance of the deceased's estate - and NEVER be inherited. In these modern times, when families are more nuclear and less tribal, that means a greater share than that guaranteed by the Qur'an. Secondly, women should not be subject to violence, and that if a dispute arises between a married couple then arbitration should be used to restore harmony before any unpleasantness occurs. This is the kind of reasoning which was used by the judges in Tunisia to develop a legal sytem based on Shari'ah law, which provides complete equality to women in all areas of public and private life (in accordance with the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW)) - for example marriage, divorce, inheritance, no polygamy, no honour killings etc.

All this is why I can honestly claim that Islam was originally intended to liberate the women of the Arabian peninsula. It's just unfortunate that it has been hijacked by a vocal minority of literalist, ahistorical, misogynists.

Best

Gwaan

P.S. The following video I posted on honour killings in Jordan is worth watching: http://www.videosift.com/video/Riz-Khan-The-Fight-Against-Honour-Killings-in-Jordan Unfortunately it died in the queue - please save it someone!!!. As it points out, honour killing predates Islam.

Fletchsays...

Despicable.


EDIT: On the other hand, this does walk the fence of VS's "no snuff" rule, if not violating it outright. Posting guidelines state:

"We do not want pornography or "snuff" films (in which people die). There are plenty of other sites that have these markets covered, but it's not for us."

jwraysays...

Snuff films are those whose only purpose is to portray death. Films that document war, history, or current events and incidentally portray death are an exception to that rule.

Fletchsays...

Well... says you. I think it's pretty clear in the rule (and why I c&p'd it here) that snuff is a video "in which people die". Nothing about "war, history, or current events". This has come up several times in the past, well before you signed up, so I'm unsure how you deemed those exceptions all by your lonesome. It's a horrible, and important, video. Unfortunately, it's still snuff, imo. Going by your exceptions to the rule, we could post just about anygoddamnedthing. That's what LiveLeak is for, and why I won't upvote LiveLeak vids (if I notice in time).

*blog

MINKsays...

what i object to here is the taking things out of context and attempting to demonise a whole religion, and all its followers.

I am pretty sure that "christian" society is still down on women (check how much they earn compared to men, and count the number of prime ministers)

Last time I checked, people from ALL religions beat and murdered other people. And I have to say it, an old book that maybe condones violence against women is a million miles away from a modern illegal deadly invasion of Iraq in the name of the "christian" god as defined by a leader who "talks to god" and doesn't realise it's the same god in Islam too.

So, ya know, i love the anti snuff rule, but i am all for freedom of speech, so let this post be here as an example of the irrationality of the poster, and an opportunity for people like gwaan to offer more context and debate around a commonly held myth about Islam.

FFS, has anyone who calls Islam "evil" actually read the old testament? It's nasty!
http://www.evilbible.com

Thumbs down for all literalists and fundamentalists and extremists of ALL persuasions.

MINKsays...

from the Bible:
**************
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

************
How that squares with "Thou shalt not kill" I will never know.

MINKsays...

yeah this is definitely snuff, and presented in a gratuitous and disgusting way. i really wish i hadn't seen it, these things get burnt into my brain forever. i guess i would downvote it if I could, but i value the debate it caused.

Fletchsays...

No discussion? Just returned? I *blogged this for a reason. The policy IS pretty clear, and if my memory serves (definitely not like it used to), has been argued and enforced for videos with less obvious death portrayed.

I upvoted the video. I think it's important. But it also breaks a pretty fundamental rule here that I happen to agree with, historical significance of the video notwithstanding. I think this deserves the ruling, clarification, or opinion of an admin before this is unceremoniously returned without discussion simply because you disagree and have the power to do so. (nothing personal, bl)

gwaansays...

The rule as it stands is clear - and this should really be discarded. However, I would suggest a slight alteration of the rule so that scenes of death in the proper context of a news story or documentary are acceptable.

choggiesays...

Anyone ever noticed the difference between television in Mexico, and Television in the States??? The kind of sophomoric sheit in both countries media is rampant, but Mexicans seem to gravitate to a lower common denominator than the U.S.......comes with exposure to culturally significant dynamics, education, and the dynamic nature of Humans growing wiser with each generation(at least thats the hope)

Western cultures had a common reformation, not without struggle, sacrifice, and change.......

There are those in the world who have yet to come up to speed with a dynamic that will take humanity to another paradigm......

Islam represents a throwback to times past, as does fundamentalist Christianity in many similar ways......both have the filter of the perceiver as a fulcrum-this subjective filter more often than not, creates an impasse in the otherwise dynamic mind-the impasse of ego, of stubborn adhesion to tradition and practice, and unwillingness to change, above all........We are change-and to fight this is to atrophy........

silvercordsays...

I'd like to see this subject dealt with on the Sift once for all time. I have one video in mind in which someone died and I know it is published. I have another in mind in which it was alleged that someone died and it is published. I will blog both of them today. I think the wording must do away with the word "snuff" for it to make any sense. But we do need some bright line here. At least on this. For you "no rules in a knife-fight" freaks, there is already a no porn stipulation.

This subject will continue to vex until it is dealt with.

Please?

Sc

gwaansays...

"Islam represents a throwback to times past, as does fundamentalist Christianity"

It's great the way people are willing to distinguish between fundamentalist Christianity and progressive moderate Christianity, but like to refer to Islam as if it were a homogenous faith. Fundamentalist Islam is a throwback to the past, but the vast majority of Muslims are looking to the future.

Farhad2000says...

"It's great the way people are willing to distinguish between fundamentalist Christianity and progressive moderate Christianity, but like to refer to Islam as if it were a homogenous faith."

So true.

grspecsays...

Hard to believe a video like this some day may not be published since it does spark this kind of debate. I think the snuff wording needs to be taken out too, and videos with deaths be allowed but with a separate nsfw-like tag. Also with some wording that stipulates it must be in a documentary or historical setting. I don't want to see accident videos where people die, but I can see the value of videos that use death within the context to achieve greater knowledge and spark debate about a subject. I think a new tag though is very important, nsfw is too vague.

James Roesays...

So we are updating the faq, to modernize the no snuff rule. Basically we have the rule because we don't want to be "faces of death sift." That said there are some things that should be available for debate. With that in mind we are going to revise it to allow death from reliable news sources as well as from documentaries.

The faq won't say this explicitly but we will still probably remove anything REALLY graphic, even if fox / cnn / whomever thought it was appropriate to air.

Goofball_Jonessays...

No no no...where are all the people that always go "well, this is there culture....how dare we impose our values or culture on others....we should respect other people's beliefs and traditions".

Where are those now? Hmmm?

Sketchsays...

The point should be that all religion is archaic, ridiculous and idiotic, be it fundamentalist, modern, Islam, Christian, Judaism, Wiccan, or whatever. At least I'm consistent, which is more than can be said of people of faith who can't stop fighting amongst sects of their own fucking faith! You are worshiping the same Gods and you still can't fucking agree? Clearly man is making the rules, and not God, so stop with the bullshit.

As for the snuff, I personally don't mind in this journalistic context. But it's a hard issue, given that this kind of thing plays all the time in the US, but other places like Germany can't even have red blood in their video games. It's a global community and not all sensibilities are the same. It's just too bad that we have religion to provide more insane labels to divide us as a species even further.

jwraysays...

--what i object to here is the taking things out of context and attempting to demonise a whole religion, and all its followers.

Nobody here or on CNN is demonizing a whole religion or denying that there are many different variations of Islam.

--I am pretty sure that "christian" society is still down on women (check how much they earn compared to men, and count the number of prime ministers)

This is true on average and irrelevant.

--Last time I checked, people from ALL religions beat and murdered other people.

There are probably some religions small enough that literally that is not the case, but in spirit you're right.

------ Mink wrote:
And I have to say it, an old book that maybe condones violence against women is a million miles away from a modern illegal deadly invasion of Iraq in the name of the "christian" god as defined by a leader who "talks to god" and doesn't realise it's the same god in Islam too.
------

Bush is a hallucinating fool, and the war was awfuly managed, but that's irrelevant to this video and that doesn't prove that it was a bad idea to take out one of the worst dictators in the world by force.

Bush is not so stupid to be unaware that both Islam and Christianity are based on the god of the Old Testament, the god of Judaism. It doesn't really matter whether two fabricated revelations describe the same imaginary being; what really matters is how various people believe that and act upon it. Whether the militant interpretation of this particular verse is right or not is irrelevant because you can't prove it, at least you can't prove it to them. The Koran certainly can be interpreted in a misogynistic way because it came from a patriarchal culture, just like the Bible. I believe both of these books contain a lot of foolishness.

-------- MINK wrote:
So, ya know, i love the anti snuff rule, but i am all for freedom of speech, so let this post be here as an example of the irrationality of the poster, and an opportunity for people like gwaan to offer more context and debate around a commonly held myth about Islam.
--------

Gwaan posted the same exact comment to another video of mine, and we had a lengthy debate about it.

-------- Mink Wrote:
FFS, has anyone who calls Islam "evil" actually read the old testament? It's nasty!
http://www.evilbible.com
--------

I agree with you.


-------- MINK wrote:
Thumbs down for all literalists and fundamentalists and extremists of ALL persuasions.
--------

I bet you are an extremist against Hitler. I bet you are an extremist against slavery. I bet you are an extremist against murder. Extremism itself is not the problem. Knowing what to feel strongly about and knowing what is worth fighting for is the hard part.

Regarding literalism, it is very useful to be able to carefully construct words to make a precise and unambiguous message. It is also useful to be able to invert that process. The trouble with most religious scriptures is that they're often either ambiguous, morally repugnant, or false (Sometimes there are bits of wisdom like in the sermon on the mount). Religious apologists metaphoricize any part of it they don't like as a psychological defense mechanism. Some passages could 'mean' almost anything with a loose enough metaphorical interpretation; it's sometimes a glorified Rorschach test. I prefer writings that actually mean something.


siftbotsays...

Tags for this video have been changed from 'evil, men, women, islam, tradition, feminism' to 'evil, men, women, islam, tradition, feminism, stoned, stoning, girl, death' - edited by lucky760

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