Bullying is really different between girls too, making it hard for teachers/adults to detect. Rarely will girls get physical with each other, instead, they use exclusion techniques, rumour-spreading and a host of other verbal/body language methods.

If a girl feels she doesn't want to make a fuss, or feels ashamed that she is a victim of bullying, sometimes it can go on undetected for a very long time. I also think that after a long enough period of this, girls will often turn around and become the bully themselves, in the same way that they experienced.

I was bullied for a long time, the root of the problem being that my parents told me it was not OK to fight back (Mom was that religious; Dad was a pacifist and also didn't like disagreeing with Mom). They told me to ignore the bullying (I'm getting hit and spit on, btw, which the folks knew), avoid the bullies (bullies, it turns out, will run all the way across a schoolyard to hit you some more), and tell the teacher (who did little, but then what could they do? I realize now that many of them were telling me, in code, to retaliate).

Anyway, the only thing that worked and I believe the only thing that does work against bullying (the physical kind, at least) is fighting back. I finally did -- I wish to God I hadn't taken so long to do it, but I really wanted to obey my parents -- and when that happened I stopped getting roughed up immediately. I didn't even hurt any of them that I know of, so it's not as if I made them scared or anything. Most of the other harassment, verbal etc., stopped too.

So anyway, novote, since much of the stuff this video prescribes at the end did sweet fuck-all for this guy. If I didn't think this vid would safely make it out of the queue without me, I'd probably up it in the name of raising awareness, but it'll do fine, so I stay my hand.

EDIT: Changed my mind; upvoting because of the discussion.

Interesting topic in that I have a child in grade 1, who, I hope has not experienced it yet.
I'm upvoting this, not so much for the video but for Calvados' comment. Thank you for your honesty, and I will remember that, if I ever need to give advice about bullying.

emo crap.
FIGHT BACK.

@gargoyle: I'm sincerely glad to be of service. As they say, if it helps even one person, it'll be -- maybe not worth it, but more okay, anyway.

^What do you do if it's a girl bullying a boy? Not physically, but verbally? That's what happened to my son. There are two girls in his class who constantly verbally abuse just about everyone. They tell my son he's stupid and a geek. I know they say the first thing just to hurt, because he's the smartest kid in the class. The second insult is just to make him feel like a loser. So would you suggest that he hit them?

There's more to bullying than just violence.

>> ^Memorare:
emo crap.
FIGHT BACK.


My, what thoughtful commentary! At least calvados explained his position, and though I disagree with it I still respect his position. You, however, can go to hell. Fuck you very much.

@KP: You'll note that I said "the only thing that worked and I believe the only thing that does work against bullying (the physical kind, at least) is fighting back". So no, I did not and wouldn't advise that he hit them. Come on, man.

Believe you me, I underwent lots of verbal bullying as well. I remember once during a free period when one Chris F. kept stalking up to my desk repeatedly to whisper that I was worthless and slap me lightly about the head. I'd never cried from the pain of being hit, and the slaps didn't hurt, but after a few of his visits my tears rolled. That was just one example of (mostly) verbal bullying that I experienced; I got it almost every school day for a period of 2-3 years. I got it more often than the physical abuse. So yes, I know there's more to bullying than just physical force, thanks very much. I heard for so long from a variety of my classmates that I was useless, ugly, etc etc that I ended up believing it and it took years to crawl out from under that. So yes, KP, there's more to it than just force. You used the term violence to indicate striking, but I assure you there's violence in words as well.

I don't have all the answers about this, KP, although I get the sense you weren't genuinely asking me for any. That said, maybe I can say something that you can end up using anyhow. For my part, I tried to ignore the harsh words as best I could, though it didn't stop them coming and you can't fully block them out anyway, at least not when you're a child. Perhaps that's the best anyone can do, though. Did you think I'd say that he should talk shit in response to them? That might work, but probably not, and either way it seems like a lot of energy to sacrifice to negativity (which these unhappy girls are already doing to themselves). The single best thing that you can do is buck him up and tell him he's a great kid, that you're proud of him, that you love him, all the other parent things that you know better than I since I don't have kids. Tell him that this will pass. Between you reminding him of what he's worth and him doing his best to shut out the namecalling -- that's probably as good as it gets and will probably be enough. You could also try meeting with his teacher to discuss the situation, and it is surely worth a shot since it's one more thing you can do, although in my experience (many meetings between my parents and my teachers to discuss this very topic) it will amount to bupkus. Still, go for it. I don't think I'd recommend talking to the bullies' parents as this also generally results in sweet dick and the bullies will come to school riled up the next day and seeking revenge if mommy and daddy cared enough to give them hell.

To sum up: ignoring is probably the best way he can deal with verbal bullying (while you do your best when he comes home to give him courage and make him feel that he's worth everything; you patch him up, you are the Medic). That said, telling him he's a great smart kid if ever he's getting punched and slammed into lockers is not going to restore the balance. Ignoring is not enough when it's physical because there is greater harm being done, psychological more than bodily. He will need to fight back, probably only once or twice, and then it won't be fun for the bullies anymore. The bullies aren't fighters and they aren't looking for a fight; they've found that they get a hot mean rush out of slugging a human punching bag. It is like a drug hit for them and if one waits for the bullies to outgrow their fisticuffs one will be waiting far too long. (Obviously this is from my own experience and thinking on the matter; others' mileage may vary, but it seems to me that kids are the same kids wherever you go, with bullies the same too, and I don't see how different it could be for somebody else.)

I'm sorry for your son's predicament, KP, it bothers me every time I hear about a kid getting tormented by his peers. I hope it goes well. Buck him up. One request, against the day when he may find himself actually getting hit: please, please don't tell him he's not allowed to defend himself.

^Calvados: I appreciate that you took the time to explain yourself. I didn't make myself clear when I wrote my previous remark because frankly I was a little upset by the glib response from Memorare. Upon rereading my comment I'm a little embarrassed, because I don't like talking to complete strangers like that. I apologize.

Of course I tell my son that he's a great, smart kid and not to let those girls get to him. He knows he has me as a safe haven to unload all his problems, and I'm glad he shares with me. I've explained to him in detail that those girls are simply jealous and just want him to feel as bad as they do about themselves, and sometimes that actually makes him feel better. Other times it doesn't. After all, he's only a 9 yr. old kid who doesn't fully understand what motivates people to act in the ways they do. Plus he's also got ADHD and obsessive-compulsive disorder (the latter of which I also have), so it's not easy for him to let go of things.

Long story short: I respect your opinion and it sounds like you respect mine. We both understand there's no easy answer to every bullying situation, so I don't think we're actually TOO far away from each other on this issue. Thanks for sharing.

^KP: Good stuff. If the jealousy explanation does help (even if only part time) then it's better than nothing and one more useful tool to employ. My father actually took to using that exact same angle but in my case it couldn't help because, as I say, I was getting thumped, and while it's hard to ignore words, it's impossible to ignore being hit and tripped and thrown to the ground. I was also kind of OC, too, as was (is?) my dad, incidentally. (I'm honestly not convinced that "they're just jealous" is generally correct re bullies, although it's absolutely true that bullies want to make others feel as bad and small as they do.)

I do respect your opinion and I'm glad that this discussion is happening. There are grey areas too, of course, which I haven't addressed: what if it's thumbtacks on his chair, or gum in his hair? Does that call for a physical response? I don't know. What if it's a girl that's doing the hitting, rare as that seems to be? What about a climate where kids sometimes bring weapons to school now, does that change the equation? (although none of the bullies appeared to want to start a cycle of violence after I fought back; they just got confused and stopped their shit.) Those and others are things that are outside my experience and I can't say anything authoritatively there. I agree we're probably pretty alike after all in looking at this ugly thing. Thank you as well, KP.

*findthumb

The thumbnail image for this video has been updated - findthumb requested by dotdude.

KP, I appreciate your dilemma. Girls aren't physical, so they use their nasty tongues. My daughter suffered the same from girls in her class (grade 2)and the horrible part about it all, was when she told me and I told the teacher and the principal gave them a verbal dressing down, it only got worse. It got so bad, she would scream and cry when I dropped her off at school and after a few weeks of this, we pulled her out.

I don't know what the answer is, because we never really resolved the problem. The next school was a little better, but not much. The girls were nasty to each other and the boys. In some ways, I think they have an advantage over boys, because their words are aimed right where it hurts and boys probably wouldn't retaliate in the way they are used to, so I can imagine they would feel quite impotent.

Schools don't deal with this problem effectively, in my opinion. A verbal dressing down by the teachers doesn't work and in the case you have described, retaliation by the victim would probably get them into trouble.

Is bullying Siftbot OK?

School is essentially like part time prison for kids, avoiding bullying never works nor telling the teacher. Like calvados said, the same advice never worked for me either, until one day I just lost my temper and nearly choked someone. After that no one fucked with me. It wasn't because I retaliated violently but mostly because I stood up for myself. Thats different I believe.

However I had to do the process all over again in every school I been to because my family moved alot, it wasn't always phyiscally sometimes it was just verbal.

>> ^Farhad2000:
It wasn't because just because I retaliated violently but mostly ebcause I stood up for myself.


I think that's correct. I'd like to emphasize that when I say a kid who's being physically aggressed will have to fight back to make it stop, I am not saying that the kid is going to have to try to obliterate the bully. When I fought back, I remember that I shoved one of the perps against the lockers and another one I popped in the stomach. I wasn't a particularly strong or physical boy so I'm pretty sure I didn't inflict pain either time, and the perps didn't show any signs of it; what they did show was surprise, lots of it.

One other thing the parents reading this could do is to not construct the fiction for their children that being kind to others means the others will always be all nice-nice in return. Nor should they tell their children that the way to stop somebody from being mean to them is to treat the mean person even more nicely, because, I assure you, no.

I second calvados's comments.. this guy wailed on me after getting off the bus each day..my stepdad, a former football player, advised me to pop him in the nose. Hyperventilating, I got off the bus before him and popped him. His parents called mine to complain (!) and that was the end of that.

^winkler: Aw, none of my perps ever became celebrities AFAIK

I can totally relate to being all freaked out when the time came to fight back, btw. I knew I was about to do it and I've probably never pumped as much adrenaline at as that moment. I was walking down the hallway towards them all tense and wooden and I felt something like fear although I don't know if it was -- I mean I wasn't afraid of getting hit (haha, nope, too accustomed to that), or of sending them to hospital because I was sure I wouldn't do that much damage, or getting punished. Maybe I was just freaking out because I knew that everything was about to change and that I was about to be the one to make it happen.

It wasn't even as if I never knew how to scrap; the first time I can ever remember getting pushed around (Patrick M., Grade 3, recess, it was winter) I was startled but I pushed back and then he was on the ground and I was sitting on him. I socked him a few times in the chest, too, although he was wearing a fat parka which I'm sure absorbed almost all of my punches, and then I let him up. I was bewildered and angered by the incident, and he didn't touch me again. So that was the first time it ever happened, but then I went home after school, Mom asked how my day was, I told her in detail about the scrap, and she was all "You did WHAT?! Don't you ever, EVER hit somebody ever again!!"

I got more than one talking-to like that in the future, including the time that she said I'd be crossing her+Dad+God if I ever hit back. That kind of thing sticks with you when you're a kid, especially a God-fearing kid who really wants to be good and obedient to his folks -- and maybe that's part of what felt like fear when I was walking up to my perps, knowing I was about to give them a dose; there was part of me that felt like I was about to do wrong. The imprint was a deep one.

Now, of course, I'm pretty sure that God did not prefer me to eat knuckle sandwiches for a couple years rather than return fire promptly. Parents and future parents: once again, be careful what you say to your kids.

Winkler, what does wailed on mean? Are you serious, it's the same guy? Wow! So kid bullies grow up to be adult psychos?

@persamaphone: to be "wailed on" = to be beaten. Not to be confused with, say, "that chick can wail", which usually means to sing rock and roll songs.

I doubt bullies grow up to be adult psychos as a rule. More dysfunctional than most, though, maybe. I wonder how many young bullies are the product of a rough home life. I'm pretty sure it's not so easily explained as "their parents do it to them, so they do it to other kids", although that could easily play a part. Kids are often cruel for no good reason and I'd guess that a lot of the ones that engage in bullying come from appallingly average homes with no history of domestic abuse.

Changed my mind; upvoting because of the discussion.

*teens *fear

Adding video to channels (Fear, Teens) - requested by alien_concept.