Interesting point about student debt once leaving school. Is that accurate in the states? quarter million dollars in debt before you've even started working?

According to findaid.org, average cumulative debt for a medical PhD student is $127,272.

I don't know where Rep. Tiahrt gets his statistics, or what constitutes "many". But he's just lying out of his ass.

>> ^Fade:
Interesting point about student debt once leaving school. Is that accurate in the states? quarter million dollars in debt before you've even started working?


Oh, heck no. I got my Bachelor's from a fairly expensive private university. If I'd relied on entirely on loans instead of scholarships, I'd be something like 90k in debt. A public university would typically cost half that.

You'd have to go to an expensive private college then follow it up immediately with a prestigious graduate education to be 250k in debt. But with that kind of education, you wouldn't have much difficulty paying it off over the typical ten year loan period.

Sorry HadouKen, to say that $250k can only come after an expensive, loan-heavy private undergrad followed by an expensive, loan-heavy professional degree is just not based in fact. I understand why you extrapolated from undergrad to grad school, but undergrad is not grad school, and certainly not law or medical school. Here is an example of a cost of attendance sheet from a well-known medical school. Take notice that the overall cost for this academic year is $70,364. Now adjust for the fact that the "Housing" line item is probably understated, and that nowhere does this list make allotments for incidentals, expenses, etc.--ie. food, entertainment, insurance, new laptop. Now adjust over a three year period at a rate increase of usually 7-10%. (I won't do math here; you get the idea...total cost is prob about $300k). Many if not most medical students do get some scholarship, but how much do you think? Unless they get half or more off tuition ($20k per year), cost of attendance is already over $250k. Note also that these students cannot work during this three year period. Unlike law school, there are no highly paid summer internships to mitigate the intense cost of attendance. In short, medical school is ridiculously expensive, and graduates frequently come out of school owing more than $200,000. Just to give you some personal stuff, I'm in my first year at a competitive NY law school, I've got $25k in scholarship, and I'm already $50k in debt, and this is week 5. Luckily, if I do well enough, I'll make a lot of it back during a summer internship in a big firm (yes, yes, working for the Man; sorry, they pay more than you can imagine for a summer), but the same is not true of med students. I'll get out owing (hopefully) around $100-150k, but medical school is far more demanding and they don't get the big kick-back like we do.

To volumptuous's comment: I couldn't find the number you quoted on findaid. Was that for this year? I found this fact sheet for the class of 2007. Looks like their debt was a bit above that average you quoted. Remember also that these are averages; many fell below these numbers, and many fell above.

Also, this guy Tiahrt is full of shit.

Thumbs up for Kansas

You'll notice, Rhesus, that I said you'd have to go get a prestigious graduate education to be 250k or more in debt. Emory certainly qualifies; it's been ranked in the top 20 medical schools in the nation.

The average debt for a medical student is 150k, which is much more manageable. People who went to private colleges and prestigious medical schools will have more debt, and many will have less.

Only about 10% of the US population has completed any sort of post-graduate education, most of which are Master's degrees, which have a much lower cost. The average person graduating with a Master's degree can expect to owe somewhere between 50k and 75k, though again, a really high end education costs more. A professional degree costs the most of any, but only 2% of the population has one.

So when you talk about people coming out of the school system with 250k in debt, you're talking about maybe a quarter of a percent of the population.

In engineering and science disciplines, you typically get free tuition, and get paid as a teaching or research assistant. Nothing like that exists in medical school?

I also think that if you have gone through a $250k+ program, you're going to start out making $250k+ in salary a year.

And all of this misses the point anyway. In Countries like the UK and France there is nothing stopping a Doctor from going into private practice and making a fortune anyway.

Ken, please. This guy is talking about doctors, ie. med school grads. And you didn't say prestigious, you said expensive. And about the 150k number? First, it's unfounded, you have no facts to back it up. Second, that is average debt, meaning as I wrote above that many people fall above and many people fall below. We can't quibble over the number this guy quotes (the $250k), it's just too close to the truth. Med students, among others, come out of school with this kind of debt. It's just true.

I'm still paying off my college loans. It's been ten years since I graduated college, too.

Yes, the average for medical PhD student is $127,272.00

But what doucheface was trying to portray here is that $250k is the average debt, hence using his rhetorical weasel term of "many". But we know that "many" is still only around 10%, of which, an even smaller number of that are actually med students, so fuck this guy.

The plan wouldn't cap the doctor's salary, only what he can charge them specifically. Insurance companies already do that. Big whoop.

I'm a doctor. I had minimal loans during undergrad. My medical school alone (with living expenses for those four years) put my loan tab at about $250,000. Less than $15,000 of that was undergrad. After med school, you have internship and residency, which pays $25k to $50k depending. Yes, doctors eventually make money, but it takes years and years and years.

EDIT: Oh, and yes. I'm totally for health care reform. I think the public option is a good idea. The insurers have far too much power and THEY are the ones rationing health care. Health care should not be a "For Profit" enterprise.

ANOTHER EDIT: My med school was not considered "prestigious"

ANOTH

Let me blow your minds.

Ever considered that the outrageous price of medical school is due to the outrageous price of health care? And that bringing down the price of healthcare would also bring down the price of medical school?

Why should it be any more expensive to teach someone medicine than teach someone engineering, for example? The equipment required for my job costs $2.5 billion, for example. Are you suggesting a private care clinic costs more than that? Why is it so much more to teach you, than me, if the cost of advanced engineering equipment is orders of magnitude greater than the cost of medical equipment?

I thought that med students had to attend school for a few more years than something like an engineer. If I'm right, then naturally the cost will be more. If I'm not, then I guess I'm just mistaken.

For and engineer or scientist, 5-10 years may be spent in graduate school for a PhD.

Maybe you Americans should also look into some kind of education reform...

Those numbers are just mind boggling. Although I guess it must be motivating to study hard when it costs that much and you're in a hurry to start paying back those loans! But hundreds of thousands?!

>> ^ajkido:
Maybe you Americans should also look into some kind of education reform...
Those numbers are just mind boggling. Although I guess it must be motivating to study hard when it costs that much and you're in a hurry to start paying back those loans! But hundreds of thousands?!


Well, that's what happens when the entire culture of a country has degraded to the point that the only things that are important are the increase of profit and acquisition of wealth.

>> ^longde:
For and engineer or scientist, 5-10 years may be spent in graduate school for a PhD.


5 years, maybe... any more than that and you're just dragging your heels and/or doing it part-time.

No, I have known at least two people who have been going full bore and took 10 years. They were both doing physics PhDs at two different institutions. I did a PhD in Mech Eng, and that took 5.5 years, and I wasn't lollygagging. That was about average at my univ, in my program.

Engineering is much more academically difficult than medicine, imho. Anyone with a rich enough daddy can get a MD. Getting a PhD in advanced engineering...well it doesn't matter how rich your daddy is if you can't pass your classes.

And as longde said...the time required to finish a PhD and MD is really not that much different...

Our level of medical knowledge is barbaric. Cancer? Cut out the tumor. Heart disease? Cut out your left ventricle. Diabetes? Cut off yout foot. Periodontal disease? Cut out your teeth. The only reason medical science seems advanced is all the engineering equipment they use...x-rays, ultra-sounds, microscopic cameras, pacemakers, etc. etc...but thats not medical science at all...thats engineering.

Unless you are surgeon, why do you need a $250,000, 10 year education to google symptoms on Web MD and treatments on drugs.com? Even my friend who is a hemophiliac can give himself shots, so what purpose does a general-practice doctor serve in the age of the internet?

Just for the record, I don't know how much more difficult or not medicine is than engineering. I suspect it is more difficult because of the necessary heavy intersection of ethics, and the complexity of the human body.

And I thought because of the residency requirement, getting an MD was a much longer process.